On Jul 22, 12:29*pm, "
wrote:
On Jul 22, 11:11*am, sighthounds & siberians wrote:





On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 07:36:57 -0700 (PDT),
"

wrote:
On Jul 22, 1:48*am, "Paul E. Schoen" wrote:
I don't have a lot of experience with dogs,

Then why try and give advice regarding dogs.

Also, your dogs were not "rescue" dogs when you got them. *They were
strays. *Lucky became a rescue when you surrendered your right to her
with a rescue group. *Nothing you do with dogs is rescue, which is an
important distinction for people who actually work in rescue. *My
second dog that I just lost recently was a stray, I then fostered her
for a very short time through an actual rescue group that I have
worked with in the past. *When she and Yoda were getting along
perfectly I decided to adopt her myself. *At that point she was an
adopted rescue dog who was found as a stray. *Semantics matter, good
rescue groups have enough trouble overcoming stereotypes and wrongly
propagated beliefs resulting from some bad apples out their without
you contributing to the mess.

Amen to all of the above.

Nick, I don't want to cause you pain if you'd rather not discuss it,
but do you and/or your vet have any idea what happened with Jezebel?

Mustang Sally

We aren't really certain, at the time our two vets, my wife and I
never would have thought she was going to die. *After looking back
though there is a neuro muscular disorder that would explain almost
everything that happened at the end as well as several of her "quirks"
that we didn't even realize were potentially from something underlying
as we didn't have her for very long. *What the disorder didn't explain
could easily have been caused as a result of the symptoms of the
disorder. *Nothing is conclusive though, and there is no way to know
for sure now. *It was just a shock though because over the course of 4
days she went from an apparently healthy young dog to being in severe
pain and ultimately stopping breathing.

I cannot imagine what a horrendous, nightmarish experience that must
have been. I'm so sorry you all had to go through it.

Mustang Sally

"Suja" wrote in message
...

"Paul E. Schoen" wrote in message:

I don't have a lot of experience with dogs,

That should be reason enough to not get involved here. This dog sounds
like
he has very serious issues, and is likely a 'project' dog.

but my dog Muttley is rather
aloof and independent, as this dog seems to be.

Or not. It is more likely (especially given the breed) that this dog is
in
total shutdown mode, not simply aloof.

And it appears that he is making some progress at becoming better
socialized now that he is interacting with caring people. That is not
"total shutdown", which would be, essentially, a coma. But the dog is
responding, and getting better. Of course I would recommend caution, and
obtaining the advice of others who may have had more experience, or who
have actually worked with a dog having had this level of neglect. But I am
emphasizing that a positive attitude, and consistent love and praise, will
work wonders.

So far, except for myself and Sparrow, only JH has attempted to supply some
actual advice and encouragement. Perhaps his methods will work for this
dog. I see no harm in trying. All other responses have been ignorant
knee-jerk attacks on me, and refutation of my success with Muttley as a
stable, well-tempered dog. I don't pretend that he is well-trained, but he
is reliable, non-aggressive, and happy.

Muttley was a "projects" dog, as that is where he was found, running wild
and free with his "pack". He was occasionally befriended by a maintenance
man, and then my friend Helene gained his trust by offering treats and dog
food. He certainly must have belonged to someone at one time, but he very
likely was a result of a BYB that may have attempted to combine scary dogs
(like GSD and PBT) into something formidible and intimidating for a drug
dealer or gangster, but he probably never exhibited enough of those traits
to suit their needs, so he was just let go. But we will never know.

Now, I'm sure this will also elicit a flood of negative comments, with no
useful comments for the OP. But maybe someone will offer something other
than criticism and negativity. Hope springs eternal.

Paul and Muttley

"Paul E. Schoen" wrote:
So far, except for myself and Sparrow, only JH has attempted to supply
some actual advice and encouragement.

Liar. Self-aggrandizing liar.

--
Mary & the depleted Ames National Zoo
(Ranger, Duke, Rhia-cat)

In article ,
Paul E. Schoen wrote:
So far, except for myself and Sparrow, only JH has attempted to supply some
actual advice and encouragement.

As the song says, "No divine purpose brings freedom from
sin." Just because you mean well doesn't mean you do good,
and offering bad advice to a dog in trouble is a really,
really irresponsible thing to do. I actually do have
experience with one withdrawn, asocial dog, but I'm not
enough of a meathead to think that experience with one dog
qualifies me in any way to help with another dog I've never
even seen.

But again, you see in Muttley whatever it is that's on your
mind at the moment, and then you universalize it, and I'm
pretty sure you don't even know how completely out-of-touch
you are with dog behavior.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis -

Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community

"Paul E. Schoen" wrote in message:

I'm not sure why I'm bothering, but here goes.

That is not
"total shutdown", which would be, essentially, a coma.

This dog sounds like it is highly stressed and barely interactive. He
appears to have made some progress since he's been in foster care.
Regardless, this dog does not fit the "my dog Muttley is rather aloof and
independent, as this dog seems to be" comment.

So far, except for myself and Sparrow, only JH has attempted to supply
some
actual advice and encouragement.


Riiiight. Then I must be seeing things, 'cause both Mary and Chris, both of
whom know what they're doing, have offered good, solid advice.

I don't pretend that he is well-trained, but he
is reliable, non-aggressive, and happy.

Who knows, really? As far as I am concerned, you don't have a good track
record when it comes to reporting events related to your dog. You've
yourself admitted to embellishing for 'dramatic effect'.

Muttley was a "projects" dog, as that is where he was found, running wild
and free with his "pack".

You're really doing your dog a disservice by romanticizing his "wild" past,
roaming with a pack and romancing bitches. I happen to have a project dog.
He was found as a stray, running with two other dogs. His ear tips are
bitten off (it looks like someone took pinking shears to them), and he was
afraid of everything except other dogs when he came to us. It took daily
work for over two years to get him to be somewhat normal and trusting with
people, and I still work with him daily on his socialization, because he
still has a tendency to backslide if we slack on it. He was also aloof,
independent, stubborn, and very much his own dog.

We don't go around making up stuff about what may or may not have happened
to him in the past, because it is utterly and totally irrelevant. We put
actual work into this dog to make him one that is acceptable to have in just
about any company. He has turned into a very good dog. We were novice dog
owners that hadn't signed up for this kind of dog, but I'd like to think
that we've done a pretty good job with what we were handed.

Suja

"Paul E. Schoen" wrote in message:

Muttley was a "projects" dog,

Oh, and I think you misunderstood what I meant by a 'project dog'. It's not
a dog that one finds in the projects, but one that turns out to be a
project. IOW, the option of sitting on your hands and letting things work
out doesn't exist; you actually have to put effort (usually, a considerable
amount of it) into rehabilitating the dog.

Suja

Paul E. Schoen wrote:

And it appears that he is making some progress at becoming better
socialized now that he is interacting with caring people. That is not
"total shutdown", which would be, essentially, a coma.

You have no experience with dogs who are (or have been) in total
shutdown.

So far, except for myself and Sparrow, only JH has attempted to supply some
actual advice and encouragement.

Bad advice is worse than none at all.

I haven't offered any because although I did rescue for 10 years nothing
in my experience is particularly relevant to what this poster is describing
- most of my fosters were Briards, OES and Beardies, which are temperamentally
QUITE different than Eskies.

The two closest we Chloe (an OES that I permanently adopted) had been
subjected to near-complete sensory deprivation as had the dog the OP was
describing, but her response was the complete opposite of that dogs: initially
any stimulation sent her into screaming hysterics. It took several years to
get her settled down, but she eventually turned into a fine dog although she
remained permanently less stress-tolerant than I would consider typical.

Chester was a Briard and I was told nothing of his early life by the &*($#@!
owner who gave him up to me (who conveniently told me absolutely nothing about
his extreme shyness). I drove 8 hours to pick up a dog that turned out to be
nearly catatonic to the point that I couldn't get him out of the crate when
I got home. (My mantra the first few weeks was "please, dog, PLEASE don't
make me have to put you down...") Obviously he was so f'ed up that he ended
up having to be a long-term foster (9 months). I pretty much let him take
things at his own pace and he eventually turned out to be a sweet and even
attention-soliciting dog, though again he was never as reslient as I would've
liked. Ironically, I ended up placing him in a therapy-dog home where he
turned out to excel at his job.

But again, those were both herding dogs, bred to bond strongly with humans,
and quite different from northern breeds like Eskies. And none of the 20 or
so other foster dogs I had had anything in common with what the OP described.

So that's just FWIW.

Dianne

In article
,
Sparrow wrote:

(as Muttley was rescued
from the streets and had been abused)

he had been?!?!?!

--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com

In article ,
"Suja" wrote:


Every dog that came from the streets has been abused (most especially mine).
Clearly, you know nothing, boss lady.

Damn!

--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com

"Janet Boss" wrote in message:

he had been?!?!?!

Every dog that came from the streets has been abused (most especially mine).
Clearly, you know nothing, boss lady.

Suja