In article ,
(Melinda Shore) wrote:


Sure - gotta ask: which one do you think is functioning?

I think one of the AOL crowd actually does take her dog training
seriously and teaches. I suppose that's functioning. Other than that,
all bets are off! There are some nice and sane people over there BTW,
they just aren't quite as prolific or in need of a life as some others!

--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com

elegy spoke these words of wisdom in
news
On Tue, 08 Jul 2008 14:33:59 -0500, diddy none wrote:

The answer is, they are ignorant
a GOOD breeder is putting NOTHING into the shelters, and breeding animals
that have a lifetime of healthy animals.

amen.

and kudos to you for doing all the health testing on tuck. i am always
glad to see good breeders with good dogs who are willing to PROVE it.



Thanks. Seems the troll shut up, so apparently she saw her folly, ate crow,
and went back to the cat groups to eat crow. Man are those cat people, uhmm
"catty"

"diddy" none wrote in message
. ..
elegy spoke these words of wisdom in
news
On Tue, 08 Jul 2008 14:33:59 -0500, diddy none wrote:

The answer is, they are ignorant
a GOOD breeder is putting NOTHING into the shelters, and breeding
animals
that have a lifetime of healthy animals.

amen.

and kudos to you for doing all the health testing on tuck. i am always
glad to see good breeders with good dogs who are willing to PROVE it.



Thanks. Seems the troll shut up, so apparently she saw her folly, ate
crow,
and went back to the cat groups to eat crow. Man are those cat people,
uhmm
"catty"

And so it is most appropriate for them to eat crow, or any other bird they
might catch. I like cats, but mine have been more like dogs in the sense
that I have not allowed them to be fussy or spoiled rotten. I can just
imagine how extreme cat people would be, and I don't want to be in that
place.

Paul and Muttley

diddy wrote:
Janet Boss spoke these words of wisdom
in :

In article , diddy none
wrote:

Crackpots..but not sensible people.But then, I figure you are a troll,
or you wouldn't be trolling a dog group.
Yes, she didn't like my opinion on someone breeding purebred cats, so
she's decided to crosspost all of her responses to me now. Sorry - I
shouldn't go to the whacko cat group. I just hated the AR crap they
were all spewing at the OP.

AR people are such whackos. And they refuse to acknowlege that there are a
hell of a lot of GOOD breeders out there taking great pains to eliminate
the genetic crap, and not over populate.

Speaking of which, I just sent in Tuck's Cardiac OFA and his CERF to be
registered for his breeder.
Bad breeders won't spend $130 each for OFA hips + $15 to enter it in the
database. $30 for OFA Cardiac + $15 to enter it in the database
$130 for OFA thyroid + $15 to enter it in the database
$30 for OFA Patellas + $15 to enter it in the database, $75 for OFA Elbows
+ $15 to enter it in the database
$200 for OFA kidneys + $15 to enter it in the database and $32 for CERF
testing, + $12 to enter it in the database

It adds up. These were all tests requested of me by the breeder as progeny
follow up to insure she's breeding healthy dogs and catches any mistakes,
so it can be eliminated from the gene pool.

You don't see any randomly bred animal having any effort at all to
eliminate genetic defects, nor having progeny tracking.
AR people and anti-purebred people are ignoring what the good breeders are
doing, and through ignorance, lumping all breeders into the same group.
I'd like to know why they think backyard breeders who let their animals
select their own mates with no accountability nor responsibility, and no
contracts to return any unwanted offspring to the breeder are such hot
stuff.

The answer is, they are ignorant
a GOOD breeder is putting NOTHING into the shelters, and breeding animals
that have a lifetime of healthy animals.

Fawkes, my 13 month old smoothie, is an interesting dog genetically. His
breeder has been testing & breeding for health for 20 years and in some
ways, Fawkes is the zenith - he's normal/clear/negative for everything:
CEA (collie eye which affects 75% of the breed), MDR1 (multi-drug
sensitivity mutation which affects 75% of the breed), Gray Collie
Syndrome (a type of cyclic anemia, don't know the percentage of collies
that carry it), PRA and his parents/grands/greats have been OFAed (hips
and elbows), Thyroid and Cardiac tested. We're expecting that he'll
past his health checks with flying colors.

His family line includes working dogs (including guide & service dogs as
well as performance dogs). He's typey, has a lovely head with a nice
expression, has a great shoulder and front end, a long neck, a medium
length, strong, back (a lot of collies are too long), great side
movement. He's a sable-headed white - a very flashy looking boy. His
faults are that he's slightly cowhocked and - this is the big one - he
has flat splayed feet. The breeder hasn't ever had flat feet in her dogs
and we're waiting to see if they tighten up.

Breeding isn't simple. No dog is perfect and it's a matter of weighing
negatives & positives. Fawkes has some terrific virtues but flat feet
is a big fault in a working dog.

Anyway, some backyard breeders would look at Fawkes and say "Wow a White
Collie - That's a rare color!" and that's all that would matter. Some
show breeders would look at his head and ignore the rest since collies
judging is big on head qualities & expression. Some breeders would love
to breed to him just to bring CEA normal eyes and MDR 1 normal into
their lines. But IMHO, breeding needs to look at the whole picture.
Some things are not a gamble - any puppy from Fawkes will at least be
heterozygous for CEA normal eyes, MDR1 normal, Gray Collie non-carrier.
We don't know how likely it would be for puppies to inherit those feet.

Chris and the smoothies,
Lucy, Fawkes and Bree the visiting collie

In article ,
ChrisJ wrote:


Anyway, some backyard breeders would look at Fawkes and say "Wow a White
Collie - That's a rare color!" and that's all that would matter. Some
show breeders would look at his head and ignore the rest since collies
judging is big on head qualities & expression. Some breeders would love
to breed to him just to bring CEA normal eyes and MDR 1 normal into
their lines. But IMHO, breeding needs to look at the whole picture.
Some things are not a gamble - any puppy from Fawkes will at least be
heterozygous for CEA normal eyes, MDR1 normal, Gray Collie non-carrier.
We don't know how likely it would be for puppies to inherit those feet.

Is there anything you can [try to] do to straighten up his feet? Is
there any potential cause (surfaces, nutrition, whatever) besides
inheritance/luck of the draw?

--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com

In article ,
ChrisJ wrote:
His
faults are that he's slightly cowhocked and - this is the big one - he
has flat splayed feet. The breeder hasn't ever had flat feet in her dogs
and we're waiting to see if they tighten up.

Hey! Slick has flat feet, too. Therefo white dogs have
flat feet! We've invented a new fact! That is so cool.

We don't know how likely it would be for puppies to inherit those feet.

The people who sold me Image just had a bunch of dogs
neutered for a bunch of different reasons, including
temperament. They're sad about some of them (because the
dogs have some really outstanding qualities), but ruthless
in their breeding decisions.

(And they have some of the cutest damned puppies I've ever
seen on the ground right now).
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis -

Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community

Melinda Shore wrote:
In article ,
ChrisJ wrote:
His
faults are that he's slightly cowhocked and - this is the big one - he
has flat splayed feet. The breeder hasn't ever had flat feet in her dogs
and we're waiting to see if they tighten up.

Hey! Slick has flat feet, too. Therefo white dogs have
flat feet! We've invented a new fact! That is so cool.

From my vast experience I know that all sable-headed white smoothies
excel at Stevie Wonder impressions, all Tris are morally superior, all
sables are airheads. And IIRC Dino's feet were a little bit splayed so
thus all white dogs do have flat feet. Whoa.



We don't know how likely it would be for puppies to inherit those feet.

The people who sold me Image just had a bunch of dogs
neutered for a bunch of different reasons, including
temperament. They're sad about some of them (because the
dogs have some really outstanding qualities), but ruthless
in their breeding decisions.

Yes, it's quite possible Fawkes may be neutered. His breeder kept a
brother & two sisters from the litter. The Sire & Dam were heterozygous
for CEA & MDR1 and Fawkes was the only one dealt the perfect hand
(homozygous normal for both). His siblings are a total mixture. So she
still the MDR1 Normal and/or CEA Clear genes in her line but not
perfectly packaged like in Fawkes.

Chris and the smoothies,
Lucy, Fawkes & Bree the visiting collie

Janet Boss wrote:
In article ,
ChrisJ wrote:

Anyway, some backyard breeders would look at Fawkes and say "Wow a White
Collie - That's a rare color!" and that's all that would matter. Some
show breeders would look at his head and ignore the rest since collies
judging is big on head qualities & expression. Some breeders would love
to breed to him just to bring CEA normal eyes and MDR 1 normal into
their lines. But IMHO, breeding needs to look at the whole picture.
Some things are not a gamble - any puppy from Fawkes will at least be
heterozygous for CEA normal eyes, MDR1 normal, Gray Collie non-carrier.
We don't know how likely it would be for puppies to inherit those feet.

Is there anything you can [try to] do to straighten up his feet? Is
there any potential cause (surfaces, nutrition, whatever) besides
inheritance/luck of the draw?


Hi Janet,
Sorry I didn't reply sooner. I skim & post to RPDB during breaks & lunch
at work but sometimes things get a little crazy and I can't get back in
a reasonable time. Well reasonable in terms of maintaining a coherent
conversation. I've held back from posting many times because either I'm
joining the conversation rather late or I know I won't be able to
respond any resulting dialog.

Anyway about Fawkes big feet. I don't believe his feet are caused by
poor nutrition or poor surfaces. I think he's a very flexible dog with
rather loose ligaments/tendons all around.

In terms of breeding, I think any methods used to correct a
conformational deformity doesn't seem quite right. So that's my opinion
about maintaining a healthy population in a breed

But in terms of Fawkes being my dog and having good life, my opinion
takes a 180. I wonder if those flat feet are likely to have arthritis
in them or cause joint problems further up the leg. Those toes will be
more likely to get jammed or injured when he makes a sharp turn or
travels over an A-Frame.

So I'm trying to keep his nails as short as possible which I'm finding
surprisingly difficult since he has the fastest growing nails of any dog
I've seen. I don't let him trot or run on hard surfaces and I'm keeping
him on the lean skinny side.

Chris and the smoothies,
Lucy, Fawkes and Scarface the Happy Collie (it's only a flesh wound)