"Jim Manson" wrote in message:

Anyway, long post but I thought I would let people know what happened.

Thank you for adopting Bear and posting an update about him. He certainly
seems to be a bit of a challenge, but you seem more than capable of dealing
with it. In the end, it would've been a worthwhile effort.

Lots of luck to both of you.

Suja

Rocky wrote:

Jim Manson said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

I forgot to mention that he is physically in great shape
now and extremely cute. He's a miniature and weighs about
16 pounds.

Chip away at his issues - you've taken on a very commendable
project. As you've realised, the key training method at this
point is patience.

Fairly important and something I didn't see in your original
post: How does he get along with other dogs?

They don't exist as far as he knows. If he is around them he ignores
them unless they crowd him, in that case he backs off or growls.

"Human_And_Animal_Behaviour_Forensic_Sciences_Rese arch_Laboratory"
Human_And_Animal_Behaviour_Forensic_Sciences_Rese
wrote:

HOWEDY jim

You're makin it very difficult for The Sincerely Incredibly
Freakin Insanely Simply Amazing, Majestic Grand Master
Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy, Goat, Ferret, Monkey, SpHOWES,
And Horsey Wizard not to call you a pathetic miserable stinkin
rotten lyin dog abusin punk thug coward active acute chronic
life-long incurable malignant maliciHOWES MENTAL CASE.


Hi,

Actually I've looked at your webpage and read some of your posts.
You have some good ideas and some things that I agree with. That said,
there are also a lot of things I don't agree with.

I think I'll continue the way I am for now and see how it goes. This
isn't the first rescue I've had, or the first abused dog. I do know
that if I had handled the last one the way you advocate he wouldn't
have turned out to be the wonderful companion he was.

I like your methods but I don't like reducing dogs to the lowest
common denominator that you insist on. I leave room for them to have
more of a personality. I agree that one cannot indulge in
anthropomorphism but dogs also can't be reduced to a simple bag of
instinct/reactions. I think there's a middle ground. Heredity vs.
environment and all that.

Anyway, I do appreciate the advice and I will keep reading your posts,
well most of them.... :-)

Thanks,

-Jim

"Jim Manson" wrote in message
Anyway, I do appreciate the advice and I will keep reading your posts,
well most of them.... :-)

Jim -

Most of us here on the group have our resident idiot kill filed. The only
time we see any of his messages - or any part of them - is when someone
answers him.

If you are going to answer him, first you should make note that he will have
always added a bunch of other groups. You should make sure that you are not
continuing the crossposting - those groups really don't appreciate having
other discussions hauled over into their messages.

Another hint is that if when you respond to him, if you include Eggplant in
the subject line, it will either allow those of us who don't want to see his
rantings to block those messages or avoid them. We'd really appreciate it.

His advice - the parts that you find at all helpful and reasonable - is all
available from other sources without the high noise to help ratio that his
posts have. He has nothing new or unique to offer. Really.

Thanks.

And I will also add that I look forward to further updates on Bear. Good on
you for taking on the responsibility.

Judy

"Jim Manson" wrote in message
...
He's actually made improvements in the last three weeks. He is making
more eye contact and not cringing quite as much. We are working with
him and we have contacted a vet that specializes in behavioral issues
and scheduled an at home consultation. Hopefully that will give us
some definite methods to deal with his anxiety issues. Given all of
the unknowns as to what he experienced it's tough to tell what will
help and what may make things worse.


Dear Jim,
Thank you so much for helping this poor soul of a dog. He sounds as if he
might actually be FIXABLE!
Keep us posted.

Judy wrote:

Another hint is that if when you respond to him, if you include Eggplant
in the subject line, it will either allow those of us who don't want to
see his rantings to block those messages or avoid them. We'd really
appreciate it.


Note an important distinction.
[Eggplant] is for discussions of new people who might or might not be
trolls or worthy of killfile.
[ninnyboy] is for Jerry himself.
The brackets are important.


--Lia

"Julia Altshuler" wrote in message
. ..
Note an important distinction.
[Eggplant] is for discussions of new people who might or might not be
trolls or worthy of killfile.
[ninnyboy] is for Jerry himself.
The brackets are important.

Ah. Thank you. You are correct. My memory was bad.

And since I don't use them - except to skip messages when they get tedious -
I wasn't aware of how important the brackets are.

Judy

"Jim Manson" wrote in message
...

[in reply to JH]

Hi,

Actually I've looked at your webpage and read some of your posts.
You have some good ideas and some things that I agree with. That said,
there are also a lot of things I don't agree with.

I think I'll continue the way I am for now and see how it goes. This
isn't the first rescue I've had, or the first abused dog. I do know
that if I had handled the last one the way you advocate he wouldn't
have turned out to be the wonderful companion he was.

I like your methods but I don't like reducing dogs to the lowest
common denominator that you insist on. I leave room for them to have
more of a personality. I agree that one cannot indulge in
anthropomorphism but dogs also can't be reduced to a simple bag of
instinct/reactions. I think there's a middle ground. Heredity vs.
environment and all that.

Anyway, I do appreciate the advice and I will keep reading your posts,
well most of them.... :-)

Thanks,

-Jim

I agree with your view that JH does have something to offer, but as you can
see from his response to you, he has a "short fuse" and a very narrow
viewpoint that leaves no room for discussion, which indicates that he is a
monomaniac. He has already given up on you and will now predictably attack
and abuse you verbally for choosing to maintain a rational course of action
and continue a civil discussion with the regulars (and irregulars) here on
RPDB. I myself have been killfiled by some of the clique here, for reasons
too lengthy and contentious to present here, but the seeds of the
negativity are contained in my
www.smart.net/~pstech/Muttley/MuttleyStory.htm.

The good thing is that Muttley has turned out to be a great companion, a
well-behaved traveling buddy, and the subject of much curiosity and
positive comments on his disposition when I take him out in public. He does
need more training, but I do not agree with the forceful methods that were
taught in obedience classes. I actually made an effort to follow JH's
instructions, and I reported on my progress (or lack thereof) in a series
of posts a little more than a year ago, after Jerry called me and convinced
me to give it a try. But Muttley did not react as expected when I performed
the first exercise, and the instructions dictated that they must be
followed exactly and in the order given, so I felt I could not continue. I
think there are differences in dogs, and some have personalities that are
not conducive to a "one size fits all" training method.

Of course, JH then accused me of all sorts of things and reverted to his
abusive attempts at discrediting me, as he does with all others who do not
choose to be his unquestioning disciples. And in doing so, he discredits
himself, as he says that unconditional praise should always be given even
when an unwanted behavior is presented. He claims it works on people as
well as animals, but he does not follow his own teachings in that regard.
And I seriously doubt that he has had success with certain kinds of dogs
that are aloof and independent, as I know Muttley to be.

I wish you the best of success with Bear, and it will be interesting to
hear details of your progress. He sounds like quite a challenge, and I'm
sure your efforts will be rewarded with a fine canine companion.

Paul and Muttley

Jim Manson said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

Fairly important and something I didn't see in your
original post: How does he get along with other dogs?

They don't exist as far as he knows. If he is around them
he ignores them unless they crowd him, in that case he
backs off or growls.

Not your situation, but I've worked with a few dogs from
reservations who were kicked when they tried to come inside.
Understandably, they were reluctant to come inside here.
These dogs were very trusting with other dogs, though, and
food motivated. So, I left the door open and played with a
few other dogs, giving out lots of treats. Most dogs relented
after a few hours and came in to investigate.

With the more recalcitrant, I had to leave a liver trail of
treats, hide away (many of these dogs were fearful of men),
and sneak around to close the door when they finally entered).
Once inside, there were no issues and the second time was
easier.

Dogs and food always worked for me as lures, though it
sometimes took a great deal of time. Those who weren't man-
shy and were comfortable on leash, I just walked around the
yard having fun, and then just marched into the house without
a pause. Before they knew it, they were through the evil
door.

So, you have to identify something really cool that your dog
likes, whether its food, a ball, a squeaky toy. You can play
with Bear without him coming to you, or just hang out, to
build up trust.

--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

Jim said in part.
After giving it a lot of thought we decided to adopt the dog. His name
is now officially Bear. Nobody knows what his original name was.
____________________________
Jim,
Bless your heart! You have got more gumption than I do. I am wishing
all the best for you and Bear.
I remember reading your original post but cannot recall how old Bear
is?
You sound as if you are realistic about the situation and that is a
good thing. I would like to be very posiive and swear that Bear will be
fine but he may not be. I would like to be wrong, he certainly deserves
a chance.
I guess I have never considered what happens to companion dogs that are
trained and placed in a home to aid someone that is somehow handicapped?
I know there are regulars that post here that are up on the subject.
Does the trainer do regular follow ups to be sure the dog is on track
and that his handler is too?
I know that question has nothing to do with Bear as that was not the
situation with him at all.
I wish you all the best with Bear. Good Luck..


Be Free.....Judy