I'll admit to deleting without reading a lot of the "over protective
dog" thread. It got boring with people repeating themselves a while
ago. So I apologize if this subject has been brought up. Here's my
question: What now?


I think the cabal is pretty much in agreement that Peter shouldn't have
bred Gretchen, that if he was going to breed her he should have known a
lot more about breeding and Danes and should have gotten a number of
tests done. That's in the past.


Is there any concensus on what would be the best thing to do now?


Peter, how far along is she? When are the puppies due? How is she
acting during the pregnancy? How's her health?


Cabal, what's the collective wisdom on spaying a bitch during pregnancy?
Are there risks? Is there anything that might turn an earlier bad
decision into a present not-as-bad situation?


(I know it's useless to try to direct where a conversation goes ahead of
time, but I'm going to do it anyway. Could we PLEASE keep away from the
human abortion issue and keep to talking about dogs? Deep breath, a dog
is not a person; a puppy is not a baby.)


--Lia

On Feb 8, 10:10 am, Julia Altshuler wrote:
I'll admit to deleting without reading a lot of the "over protective
dog" thread. It got boring with people repeating themselves a while
ago. So I apologize if this subject has been brought up. Here's my
question: What now?

I think the cabal is pretty much in agreement that Peter shouldn't have
bred Gretchen, that if he was going to breed her he should have known a
lot more about breeding and Danes and should have gotten a number of
tests done. That's in the past.

Is there any concensus on what would be the best thing to do now?

Peter, how far along is she? When are the puppies due? How is she
acting during the pregnancy? How's her health?

Cabal, what's the collective wisdom on spaying a bitch during pregnancy?
Are there risks? Is there anything that might turn an earlier bad
decision into a present not-as-bad situation?

(I know it's useless to try to direct where a conversation goes ahead of
time, but I'm going to do it anyway. Could we PLEASE keep away from the
human abortion issue and keep to talking about dogs? Deep breath, a dog
is not a person; a puppy is not a baby.)

--Lia

Lia,

There is always a risk in doing a spay, simply because there is always
a risk with anesthesia. However, spay during pregnancy is not as
risky as c-section, pyometra or a spay done during estrus.

Beth, posting via google at work

"Julia Altshuler" wrote in message
. ..
I'll admit to deleting without reading a lot of the "over protective dog"
thread. It got boring with people repeating themselves a while ago. So I
apologize if this subject has been brought up. Here's my question: What
now?


I think the cabal is pretty much in agreement that Peter shouldn't have
bred Gretchen, that if he was going to breed her he should have known a
lot more about breeding and Danes and should have gotten a number of tests
done. That's in the past.

Thank you. I agree.

Is there any concensus on what would be the best thing to do now?


Peter, how far along is she? When are the puppies due? How is she acting
during the pregnancy? How's her health?

She was mated on the 18, 19 & 20th of Jan. Her expected due date is about
Mar. 21.
Her health and temperment are both good. She is sleeping more than usual.

Cabal, what's the collective wisdom on spaying a bitch during pregnancy?
Are there risks? Is there anything that might turn an earlier bad
decision into a present not-as-bad situation?

I understand some peoples convictions, but I won't do this unless deemed
medically necessary by her vet.
Peter

(I know it's useless to try to direct where a conversation goes ahead of
time, but I'm going to do it anyway. Could we PLEASE keep away from the
human abortion issue and keep to talking about dogs? Deep breath, a dog
is not a person; a puppy is not a baby.)


--Lia

"Peter" wrote in message:

She was mated on the 18, 19 & 20th of Jan. Her expected due date is about
Mar. 21.

I have a question for those who know this sort of thing. It is my
understanding that a bitch can conceive on multiple days during her heat.
How does this affect the puppies, because I'm thinking that some pups will
be a couple of days younger than others. Am I missing something? Are those
the ones that turn out to be runts? Or maybe I'm wrong about the basic
premise.

Suja

Is the spay done now preferable to allowing the pups to be born and
trying to find homes for them?


What about if Peter took responsibility (financial and commitment) for
spaying and neutering the pups as part of finding homes for them?


As I said in my earlier post, I'm trying to find the best course of
action now in an already bad situation.


--Lia

In article ,
Julia Altshuler wrote:

Is the spay done now preferable to allowing the pups to be born and
trying to find homes for them?


What about if Peter took responsibility (financial and commitment) for
spaying and neutering the pups as part of finding homes for them?


As I said in my earlier post, I'm trying to find the best course of
action now in an already bad situation.


--Lia

He SAYS he has home for all of them (even though he has no idea how many
"all" *is*), with family and friends, that they aren't for sale.

The responsibilities of a responsible breeder are huge. I can't fathom
being up to the task. I see the work that Marcie's breeder did, before
during and after puppies, as well as her commitment for the life of the
puppies, and I'm in awe. Especially because she's an insanely busy
person in the rest of her life.

That's not to say people like Montana didn't do a bang up job of
stepping up to the plate when they found themselves "with puppies", and
did a heck of a lot of work. Just that the effort going in to planning
a well bred litter, having clear goals, being able to choose what
puppy(ies) to keep to be best for a breeding program, choosing the sire
and dam with great care, getting titles (and in this case, not
conformation titles) on the dogs to prove who they are, etc, etc, etc,
are quite daunting.

--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com

Suja wrote:

I have a question for those who know this sort of thing. It is my
understanding that a bitch can conceive on multiple days during her heat.
How does this affect the puppies, because I'm thinking that some pups will
be a couple of days younger than others. Am I missing something?

Nope, you're not missing anything. Utah recently sired his first litter
via fresh-chilled artificial insemination. We did inseminations on days
1, 3 and 4 of the dam's fertile period as determined by quantititative
progesterone testing.

We ended up with two 15 ounce puppies, seven puppies in the 9-10 ounce
range, and one that was only 5 ounces. Cupcake - the little one - failed
to thrive and in spite of intensive nursing died at 10 days of age :-(.

At any rate, given the difference in the sizes of the puppies, it's a
pretty good bet that each "batch" of puppies was conceived on a separate
insemination.

Are those the ones that turn out to be runts?

Runts at birth, yes, but that doesn't necessarily equate to small size
in adulthood. K.C., my first Briard, was the runt of his litter, but
ended up 2.5" taller than the maximum height in the standard - HUGE!

HTH,

Dianne

"montana wildhack" wrote in message:

It was horrible losing one of our puppies and
the amount of work was overwhelming for the 8-9 weeks we had them.

You and DH did a super job with the pups, IMO. I'm pretty sure we wouldn't
have fared half as well (I am deeply attached to my sleep). While we
would've gotten through it, it would more than likely not have been with
both our sanities intact.

So I can't imagine that Peter is going to stop the pregnancy, so I
suggest Googling the SuperPuppy program and we can all help supply
links to help give those puppies a head start. He's got a lot of work
to do to "do right" by those puppies.

I already gave him the link to the Super Puppy program. I really hope that
he takes the advice and information he has been given to heart, and does an
absolute bang-up job with these pups.

Also, I agree with you that he should be lining up good, responsible homes
for all the potential puppies. I can't tell you how many times I've heard
'All my friends said they wanted one, but then decided the puppy was too
much work, or they didn't have time right now, or their vacation plans
interfered, or ....' Fact is, not too many people want to commit themselves
to having giant, slobbery dogs around that absolutely require a good deal of
training (not to mention, gobs of the right kind of food).

Suja

Janet Boss wrote:
He SAYS he has home for all of them (even though he has no idea how many
"all" *is*), with family and friends, that they aren't for sale.

My two suggestions would be 1) an ultrasound (at the appropriate time) to
get a better estimate of the number of homes required, and 2) a
behaviorist, just to be sure the stress of new motherhood and raising a
litter doesn't increase Gretchen's undesirable behaviors. Hips and elbows
can be done when she's spayed (iirc, Peter said that was the plan). His
trusted vet can

"montana wildhack" wrote in message
news:2008020822272411643-montana@wildhackcominvalid...
On 2008-02-08 20:23:15 -0500, "Suja" said:


Even if he had a waiting list and healthy deposits, people still back out.
And in Tiny's family's case, they
had at least one pup returned. All our puppy families had to agree to
return them to us no questions asked if necessary. (!)


Our's are also. No matter how long a time they have been gone. the
contract signed says 'they must be returned to us if for any reason they
are no longer wanted at their adoptive homes.' They have all been
micro-chipped and neutered. At least three of the five are using the vet
practice that contributed all their pre and postnatal care. The adoptive
families have our phone numbers and email addresses. We all love those
pups.