"montana wildhack" wrote in message
news:2008120209042216807-montana@wildhackcominvalid...
On 2008-12-02 00:53:26 -0500, "Ted Mittelstaedt"
said:

How would I tell spay incontinence?

She's really young for that sort of thing, but incontinence is usually
seen as "leaking".


It's not that, then.

Thank you so much for coming back and having a dialogue.

One poster had recommended tethering her to you as one might do when
doing initial housetraining to ensure that you get her outside if she
starts sniffing. This would also eliminate counter-surfing when you
aren't looking.

Among other things, if she is favoring the carpet, she is probably
still smelling urine: hers or another dog's. You can get a small black
light at pet stores to check for urine. That's where the enzyme
cleaners are your friend.


That's a great idea.

Ted

It does sound like you need to work on training! That can help with
several issues you are experiencing.

Please keep us informed of your progress.

"Janet Boss" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Ted Mittelstaedt" wrote:

The one time I tried putting her on a leash inside, within 5 minutes she
had
chewed through it. (obviously I wasn't watching her) After that I
managed
to
find an old metal chain leash
at a secondhand store. (I don't understand why all the leashes you see
in
the stores today are fabric straps, but what do I know)

Leashes of fabric or leather are much preferred for walking and
training. Chain leashes weigh on a dog's collar and teaching walking on
a loose leash makes less sense with that pressure.


Ah, OK I get it. Since 80% of casual dog owners likely don't know
that and wouldn't care if they did, I think I can figure this one out by
myself. Metal chains are about 25 cents more expensive per foot than
fabric,
so the suppliers of leashes did the usual Great American Screw The
Consumer trick of supplying a cheesier/cheaper leash, then marking it
up and claiming it's "better" using some baloney/bs excuse.

The weight difference of the 5 foot steel chain and the 6 foot fabric leash
is less than a pound. And if the dog is trained to heel, the majority of
the
chain weight is on the owner holding the chain, since they are holding the
chain -above- the dog. The 6 inches or so that may dangle down is
not significant in weight.

I've seen this same kind of argument with people arguing over whether
a steel or aluminum bicycle seat post is "better" The difference between
the posts in weight is less than a pound, but the aluminum ones break
and bend, and are 10 times more expensive. But, you will never convince
someone who has spent the money on a "racing" aluminum seatpost
that he wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

If we had the time to constantly keep a close eye on her when we are in
the house we wouldn't have this problem. But there's only so many hours
in the day - I get home around 6pm and go to bed at 10pm - to do that
would require me watching her constantly for 4 hours in the evening, and
it's just out of the question. We have to do mundane things like eat,
wash
dishes, put kids to bed, pay bills, etc. not to mention walking the dog
in
the evenings.

Join the club. My dogs are pretty much WITH me when I'm doing those
things. Warming my feet, hanging out nearby.


If your dogs are hanging out nearby I think that's a lot different than
keeping a
close eye on them. A close eye means just that - your constantly paying
close
attention to what they are doing. It doesen't mean that your paying close
attention to the stove when cooking dinner and just know in the back of your
mind that the dog is hanging around.

I don't think your experience of your dogs hanging around qualifies as the
kind of close attention that the other poster advised was needed.


In general in the evening we don't have this problem. We have to
crate her during dinner because the kids will feed her scraps under the
table otherwise,

That is a KID training issue. Teach BOTH of them table manners!


I know there are some people who have kids who act like the kids
on the Brady Bunch, but I've never met any parents who had those
kind of kids. All the parents I've met had kids that act like our kids.

Consider yourself extremely lucky that you have kids docile enough
that you can teach them to not feed the dog under the table.

And if you actually don't have kids at all, well then all I can say
is I know there's no possible way to convince non-parents that
children cannot be trained like dogs so I won't even try.

We also do not feed her after 5pm and we stop putting food in her bowl
around 3pm, she generally finishes it off before 5.

Free feeding is a really bad idea for a dog with elimination problems
(and IMO, not a good idea for most dogs). Start by scheduling her
feedings and giving her a limited time to eat.

Most of the peeing seems to happen in the morning or afternoon, when
my wife is distracted with taking care of the kids. That is one of the
problems
as well.

There are several options depending on the age of your children, their
needs that need attending, and the layout of your home. Keeping the dog
WITH the group, in some way, is the most helpful. That can be tethered
to an object or mom, gated in the same room (or doors shut to keep her
in the same room) etc.


Tethering inside isn't an option here. A fabric tether would be chewed
through.
A steel tether would scar up the furniture, we just don't have that much
room. The only realistic option for our setup is for her to be free running
inside the house and to learn to NOT pee or poop in the house.

You also mentioned a 2 hour window of her urinating and when she has
peed on the floor. Typically, MOST dogs (and especially young ones)
here have gone out at 6, peed, then fed (expected to eat all of the
food) then out again for more pee and poop, by 6:15. With a puppy or
not fully trained dog, I would have them out again at 7:15.

Interesting. Well, last night I walked her at 10pm, then crated her, then
this morning I took her out at 6, she pooped
twice and peed twice. Then I fed her, then took her out again at 8. She
didn't mess on the floor during that time so maybe she is catching on,
I hope so. But she didn't eat much of the food. Then she was crated
when both my wife and I left.

I didn't realize that a dog could become "poop-ready" in 15 minutes that
soon after eating.

Not too
hard if you have a fenced yard,

We don't, and it wouldn't be possible anyway due to the layout of the
yard, detached garage and driveway.

but quick no matter what. Then again
before people leave for the day. How long is she crated during the day?

Generally no longer than 4 hours at a stretch during the day. If my wife is
going to be gone in the morning then she is always back by noon since
we have 1 kid that has to be picked up from school around then,
at that time she walks and feed the dog. After that, the crating is
irregular, it depends on whether my wife goes out or not.

Sometimes, having to "hold it" for long periods can mess with the
natural rhythm of the bladder.


Well, that's true for people too - but it's unavoidable in modern society.

So, can a dog be trained to use the toilet? I know that people have
trained cats to do so.

Ted

--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com

"Spot" wrote in message
...
You can not delay cleaning a carpet after a dog has an accident.

Because it's not being cleaned immediately the dog smells the urine and
will
keep going back to that spot again and again. I would suggest getting an
enzyme cleaner and invest in a hand held rug scrubber and get to work on
the
places she's had accidents. You will never get anywhere with the peeing
issue if you don't clean the carpets. I may take multiple scrubbings to
get
the odor out. I had one particular spot that the pup kept going to. I
scrubbed it 5 days in a row to make sure I got all the odor out and that
finally eliminated the problem.

Celeste


What product do you recommend?

Ted

In article ,
Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
Tethering inside isn't an option here. A fabric tether would be chewed
through.

No, no, no. You tether the dog to yourself. It's a way to
guarantee constant supervision even when your attention
wanders.

I think the point is that there are millions of
house-trained dogs in the US. If what you're doing isn't
working, do something else. Instead of reflexively thinking
"I can't do that" when someone offers a suggestion, try to
figure out how you could do that if you tried. Don't expect
not to change anything and still have a different outcome.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis -

Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community

In article ,
"Ted Mittelstaedt" wrote:



Ah, OK I get it. Since 80% of casual dog owners likely don't know
that and wouldn't care if they did, I think I can figure this one out by
myself. Metal chains are about 25 cents more expensive per foot than
fabric,
so the suppliers of leashes did the usual Great American Screw The
Consumer trick of supplying a cheesier/cheaper leash, then marking it
up and claiming it's "better" using some baloney/bs excuse.

Paranoid?

The weight difference of the 5 foot steel chain and the 6 foot fabric leash
is less than a pound. And if the dog is trained to heel, the majority of
the
chain weight is on the owner holding the chain, since they are holding the
chain -above- the dog. The 6 inches or so that may dangle down is
not significant in weight.

It's more than that. It is how a leash can be held in the hands of the
handler, for maximum control for dogs who may need that, for safety
reasons, etc. I have a bunch of different leashes. I own a chain one.
It is for demo purposes of one of the leashes I won't allow in class.

Not significant in weight is not as simple as you may think.

If your dogs are hanging out nearby I think that's a lot different than
keeping a
close eye on them. A close eye means just that - your constantly paying
close
attention to what they are doing. It doesen't mean that your paying close
attention to the stove when cooking dinner and just know in the back of your
mind that the dog is hanging around.

You'd be wrong. I have eyes in the back of my head and am a pretty damn
observant person. I've had a lot of puppies live with me (one at a
time). Close supervision is possible when doing other things.
Multitasking is something not everyone does well though.

I don't think your experience of your dogs hanging around qualifies as the
kind of close attention that the other poster advised was needed.

Oh well! It does. I don't have puppy problems!

All the parents I've met had kids that act like our kids.

Too bad. Don't you enforce rules?


Consider yourself extremely lucky that you have kids docile enough
that you can teach them to not feed the dog under the table.

I've had more meals with more SMALL (and large) children than you can
imagine. All of them were quite aware that feeding the dog was
unacceptable.


Tethering inside isn't an option here. A fabric tether would be chewed
through.
A steel tether would scar up the furniture, we just don't have that much
room. The only realistic option for our setup is for her to be free running
inside the house and to learn to NOT pee or poop in the house.

No, it isn't. I assume you have rooms? You have waists? Tether a dog
TO you. Use gates. Use a doorknob. Use chew deterrent on fabric,
plastic coated steel cable of appropriate length. Oh yeah - stop making
excuses.

Interesting. Well, last night I walked her at 10pm, then crated her, then
this morning I took her out at 6, she pooped
twice and peed twice. Then I fed her, then took her out again at 8. She
didn't mess on the floor during that time so maybe she is catching on,
I hope so. But she didn't eat much of the food. Then she was crated
when both my wife and I left.

And the food?

I didn't realize that a dog could become "poop-ready" in 15 minutes that
soon after eating.

Depends on the general feeding pattern, but yes.

Generally no longer than 4 hours at a stretch during the day. If my wife is
going to be gone in the morning then she is always back by noon since
we have 1 kid that has to be picked up from school around then,
at that time she walks and feed the dog. After that, the crating is
irregular, it depends on whether my wife goes out or not.

Sounds pretty good.

Sometimes, having to "hold it" for long periods can mess with the
natural rhythm of the bladder.


Well, that's true for people too - but it's unavoidable in modern society.

How often are you deprived of the ability to eliminate for 8-12 hours?
When awake, not overnight when sleeping? Think about dogs who have that
every day. Adult dogs can often handle it just fine. Young dogs rarely
can, and other conditions come into play as well.

So, can a dog be trained to use the toilet? I know that people have
trained cats to do so.

No. When you get a dog, you assume responsibility for a reasonable
schedule for them.

--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com

On Dec 4, 2:53*pm, "Ted Mittelstaedt" wrote:
"Janet Boss" wrote in message

...





In article ,
*"Ted Mittelstaedt" wrote:




Join the club. *My dogs are pretty much WITH me when I'm doing
those
things. *Warming my feet, hanging out nearby.

If your dogs are hanging out nearby I think that's a lot different than
keeping a
close eye on them. *A close eye means just that - your constantly paying
close
attention to what they are doing. *It doesen't mean that your paying close
attention to the stove when cooking dinner and just know in the back of your
mind that the dog is hanging around.

I don't think your experience of your dogs hanging around qualifies as the
kind of close attention that the other poster advised was needed.



is this your first dog?

My dogs are in the same room where I am (at least my 80 pound puppy
is)

if i'm in the kitchen cooking I have one dog in each doorway. on their
rugs watching me....

if I only have the puppy I call for hannah and she's in the next room
and comes running... (hannah at nearly 7 is middle aged, housebroken
and well behaved and as such is allowed the luxury of NOT watching
mommy cook dinner)




In general in the evening we don't have this problem. *We have to
crate her during dinner because the kids will feed her scraps under the
table otherwise,

That is a KID training issue. *Teach BOTH of them table manners!

I know there are some people who have kids who act like the kids
on the Brady Bunch, but I've never met any parents who had those
kind of kids. *All the parents I've met had kids that act like our kids..

Consider yourself extremely lucky that you have kids docile enough
that you can teach them to not feed the dog under the table.

And if you actually don't have kids at all, well then all I can say
is I know there's no possible way to convince non-parents that
children cannot be trained like dogs so I won't even try.


three kids here ages 24 22 and 16 so don't try to tell me I've not
raised my kids.


one is on the autistic spectrum (the 24 year old)
one is ADHD (the 22 year old who BTW GRADUATES from DREXEL this year)
one is learning disabled (my 16 yr old girl child stepdaughter who
came as the bonus child with the current husband)

two no longer live at home but they learned quickly NO means NO

do you let your children play with matches? just because they want
to?
do you let them run in the street because it's fun?

why do you let them feed the dog at the table?

IF you can't control your children what makes you think you can
control your puppy?





I didn't realize that a dog could become "poop-ready" in 15 minutes that
soon after eating.

yep eating is what makes them have to go... or exercise.




Not too
hard if you have a fenced yard,

We don't, and it wouldn't be possible anyway due to the layout of the
yard, detached garage and driveway.


I had no fenced yard from 2002 (when I first got dogs after a long dog
break) until 2008 when i finally had a fence put in a tiny yard.

I housebroke two dogs without a fenced yard
without a spouse
and with physical limitations on myself.






***posted via google****

Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:

Ah, OK I get it. Since 80% of casual dog owners likely don't know
that and wouldn't care if they did, I think I can figure this one out by
myself. Metal chains are about 25 cents more expensive per foot than
fabric,
so the suppliers of leashes did the usual Great American Screw The
Consumer trick of supplying a cheesier/cheaper leash, then marking it
up and claiming it's "better" using some baloney/bs excuse.

Um, there are a lot of reasons not to use a chain leash. Cost has
nothing to do with it. Chain leashes are dangerous for people. They're
much harder to grip, and if a chain leash gets wrapped around a finger
when a dog goes flying off after something there's a log more chance the
owner will lose said finger. They're also harder to handle in general.
There's a reason why chain leashes are banned at our training facility,
and weight is one of the least of them.

A good leather leash is always the way to go. I do use nylon on my toy
dog, but the big dogs all get quality leather. I use Master's Pride,
http://www.masterspride.com. He custom makes my leather leads and
collars. Worth every penny. My first purchase from him was made in 2000,
that collar still looks like new and is butter soft and beautiful.

In article OTXZk.409892$TT4.377664@attbi_s22,
Robin Nuttall wrote:
A good leather leash is always the way to go.

I'll confess to preferring nylon. My hands are beat to crap
anyway, and nylon is indestructible and comes in bright
colors (makes it easy to spot among the clutter). It is
rougher on the hands but as I said my hands are pretty
tough.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis -

Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community

In article ,
(Melinda Shore) wrote:


I'll confess to preferring nylon. My hands are beat to crap
anyway, and nylon is indestructible and comes in bright
colors (makes it easy to spot among the clutter). It is
rougher on the hands but as I said my hands are pretty
tough.


Have you tried hemp?

--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com

"Janet Boss" wrote in message
...
Have you tried hemp?

Hey - there's GOT to be a store in Ithaca that sells hemp stuff.

(I think I saw their storefront the other night on the news when they were
talking about the ways they were encouraging people to Christmas shop in
downtown Ithaca.)

I haven't tried hemp. I do love a great leather leash. Most of ours are
nylon. I buy them cheaply at Pet Edge because Sassy loves them more than
any chew toy. Mostly she chews on Spenser's when she gets bored with just
walking normally.

We also use braided leashes - they work great for tugging practice.

And I admit to using flexis. But only when the dogs are on long walks in
places where we aren't going to meet a lot of people, other dogs or cars.

But I haven't had a chain leash in years and years.

Judy