In article 2008070320493350073-montana@wildhackcominvalid,
montana wildhack wrote:
It's a two-year-old dog he's talking about.

Sure, but the only canned text he could cut-and-paste from
the spammy-spam-spam-spam stuff he's using was about
puppies.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis -

Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community

"Jerry" wrote in message
...

snipped

We've left him outside for a few hours and
when we bring him back inside he'll still do it.

You need to be out there with him when he poops, so you can tell him, "Good
dog! You had to GO OUT!!"

Even if your yard is fenced, put a leash on him and walk him around the
yard. Some dogs seem to need the stimulus of a bit of mild exercise to get
things moving.

flick 100785

"many_dogs" wrote in message
.. .
"Jerry" wrote in message
...

snipped

We've left him outside for a few hours and
when we bring him back inside he'll still do it.

You need to be out there with him when he poops, so you can tell him,
"Good dog! You had to GO OUT!!"

Even if your yard is fenced, put a leash on him and walk him around the
yard. Some dogs seem to need the stimulus of a bit of mild exercise to
get things moving.

flick 100785



And some dogs just find too much stimulus in the scents in the yard and
forget why they're there. My lab, Atty is one of these.

If I really really need her to go NOW, I leash her in the yard. She's
pretty reliable on her potty commands, but when she's out sniffing.........
it's just too much of a good thing out there. Most nights she sniffs all
the good smells and we end up out longer than I planned (which is ok, I
enjoy being out with her when the weather is good). She'll be sniffing
away, deer, cat, opossum, groundhog, skunk, etc. and then all of a sudden,
she'll rush off to the back of the yard to do her thing. It's almost like
she's so involved in her sniffing that she forgets why she's there, and then
she'll suddenly remember... oh ya, I need go!

I never knew how much activity we had in our yard until it snowed. It seems
we have more activity now that there is building going on in the 100 acre
field behind us. It's great fun to watch her follow the tracks and put her
nose into every footprint in the snow to see who was there. Sometimes I
laugh and tell her... silly girl, that's YOUR footprint! Some nights she'll
be sniffing and all of a sudden she'll freeze, raise her nose in the air and
catch the scent of something.

Sue and Atty

"Jerry" wrote in message
...

snipped

We've left him outside for a few hours and
when we bring him back inside he'll still do it.

You need to be out there with him when he poops, so you can tell him,
"Good dog! You had to GO OUT!!"

That's ABSURD, flick. Praising or REWARDING a dog
"AFTER THE FACT" is SHEER IDIOCY. AIN'T THAT
what you'd call "BAD TIMING" if you was TRYIN to
"teach" a behavior, flick {}: ~ (

You are unbelievably ignorant. Of course praising the dog right after
he does his thing WORKS. Are you trying to spin this again?
Everything to you is "absurd" and "sheer idiocy." I could say 1+1=2
and you'd respond "That's ABSURD, SHEER IDIOCY." But if your
boyfriend chicken soup said "1+1=3" you'd praise him for being
brilliant, because he's your boyfriend.

Where's the lawsuits? (See, he has been claiming for YEARS to bring
lawsuits against everyone, including me. So far, ZERO lawsuits. He
has no credibility whatsoever, but you already knew that.)

On Fri, 4 Jul 2008 10:02:09 -0400, "Sue and Atty"
wrote:

She'll be sniffing
away, deer, cat, opossum, groundhog, skunk, etc. and then all of a sudden,
she'll rush off to the back of the yard to do her thing. It's almost like
she's so involved in her sniffing that she forgets why she's there, and then
she'll suddenly remember... oh ya, I need go!

I.e., classical conditioning.

--
Handsome Jack Morrison

--
Handsome "Jack" Morrison

Congress Has Lowest Rating Ever, Trails Military 71-12%. Heh.
http://jammiewearingfool.blogspot.co...er-trails.html
Barry O plays the race card, nurses his grudges.
http://proteinwisdom.com/?p=12562
http://www.luoamerican.com/baldilock...monizatio.html
House Democrats call for nationalization of refineries.
http://proteinwisdom.com/?p=12539
Al Gore's use of electricity up 10% this year. Freakin' hypocrite. spit
http://tennesseepolicy.org/main/arti...article_id=764
Hate paying $5 for a gallon of gas? You can thank Al "The Goracle" Gore. spit
http://www.kusi.com/weather/colemans.../19842304.html
"Global warming", solved!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...developed.html
So-called "green" taxes are a con. They have absolutely nothing to do with
saving the planet, or changing people's behaviour. It is all about raising
revenue. Governments around the world have realised that environmentalism
gives them an easy way of squeezing yet more tax out of hard-working people.
And if you object, you are supposed to feel guilty about drowning polar bears.
"Green" taxes also impact most heavily on the poor. This isn't an accident,
it is a deliberate policy.--Bill Carmichael, Yorkshire Post, 31 May 2008
Saudi Montana.
http://blogs.dailymail.com/donsurber...saudi-montana/
Skipping science class.
http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/5820.html
So much for "settled science".
http://www.nationalpost.com/news/wor...html?id=525590
The top ten list of things environmentalists need to learn.
http://depletedcranium.com/?p=368
New Jason Satellite Indicates 23-Year Global Cooling.
http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/2871

On 2008-07-03 22:03:34 -0400, (Melinda Shore) said:

In article 2008070320493350073-montana@wildhackcominvalid,
montana wildhack wrote:
It's a two-year-old dog he's talking about.

Sure, but the only canned text he could cut-and-paste from
the spammy-spam-spam-spam stuff he's using was about
puppies.

That was my point.

On Jul 4, 1:42 pm,
"Human_And_Animal_Behaviour_Forensic_Sciences_Rese arch_Laboratory"
Human_And_Animal_Behaviour_Forensic_Sciences_Rese
wrote:
HOWEDY mikey aka pat aka unsurreality aka trollbasher aka
BLACK VOMIT, you anonymHOWES pathetic miserable stinkin
lyin animal murderin child an spHOWES abusin punk thug coward
active acute chronic long term incurable mental case and professional
dog trainin FRAUD an SCAM ARTIST,

This proves you STILL don't know what the hell you are talking about.
Who is "trollbasher" or "BLACK VOMIT" ? YOU are the one who changes
his ID every ten minutes.


That's ABSURD, flick. Praising or REWARDING a dog
"AFTER THE FACT" is SHEER IDIOCY. AIN'T THAT
what you'd call "BAD TIMING" if you was TRYIN to
"teach" a behavior, flick {}: ~ (

You are unbelievably ignorant.

You are unbelievably pathetically cowardly, mikey.

COWARDLY? Who won't meet me, COWARD?!?


Of course praising the dog right after he does his thing WORKS.

Sorry mikey, praising or rewarding AFTER the FACT is ABSURD
like fixin your SHOCK FENCE fence AFTER your dog has ESCAPED
or STOPPING ABUSING IT AFTER IT HAD DROPPED DEAD from STRESS INDUCED
AUTO-IMMUNE DIS-EASE a.k.a. The Puppy
Wizard's SYNDROME {}: ~ )

Sorry, AssHowe. Immediate praise right at the finish works. If it
doesn't work for you, then you need to learn some more.


Are you trying to spin this again?

AFTER a behavior has been done the dog or child AIN'T
THINKIN of what he's DONE he's thinkin of WHAT'S
NEXT. THAT MIGHT BE tearin your ignorameHOWES
throat HOWET or you, mikey {}: ~ )

I want YOU to tear my throat out, Mr. "Green beret." Can you handle
even that? Whatever happened to the let's meet in Yeehaw Junction
idea?


Everything to you is "absurd" and "sheer idiocy."

You mean, like QUOTING YOU, mikey?

The more you quote me the better, AssHowe!


I could say 1+1=2 and you'd respond
"That's ABSURD, SHEER IDIOCY."

Probably NOT, mikey. Arithmatic AIN'T The Sincerely Incredibly
Freakin Insanely Simply Amazing, Majestic Grand Master Puppy,
Child, Pussy, Birdy, Goat, Ferret, Monkey, SpHOWES, And Horsey
Wizard's SPECIALTY.

Nahh, really? LOL. NOTHING is your specialty.


HIS SPECIALTY is human and animal behavior {}: ~ )

You had better go back to school for that because you are horrible at
it. Pretty sad seeing that's your "specialty."


But if your boyfriend chicken soup said "1+1=3" you'd
praise him for being brilliant, because he's your boyfriend.

No mikey, NOT UNLESS HE COULD PROVE IT. Like HOWE
*you* can PROVE I'm a CONVICTED CHILD MOLESTOR:

I've already proven it. Why do I have to do it twice?

He has no credibility whatsoever,

HOWE COME does mikey post anonymHOWESLY, mikey?

I don't. This is my e-mail address. How is that anonymous? Learn to
spell you moron.

I'll ask you ONE MORE TIME. Let's see how you avoid answering these
questions yet again...

Where are the lawsuits, against ANYONE?
When can we meet at YEEHAW JUNCTION?
Why haven't you "dropped the hammer" on the industry?

You've done nothing, you pathetic pile of dung. Just like your
boyfriend chicken soup. Go look at his website...it STILL says
"coming soon." Really? It said that 5 years ago! Just like you've
been claiming lawsuits for that and longer and STILL nothing has
happened.

You two are cute together...

On Jul 2, 11:54*am, "Bad Puppy"
wrote:
HOWEDY jerry,

WELCOME BAAAAACK~!

* * * * * * * AGAIN~!

On Jul 2, 1:16 pm, Jerry wrote:

I have a 2 year old lab that was housebroken. During the past few
months he has become stubborn about going potty outside.

AGAIN?? That's QUEER, AIN'T IT?

It's ALL critter's NORMAL NATURAL INNATE INSTINCTIVE
REFLEXIVE TERRORTERIAL IMPERATIVE to NOT FHOWEL
*HIS OWN HOWES, jerry.

When I take him out he'll pee but refuses to poop unless I send him
back. Sometimes he'll still refuse. We bring him back in and within
10 minutes he'll poop in the house.

Naaaaah?:

From: "George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D."
To:

Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 5:38 PM
Subject: Doggy advice

Scott, Jerry Howe forwarded me the letter below.
I'm glad that you referred negatively to Jerry's
habit of CAPITALIZING and HOWEING everything.

I personally hate this habit of his. I think it is his
way of diluting his authority - IME he is a very modest
fellow. However, contrary to your sneer, he is very
competent at living with dogs.

I thought I'd list a series of actions which I found
on the list, folk asking advice on what to do about
dogs doing this and that, for example:

whining,
humping, hunching,
pacing,
self mutilation - paw licking, side sucking,
spinning,
prolonged barking, barking at shadows,
overstimulated barking,
fighting, bullying other dogs,
compulsive digging,
compulsive scratching,
compulsive chewing,
frantic behavior,
chasing light, chasing shadow,
stealing food,
digging in garbage can,
loosing house (toilet) training.
inappropriate fearfulness
aggression.

The thing that is fascinating to me, as an ethologist who
graduated from college 50 years ago and has spent all of
the intervening time working with animals (including the
human animal), is that you never see any of these behaviors
in wild dingoes, jackals, coyotes or wolves, you don't even
see these behaviors in hyenas (who aren't dog related).

You see these behaviors in human managed animals, especially
animals who live with neurotic hysterical humans.

As Sam Corson (Pavlov's last student) demonstrated for
nearly 50 years at Ohio University (Oxford, O.) there
is no treatment more useful for dogs than tender loving
care.

George von Hilsheimer, Ph. D., F. R. S. H., Diplomate,
Academy of Behavioral Medicine you may find my resume
in Who's Who in Science and Technology I have been listed
*in Who's Who in the S & SE USA since 1982, and in the big
books, Who's Who in the USA, WW in the World, WW in
Medicine *etc, and WW in Science and Technology, since that date.

These are the Marquis Publications, the "real" WW, and
you can't get yourself into them.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *--------------------

We've corrected him and cleaned the area and he still does it.

Oh well, THAT'S HOWE COME he "makes mistakes":

A. S. Neill, The Famous Founder of The Summerhill
School, Used To Cure Delinquent Children Way Back
In The 1950's By Paying Them For Every Time They
Wet The Bed Or Broke A Pane Of Glass And Their
Behaviour Would Stop, - As If By MAGICK!

"Postitive emotions arising in connection
with the perfection of a skill, irrespective
of its pragmatic significance at a given
moment, serve as the reinforcement. IOW,
emotions, not outside rewards, are what
reinforces any behavior," Ivan Pavlov.

Sam Corson, Pavlov's Last Student Demonstrated At UofOH,
That Rehabilitation Of Hyperactive Dogs Can Easily And
Readily Be Done Using TLC. Tender Loving Care Is At The
Root Of The Scientific Management Of Doggies.

"All animals learn best through play," Lorenz.

The Embry Study:
"While some may find it strange that reprimands
might increase the chances of a child going into
the street, the literature on the experimental analysis
of behavior is replete with examples of how "attention
to inappropriate behavior" increases the chances of
more inappropriate behavior.

Thus, suggestions to parents that they talk to or reason
with their children about dashing into the street will
likely to have the opposite impact.

Reprimands do not punish unsafe behavior; they reward it."

Source:

"Reducing the Risk of Pedestrian Accidents to
Preschoolers by Parent Training and Symbolic
Modeling for Children: An Experimental Analysis
in the Natural Environment. Research Report
Number 2 of the Safe-Playing Project."

We've left him outside for a few hours and when we bring
him back inside he'll still do it. We've been working with
him on this since it started and are quite fed up with it.

Naaaaah??

"The IMBECILITY of some of the claims for operant
technique simply take the breath away. Lovas et al
(1966) report a standard contingent reward/punishment
procedure developing imitative speech in two severly
disturbed non verbal schizophrenic boys. After twenty-
six days the boys are reported to have been learning
new words with alacrity. HOWEver, when REWARDS
were moved to a delayed contingency the behavior and
learning immediately deteriorated.

Programs utilizing the "contingencies of reinforcement
model" proposed by Skinner (1963) are no more well
established in research than the various dynamic
therapists."

Research in four areas : 1) direct evaluation of
programmed systems for learning; 2) reinforcement;
3) cognitive dissonance; and 4) motivation, MOST
SURELY DEMOLISH the claims of operant programers."

"It is NO WONDER that the marked changes in
deviant behavior of children can be achieved
through brief, simple educative routines with
their mothers which modify the mother's social
behaviors shaping the child (Whaler, 1966).

Some clinics have reported ELIMINATION of the
need for child THERAPY through changing the
clinical emphasis from clinical to parental
HANDLING of the child (Szrynski 1965).

A large number of cases improved sufficiently after
preliminary contact with parents that NO treatment
of children was required, and almost ALL cases
SHOWE a remarkably shortened period for therapy.
Quite severe cases of anorexia nervosa have been
treated in own to five months by simply REPLACING
the parents temporarily with EFFUSIVELY LOVING
SUBSTITUTES (Groen, 1966)."

B.F. Skinner: Re-evaluation of Punishment:
Punishment, unfortunately traditionally overused,
actually has been proven not effective at long-
term behavioral change, and creatures will find
other ways of getting what it wants. In "Freedom
and the control of men" American Scholar, Winter
1955-56, 25, 47-65. 1956 he states:

If we no longer resort to torture in what we call
the civilized world, we nevertheless still make
extensive use of punitive techniques in both
domestic and foreign relations. And apparently for
good reasons. Nature if not God has created man
in such a way that he can be controlled punitively.

People quickly become skillful punishers (if not,
thereby, skillful controllers), whereas alternative
positive measures are not easily learned.

The need for punishment seems to have the support
of history, and alternative practices threaten the
cherished values of freedom and dignity.

Fear involved with punishment causes frustration:
with typical results loathing, hostility and apathy.
Skinner's teaching on the superiority of posittive
reinforcement's benefits for keeping desired behavior
have proved very valuable.

* * * * * * * * * * *----------------------------

"Despite Skinner's clear denunciation of "negative
reinforcement" (1958) NEARLY EVER LEARNING
THEORY model involves the USE OF PUNISHMENT.
Of curse, Skinner has never to my knowledge, demonstrated
HOWE we escape the phenomenon that an expected
reward not received is experienced as a punishment
and can produce extensive and persistent aggression
(Azrin et al, 1966)."

* * * "Motivation Of The Resistance To Coercion "-- PAVLOV:

"Reflexes of purpose and freedom" in the comparative
physiology of higher nervous activity, Institute of
Higher Nervous Activity and Neurophysiology, Academy
of Sciences, Moscow:

The most complex unconditioned "reflexes of aim and
freedom," discovered by I.P. Pavlov, are compared
with the "competence drive" and the "motivation of the
resistance to coercion," respectively, described by
contemporary ethologists.

On the basis of the unconditioned "reflex of purpose,"
conditioned reflexes were developed in which positive
emotions arising in connection with the perfection of
a skill, irrespective of its pragmatic significance at
a given moment, serve as the reinforcement.

The unconditioned "reflex of freedom" is regarded as a
phylogenetic precursor of the will, and its acute extinction
as the physiological mechanism of hypnosis. It was
demonstrated experimentally that the appearance of the
state of "animal hypnosis" (immobilization catatonia) in
rabbits is accompanied by the predominance of electrical
activity and heat production in the right hemisphere, i.e.,
by symptoms which are found in hypnosis in man.

Simonov PV/h4
Publication Types:ulliReview/liliReview,
tutorial/li/ulPMID: 2215892, UI: 91015681/blockquote
doctype

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/htbin-po...uid=2215892&am
p;form=6&db=m&Dopt=bNeurosciBehavPhysiol19 90May-Jun;
20(3):230-5

"...all the highest nervous activity, as it manifests
itself in the conditional reflex, consists of a continual
change of these three fundamental processes -- excitation,
inhibition and disinhibition," Ivan P. Pavlov

In the followin SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH STUDY you may
substitute pronged spiked pinch or slip choke collars for shock
and add PUNISHMENT, SCOLDING, CRATING, and offering
and witholding rewards, attention, and affection:

Psychological Effects

At issue is the question, --Do electronic training
devices elicit psychological responses?

"This section cites several research studies in which the
psychological impact of the use of electronic training devices
was analyzed. It is difficult, at best, for anyone to determine
the full psychological effect of these devices or training methods
until we can ...

read more »

Yes, that situation is very strange. Where does the Lab eat? In the
house. Usually a dog will not poop where they are fed or sleep. Keep
him outside until he goes and then praise him for going outside.
Good luck
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