Handsome "Jack" Morrison wrote:

But the vast majority of people are fat because they just eat too damn
much of the wrong foods, and don't get enough exercise.


True on the surface, bu it's not that simple.

Imagine 2 women. They're close to the same age, are similar heights,
similar weights, similar health backgrounds. They've just had lunch
together where they ordered identical chef salad entrees.

One ordered the salad because it was exactly what she wanted. She loves
all the vegetables, the slight bit of lemon & olive oil dressing. She
thought the few cheese slices were delicious and marveled over the
delicate flavor of the fresh herbs.

The other ordered the salad because the nutritionist (fat counselor)
told her to. She painfully chewed through all the greens like she was a
cow chewing her cud. She measured the dressing, wished she could have
had more, or maybe the nice blue cheese over there. She thought they
were chintzy with the cheese. Oh hell, why couldn't she have gotten the
grilled cheese sandwich like she wanted.

The first exhibited no self-control. By the end of the meal, she
couldn't eat another bite. She felt happy, satisfied, maybe a little
stuffed.

The second exhibited extreme self-control. By the end of the meal, she
was hungry. She passed the dessert tray with longing in her eyes. If
it were her last meal on earth, you can bet she'd get something to eat.

Yet the 2 women are the same dress size.
The first has been a size 6 her whole adult life.
The second is thrilled that she's finally dieted down to a size 6.

The first loves to ride her bike after work in the park. If time and
family obligations mean she doesn't get her bike ride in, she feels out
of sorts.

The second exercises because she has to-- but she'd rather read a good
book. Or any book. (Before you call her lazy, and because these are my
fictional characters, let's say woman #2 hates television and is a
tireless and award winning employee at her high powered office job.)


Nowhere in the scientific literature is there anything to account for
the differences between the 2 women.


I'm convinced that a great deal of the way our society puts down fat
people boils down to blaming the victim. It's a societal way of telling
a woman (could be a man but is usually a woman) that she's unlucky so
we're going to punish her for it.


--Lia

In article ,
Julia Altshuler wrote:
Nowhere in the scientific literature is there anything to account for
the differences between the 2 women.

What, you've done a search? "Nowhere?"

I've read your post three times and couldn't figure out what
you're trying to demonstrate. I mean, on the one hand I
think it's extremely important to eat well and get a lot of
exercise, but I also think that "society" (hand-wavey term
for individuals of ill will) craps all over fat people. But
I still have no idea what the point was of your made-up
story.

As for "Jack" and Paul, I figure if they're actually
concerned about the health ramifications of excess weight
they wouldn't use "fat" as an insult. Seriously.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis -

Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community

Julia Altshuler wrote:
Handsome "Jack" Morrison wrote:

But the vast majority of people are fat because they just eat too damn
much of the wrong foods, and don't get enough exercise.


True on the surface, bu it's not that simple.

Imagine 2 women.
[Account of differences in appetite, food preferences, exercise
preferences, etc. snipped]

Nowhere in the scientific literature is there anything to account for
the differences between the 2 women.

There are glimmerings - differences in number of fat cells,
related both to genetics and dietary habits as a child;
differences between life-long slimness and yo-yo dieting.
Differences in hunger-control hormone production (e.g. leptin,
ghrelin), differences in sleep patterns, differences in an
emerging number of genetic factors that modulate hormones and
behavior.

But yeah, understanding is still a long ways off.

I'm convinced that a great deal of the way our society puts down fat
people boils down to blaming the victim. It's a societal way of telling
a woman (could be a man but is usually a woman) that she's unlucky so
we're going to punish her for it.

And when a solid scientific explanation of these types of
differences emerges, don't expect understanding and compassion on
the part of the public ("low-information voters") to follow close
on its heels. :-(

FurPaw


--
The plural of anecdote is not proof.

To reply, unleash the dog.

In article ,
FurPaw wrote:
And when a solid scientific explanation of these types of
differences emerges, don't expect understanding and compassion on
the part of the public ("low-information voters") to follow close
on its heels. :-(

After this bruising Democratic primary I'd like to see
"low-information voters" retired for awhile. Not forever,
but for now. Anyway, if this is a nature vs. nurture
discussion I think we have several examples of how those go
once they enter the public discourse. Better than you'd
expect, but not perfectly.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis -

Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community

On Mon, 09 Jun 2008 17:09:02 -0400, Julia Altshuler
wrote:

Handsome "Jack" Morrison wrote:

But the vast majority of people are fat because they just eat too damn
much of the wrong foods, and don't get enough exercise.

True on the surface, bu it's not that simple.

Yeah, in my opinion, it pretty much is that simple, Lia.

[...]
The second exercises because she has to-- but she'd rather read a good
book. Or any book. (Before you call her lazy, and because these are my
fictional characters, let's say woman #2 hates television and is a
tireless and award winning employee at her high powered office job.)

None of that really matters much, in my opinion.

The only thing that really matters is self-control. If woman #2 does
better than woman #1, all things being equal, and still gains more
weight than woman #1, then woman #2 still isn't doing enough.

Some men/women have to work harder to become successful than others,
too, but, again, that's life. We play the cards we're dealt.

Nowhere in the scientific literature is there anything to account for
the differences between the 2 women.

Yeah, there are probably genetic differences, but the laws of
thermodynamics still apply to everyone.

If you eat more calories than you burn, you're going to gain weight.

I'm convinced that a great deal of the way our society puts down fat
people boils down to blaming the victim.

Sure, that happens. But it also works the other way around too, and a
lot of people want to blame society (or others) for their being fat,
and a lot of people like to blame society (or others) for their being
skinny, too.

We should stop blaming others for our problems.

If I get fat some day, trust me, Lia, it won't be your fault, it'll be
mine.

It's a societal way of telling
a woman (could be a man but is usually a woman) that she's unlucky so
we're going to punish her for it.

There is no Utopia, Lia.

Handsome men and beautiful women probably have an edge in life, no
question about it, but that's life. Same with smarts, money, etc.

Life isn't fair.

Not every man can be as handsome as I am, and not every woman can be
as beautiful as Salma Hayek.

Heh.


--
Handsome "Jack" Morrison

This is the kind of crap that happens when fascists like Melinda gain power.
http://www.kansascity.com/105/story/654147.html

Pakistan sends a delegation to the European Union to demand that Europe crack
down on free speech and enforce Islamic law - or else. spit
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/arti...Speech_or_Else

In praise of CO2.
http://www.financialpost.com/story.html?id=569586

Gee. And this guy is better than Bush, how, exactly? sigh
http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/20...ding-kids.html

"The Left is very invested in both preemptively delegitimizing criticism of Obama
and framing opponents as de facto bigots." Boy, does that sound familiar. Hi, Melinda!
http://thenextright.com/jon-henke/le...h-2008-tactics

Mexican TB bugs. Doing the jobs that American TB bugs won't do.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24954041/

Global Temperature Dives in May.
http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com...-dives-in-may/

Why I am an anti-intellectual. Hi, Melinda!
http://prawfsblawg.blogs.com/prawfsb...am-an-ant.html

Saudi Montana?
http://blogs.dailymail.com/donsurber...saudi-montana/

A Dark Corner of Europe, Part I.
http://www.michaeltotten.com/archive...k-corner-o.php

Obama, and his Church of the Poisoned Mind, finally decide to split.
http://proteinwisdom.com/?p=12370

Everything You Ever Needed to Know About the Democratic Party.
http://corner.nationalreview.com/pos...kxOTI5YThhYjQ=

Americans are paying a terrible price for the Democratic Party's perverse energy policies.
http://www.powerlineblog.com/archive.../05/020589.php

On 9 Jun 2008 17:17:22 -0400, (Melinda Shore) wrote:

As for "Jack" and Paul, I figure if they're actually
concerned about the health ramifications of excess weight
they wouldn't use "fat" as an insult. Seriously.

And I figure if you're actually concerned about racism and bigotry,
you wouldn't throw those words around so willy-nilly. Seriously.

--
Handsome "Jack" Morrison

This is the kind of crap that happens when fascists like Melinda gain power.
http://www.kansascity.com/105/story/654147.html

Pakistan sends a delegation to the European Union to demand that Europe crack
down on free speech and enforce Islamic law - or else. spit
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/arti...Speech_or_Else

In praise of CO2.
http://www.financialpost.com/story.html?id=569586

Gee. And this guy is better than Bush, how, exactly? sigh
http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/20...ding-kids.html

"The Left is very invested in both preemptively delegitimizing criticism of Obama
and framing opponents as de facto bigots." Boy, does that sound familiar. Hi, Melinda!
http://thenextright.com/jon-henke/le...h-2008-tactics

Mexican TB bugs. Doing the jobs that American TB bugs won't do.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24954041/

Global Temperature Dives in May.
http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com...-dives-in-may/

Why I am an anti-intellectual. Hi, Melinda!
http://prawfsblawg.blogs.com/prawfsb...am-an-ant.html

Saudi Montana?
http://blogs.dailymail.com/donsurber...saudi-montana/

A Dark Corner of Europe, Part I.
http://www.michaeltotten.com/archive...k-corner-o.php

Obama, and his Church of the Poisoned Mind, finally decide to split.
http://proteinwisdom.com/?p=12370

Everything You Ever Needed to Know About the Democratic Party.
http://corner.nationalreview.com/pos...kxOTI5YThhYjQ=

Americans are paying a terrible price for the Democratic Party's perverse energy policies.
http://www.powerlineblog.com/archive.../05/020589.php

Melinda Shore wrote:
In article ,
FurPaw wrote:
And when a solid scientific explanation of these types of
differences emerges, don't expect understanding and compassion on
the part of the public ("low-information voters") to follow close
on its heels. :-(

After this bruising Democratic primary I'd like to see
"low-information voters" retired for awhile. Not forever,
but for now.

Yeah... but they will be forever with us.

Anyway, if this is a nature vs. nurture
discussion I think we have several examples of how those go
once they enter the public discourse. Better than you'd
expect, but not perfectly.

It should be a "nature AND nurture" discussion. Epigenetic
effects kinda preclude the "vs." anymore.

FurPaw
--
The plural of anecdote is not proof.

To reply, unleash the dog.

In article ,
FurPaw wrote:
It should be a "nature AND nurture" discussion. Epigenetic
effects kinda preclude the "vs." anymore.

I'll buy that.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis -

Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community

"Melinda Shore" wrote in message
...
In article Dfd3k.38650$MF3.24719@trnddc06,
\(the\)duckster wrote:
The question really is it my business to tell them they are? I can't
think
of a single person who would thank someone profusely for being told they
are
fat. I know I wouldn't.

I'm not sure that's a good parallel. The way weight in
humans is stigmatized in the US involves personal shame and
a bunch of nonsense that's not directly tied to the question
of health (look at the way "Jack" and Paul both use "fat" as
an insult).

Yes, it's true and I agree completely on your point. I'm what you'd call
robust in spite of walking three daily with four lashed to my waist,
swimming, working a six acre piece of land, etc. With hillbilly on my
dad's side and nothern polish on my mother, I'm doomed to be round, brown
and low to the ground.

I think it's possible to talk about the dog's
health without implying sloth, degeneracy, and all sorts of
stuff.

Yes a fair and kind discussion about improving the health and life of a pet
can be very helpful.

But I'm pretty sure that there's absolutely no point
in trying to help Muttley, because Paul just won't listen.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I could swear I read in this thread he's taken
some of the critics to heart and is taking steps to trim Muttley up. Maybe
they'll walk together and improve both their hearts. I cut back on junk
food, added a mile and in six months have walked off about 25 pounds. 25
more and I could get off my high blood pressure meds. It's a reasonable
goal, I think. Though with the above mentioned ethic on both side I love to
cook and eat.

Kind regards,
(the)duckster
--

"\(the\)duckster" spoke these words of wisdom in
news:egk3k.28165$bs3.14587@trnddc07:

I cut back on junk
food, added a mile and in six months have walked off about 25 pounds.
25 more and I could get off my high blood pressure meds. It's a
reasonable goal, I think. Though with the above mentioned ethic on both
side I love to cook and eat.



Good for you!!