Hey,

Another type of dog I was thinking of getting, was a wild breed of
dog, called a Marble Fox. It is basically a domestic Red Fox, with a
white with black accents, fur color phase.

I just had a question that could also apply to Coydogs, pure Coyotes,
Wolfdogs and pure Wolves.

My one neighbor said that you can apply for a variance for ANY city
regulation. Well, I was kind of thinking of moving into a city that
don't allow "Red" Foxes (they do, however, allow Fennecs) and if I do
move there, I wanted to apply for a variance to own a Marble Fox
there. You only need a DNR permit to own any native wildlife exotics,
here in Michigan, and a Marble phased Red Fox is not native. So,
everything with non-native exotics, is up to the city or township you
live in.

So has anyone here, ha a wild or part wild breed of dog, such as a
wolf, wolfdog, or any I mentioned above, who has tried to apply for a
variance in this area to keep this type of dog? Because I wondering,
in a city, what do you guys think that my odds are, of getting
approved for a variance for owning a fox? I was told on a pet message
board that, my odds probably are not good, but I figured I'd get an
opinion here, as well.

I already had a Red (phased) Fox, and so, I know what they are like,
and my neighbor told me I should mention that I have fox experience,
to the council, and the city I wanted to move in, is in my old
neighborhood, where I grew up. I wanted to buy my grandma's house, if
she ever sells, and my house was around and on the same block, so I
would be close to home. Anyway, more and more people are moving in my
grandma's neighborhood, with Pitbulls, which I would regard as, way
more dangerous than any fox (unless the fox was rabid, anyway) and my
grandma's neighbor on the one side, had a mean Rottweiler and mean
Pitbull, and the Pitbull actually got loose, and under my grandma's
fence, and bit her hand up. That Pitbull is gone now, but, now new
neighbors moved into the other side house next to my grandma, who has
five Pitbulls, and a new neighbor directly across the street, with
Pitbulls, and I've seen even more Pitbulls, in that neighborhood,
being walked by people in that neighborhood.

So, my argument for being approved for the fox variance, would be
that, I would be surrounded by people with dangerous dogs, so I don't
see why I can't have what could become a dangerous dog, just because
its a wild dog. And I wanted to argue, if they allow Fennecs, which is
a type of fox, why can't I have a Marble Fox? I'd also argue that, you
can fight off or (God forbid, if you had to do it) kill a fox easier
than a Pitbull, if you had no other choice, but to kill it.

Also, I know some people don't consider foxes as "dogs" but, even
though foxes are further away from dogs than wolves, I still consider
them "a breed of wild dog"

This may be an odd post and request, but, can anyone with a wild breed
of dog, shed some light in, on this issue, who may have experienced
this type of issue, first hand?

Tom

On Dec 11, 11:47*pm, wrote:
Hey,

Another type of dog I was thinking of getting, was a wild breed of
dog, called a Marble Fox. It is basically a domestic Red Fox, with a
white with black accents, fur color phase.

I just had a question that could also apply to Coydogs, pure Coyotes,
Wolfdogs and pure Wolves.

My one neighbor said that you can apply for a variance for ANY city
regulation. Well, I was kind of thinking of moving into a city that
don't allow "Red" Foxes (they do, however, allow Fennecs) and if I do
move there, I wanted to apply for a variance to own a Marble Fox
there. You only need a DNR permit to own any native wildlife exotics,
here in Michigan, and a Marble phased Red Fox is not native. So,
everything with non-native exotics, is up to the city or township you
live in.

So has anyone here, ha a wild or part wild breed of dog, such as a
wolf, wolfdog, or any I mentioned above, who has tried to apply for a
variance in this area to keep this type of dog? Because I wondering,
in a city, what do you guys think that my odds are, of getting
approved for a variance for owning a fox? I was told on a pet message
board that, my odds probably are not good, but I figured I'd get an
opinion here, as well.

I already had a Red (phased) Fox, and so, I know what they are like,
and my neighbor told me I should mention that I have fox experience,
to the council, and the city I wanted to move in, is in my old
neighborhood, where I grew up. I wanted to buy my grandma's house, if
she ever sells, and my house was around and on the same block, so I
would be close to home. Anyway, more and more people are moving in my
grandma's neighborhood, with Pitbulls, which I would regard as, way
more dangerous than any fox (unless the fox was rabid, anyway) and my
grandma's neighbor on the one side, had a mean Rottweiler and mean
Pitbull, and the Pitbull actually got loose, and under my grandma's
fence, and bit her hand up. That Pitbull is gone now, but, now new
neighbors moved into the other side house next to my grandma, who has
five Pitbulls, and a new neighbor directly across the street, with
Pitbulls, and I've seen even more Pitbulls, in that neighborhood,
being walked by people in that neighborhood.

So, my argument for being approved for the fox variance, would be
that, I would be surrounded by people with dangerous dogs, so I don't
see why I can't have what could become a dangerous dog, just because
its a wild dog. And I wanted to argue, if they allow Fennecs, which is
a type of fox, why can't I have a Marble Fox? I'd also argue that, you
can fight off or (God forbid, if you had to do it) kill a fox easier
than a Pitbull, if you had no other choice, but to kill it.

Also, I know some people don't consider foxes as "dogs" but, even
though foxes are further away from dogs than wolves, I still consider
them "a breed of wild dog"

This may be an odd post and request, but, can anyone with a wild breed
of dog, shed some light in, on this issue, who may have experienced
this type of issue, first hand?

Tom


Oh, and two more things. One, I'm not planning to take a fox out of
the wild, for a pet. I'm going to a "captive bred" fox breeder for my
next fox, if I get one, and two, I didn't have a DNR permit for my
first fox, because she was a red color phased Red Fox, thus, I needed
the permit.

Oh, and one last important thing. I also do have a fox vet set up.

On Dec 12, 12:07*am, wrote:
On Dec 11, 11:47*pm, wrote:





Hey,

Another type of dog I was thinking of getting, was a wild breed of
dog, called a Marble Fox. It is basically a domestic Red Fox, with a
white with black accents, fur color phase.

I just had a question that could also apply to Coydogs, pure Coyotes,
Wolfdogs and pure Wolves.

My one neighbor said that you can apply for a variance for ANY city
regulation. Well, I was kind of thinking of moving into a city that
don't allow "Red" Foxes (they do, however, allow Fennecs) and if I do
move there, I wanted to apply for a variance to own a Marble Fox
there. You only need a DNR permit to own any native wildlife exotics,
here in Michigan, and a Marble phased Red Fox is not native. So,
everything with non-native exotics, is up to the city or township you
live in.

So has anyone here, ha a wild or part wild breed of dog, such as a
wolf, wolfdog, or any I mentioned above, who has tried to apply for a
variance in this area to keep this type of dog? Because I wondering,
in a city, what do you guys think that my odds are, of getting
approved for a variance for owning a fox? I was told on a pet message
board that, my odds probably are not good, but I figured I'd get an
opinion here, as well.

I already had a Red (phased) Fox, and so, I know what they are like,
and my neighbor told me I should mention that I have fox experience,
to the council, and the city I wanted to move in, is in my old
neighborhood, where I grew up. I wanted to buy my grandma's house, if
she ever sells, and my house was around and on the same block, so I
would be close to home. Anyway, more and more people are moving in my
grandma's neighborhood, with Pitbulls, which I would regard as, way
more dangerous than any fox (unless the fox was rabid, anyway) and my
grandma's neighbor on the one side, had a mean Rottweiler and mean
Pitbull, and the Pitbull actually got loose, and under my grandma's
fence, and bit her hand up. That Pitbull is gone now, but, now new
neighbors moved into the other side house next to my grandma, who has
five Pitbulls, and a new neighbor directly across the street, with
Pitbulls, and I've seen even more Pitbulls, in that neighborhood,
being walked by people in that neighborhood.

So, my argument for being approved for the fox variance, would be
that, I would be surrounded by people with dangerous dogs, so I don't
see why I can't have what could become a dangerous dog, just because
its a wild dog. And I wanted to argue, if they allow Fennecs, which is
a type of fox, why can't I have a Marble Fox? I'd also argue that, you
can fight off or (God forbid, if you had to do it) kill a fox easier
than a Pitbull, if you had no other choice, but to kill it.

Also, I know some people don't consider foxes as "dogs" but, even
though foxes are further away from dogs than wolves, I still consider
them "a breed of wild dog"

This may be an odd post and request, but, can anyone with a wild breed
of dog, shed some light in, on this issue, who may have experienced
this type of issue, first hand?

Tom

Oh, and two more things. One, I'm not planning to take a fox out of
the wild, for a pet. I'm going to a "captive bred" fox breeder for my
next fox, if I get one, and two, I did have a DNR permit for my
first fox, because she was a red color phased Red Fox, thus, I needed
the permit.

Oh, and one last important thing. I also do have a fox vet set up.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Sorry, I made an error. I meant to say I DID have a permit for my last
fox, because she was a red phased Red Fox. Sorry for the error, and
thus, the triple post.

Oh, and while I'm at it, I must mention, please, no posts about sying
"Foxes are not pets" if you don't think I should have a fox as a pet,
please, just ignore this thread. No offense, I just don't want to hear
it, because, I know of several people, with sucessful foxes, besides
me having one.

wrote in message
...

Hey,

Another type of dog I was thinking of getting, was a wild breed of
dog, called a Marble Fox. It is basically a domestic Red Fox, with a
white with black accents, fur color phase.

I just had a question that could also apply to Coydogs, pure Coyotes,
Wolfdogs and pure Wolves.

My one neighbor said that you can apply for a variance for ANY city
regulation. Well, I was kind of thinking of moving into a city that
don't allow "Red" Foxes (they do, however, allow Fennecs) and if I do
move there, I wanted to apply for a variance to own a Marble Fox
there. You only need a DNR permit to own any native wildlife exotics,
here in Michigan, and a Marble phased Red Fox is not native. So,
everything with non-native exotics, is up to the city or township you
live in.

So has anyone here, ha a wild or part wild breed of dog, such as a
wolf, wolfdog, or any I mentioned above, who has tried to apply for a
variance in this area to keep this type of dog? Because I wondering,
in a city, what do you guys think that my odds are, of getting
approved for a variance for owning a fox? I was told on a pet message
board that, my odds probably are not good, but I figured I'd get an
opinion here, as well.

I already had a Red (phased) Fox, and so, I know what they are like,
and my neighbor told me I should mention that I have fox experience,
to the council, and the city I wanted to move in, is in my old
neighborhood, where I grew up. I wanted to buy my grandma's house, if
she ever sells, and my house was around and on the same block, so I
would be close to home. Anyway, more and more people are moving in my
grandma's neighborhood, with Pitbulls, which I would regard as, way
more dangerous than any fox (unless the fox was rabid, anyway) and my
grandma's neighbor on the one side, had a mean Rottweiler and mean
Pitbull, and the Pitbull actually got loose, and under my grandma's
fence, and bit her hand up. That Pitbull is gone now, but, now new
neighbors moved into the other side house next to my grandma, who has
five Pitbulls, and a new neighbor directly across the street, with
Pitbulls, and I've seen even more Pitbulls, in that neighborhood,
being walked by people in that neighborhood.

So, my argument for being approved for the fox variance, would be
that, I would be surrounded by people with dangerous dogs, so I don't
see why I can't have what could become a dangerous dog, just because
its a wild dog. And I wanted to argue, if they allow Fennecs, which is
a type of fox, why can't I have a Marble Fox? I'd also argue that, you
can fight off or (God forbid, if you had to do it) kill a fox easier
than a Pitbull, if you had no other choice, but to kill it.

Also, I know some people don't consider foxes as "dogs" but, even
though foxes are further away from dogs than wolves, I still consider
them "a breed of wild dog"

This may be an odd post and request, but, can anyone with a wild breed
of dog, shed some light in, on this issue, who may have experienced
this type of issue, first hand?

Tom

Oh, and two more things. One, I'm not planning to take a fox out of
the wild, for a pet. I'm going to a "captive bred" fox breeder for my
next fox, if I get one, and two, I did have a DNR permit for my
first fox, because she was a red color phased Red Fox, thus, I needed
the permit.

Oh, and one last important thing. I also do have a fox vet set up.- Hide
quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Sorry, I made an error. I meant to say I DID have a permit for my last
fox, because she was a red phased Red Fox. Sorry for the error, and
thus, the triple post.

Oh, and while I'm at it, I must mention, please, no posts about sying
"Foxes are not pets" if you don't think I should have a fox as a pet,
please, just ignore this thread. No offense, I just don't want to hear
it, because, I know of several people, with sucessful foxes, besides
me having one.


So you've had people tell you why breeding for size over quality is a bad
idea, so now you decide to bring home a wild animal? Oh, and you don't want
anyone to tell you why we think it's a bad idea. You only want sunshine
blown up your butt, why? Surely not because you think this is the right
forum to come to for unconditional love and support?
Although I am almost certain you are a troll, I will give you a teeny
benefit of a doubt. So I will ask whatever decent, humane part of you is in
there, what the hell are you thinking?!?! Why do you think it might be a
good idea to take a wild animal and keep it as a pet? I'm fairly certain
that I could keep an orangutan or an elephant "alive", but why would I want
to? And how would that serve the animal? Our job as pet stewards, is to
keep them as well as we can. We can't keep a damn fox as a pet. Not if we
aren't serving ourselves rather than the animal.
Pets are pets, wild creatures are not. Dogs shouldn't mate with wolves,
foxes or ****ing hyenas, even if it's possible. Possible doesn't make it
right.
I know you will likely jump on my ass complaining that you didn't want to be
taken to task about the topic. But I thought I'd throw it out there anyway.
If you are serious about what you say, I hope you will reconsider. If
you're a troll (as I suspect) I've wasted two minutes of my time.
--
Phyrie
Kiba the Cav's Pics:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/phyrie/...758930/detail/

"Phyrie" spoke these words of wisdom in
:


Phyrie, I think this is a troll



So you've had people tell you why breeding for size over quality is a
bad idea, so now you decide to bring home a wild animal? Oh, and you
don't want anyone to tell you why we think it's a bad idea. You only
want sunshine blown up your butt, why? Surely not because you think
this is the right forum to come to for unconditional love and support?
Although I am almost certain you are a troll, I will give you a teeny
benefit of a doubt. So I will ask whatever decent, humane part of you
is in there, what the hell are you thinking?!?! Why do you think it
might be a good idea to take a wild animal and keep it as a pet? I'm
fairly certain that I could keep an orangutan or an elephant "alive",
but why would I want to? And how would that serve the animal? Our job
as pet stewards, is to keep them as well as we can. We can't keep a
damn fox as a pet. Not if we aren't serving ourselves rather than the
animal. Pets are pets, wild creatures are not. Dogs shouldn't mate with
wolves, foxes or ****ing hyenas, even if it's possible. Possible
doesn't make it right.
I know you will likely jump on my ass complaining that you didn't want
to be taken to task about the topic. But I thought I'd throw it out
there anyway. If you are serious about what you say, I hope you will
reconsider. If you're a troll (as I suspect) I've wasted two minutes of
my time.

wrote...
So, my argument for being approved for the fox variance, would be
that, I would be surrounded by people with dangerous dogs, so I don't
see why I can't have what could become a dangerous dog, just because
its a wild dog. And I wanted to argue, if they allow Fennecs, which is
a type of fox, why can't I have a Marble Fox? I'd also argue that, you
can fight off or (God forbid, if you had to do it) kill a fox easier
than a Pitbull, if you had no other choice, but to kill it.

Also, I know some people don't consider foxes as "dogs" but, even
though foxes are further away from dogs than wolves, I still consider
them "a breed of wild dog"

This may be an odd post and request, but, can anyone with a wild breed
of dog, shed some light in, on this issue, who may have experienced
this type of issue, first hand?


I'm going to assume you aren't a troll for the moment. I know others think
you are, but for the moment you strike me as decidedly un-troll like.

My first question (and probably most important question) to you if I were
sitting on the council would be very simply "Why a fox?". I don't think
you've really answered that question.

I don't find it all relevant that others own 'dangerous dogs' that you
should be allowed to own a fox, and if you presented me that argument, I'd
reject your application. "What do you plan on doing with a fox that you
couldn't do with a dog?", "Is it just for prestige/status symbol?" I'd be
looking for some serious dedication, and demonstration of understanding of
foxes before I would even consider accepting your application.

There are plenty of reasons not to allow a non-native exotic that go *way*
beyond the 'dangerous dog' argument, that you don't seem to have a grasp on
(for now, until I know more about you, I don't think I'll share them. If you
research them on your own, it shows something entirely different than if I
hand them to you, and have you parrot them back to a city council). I would
suggest you do some research in to "wildlife translocations" and associated
problems.

If you have trouble, I'm willing to help you out, but I really think it best
that you do some of the legwork on this one.

Dale

"Dale Atkin" wrote in message
news:uzH0l.404$O53.135@edtnps82...


wrote...
So, my argument for being approved for the fox variance, would be
that, I would be surrounded by people with dangerous dogs, so I don't
see why I can't have what could become a dangerous dog, just because
its a wild dog. And I wanted to argue, if they allow Fennecs, which is
a type of fox, why can't I have a Marble Fox? I'd also argue that, you
can fight off or (God forbid, if you had to do it) kill a fox easier
than a Pitbull, if you had no other choice, but to kill it.

Also, I know some people don't consider foxes as "dogs" but, even
though foxes are further away from dogs than wolves, I still consider
them "a breed of wild dog"

This may be an odd post and request, but, can anyone with a wild breed
of dog, shed some light in, on this issue, who may have experienced
this type of issue, first hand?


I'm going to assume you aren't a troll for the moment. I know others think
you are, but for the moment you strike me as decidedly un-troll like.

My first question (and probably most important question) to you if I were
sitting on the council would be very simply "Why a fox?". I don't think
you've really answered that question.

I don't find it all relevant that others own 'dangerous dogs' that you
should be allowed to own a fox, and if you presented me that argument, I'd
reject your application. "What do you plan on doing with a fox that you
couldn't do with a dog?", "Is it just for prestige/status symbol?" I'd be
looking for some serious dedication, and demonstration of understanding of
foxes before I would even consider accepting your application.

There are plenty of reasons not to allow a non-native exotic that go *way*
beyond the 'dangerous dog' argument, that you don't seem to have a grasp
on (for now, until I know more about you, I don't think I'll share them.
If you research them on your own, it shows something entirely different
than if I hand them to you, and have you parrot them back to a city
council). I would suggest you do some research in to "wildlife
translocations" and associated problems.

If you have trouble, I'm willing to help you out, but I really think it
best that you do some of the legwork on this one.

Dale
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to remember watching a PBS special on
dogs a while back where they were discussing the different ways dogs had
been changed over the centuries. They used the fox as an example of
breeding. Someone had discovered that if certain traits were bred for, they
ended up with a fox colored like discussed here along with very gentle,
tame, dog-like traits. It acted just like a pet dog; very affectionate
towards human handlers.

Tom G.

"TomG" wrote in message
...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to remember watching a PBS special on
dogs a while back where they were discussing the different ways dogs had
been changed over the centuries. They used the fox as an example of
breeding. Someone had discovered that if certain traits were bred for,
they ended up with a fox colored like discussed here along with very
gentle, tame, dog-like traits. It acted just like a pet dog; very
affectionate towards human handlers.

Tom G.

You're kind of correct. The experiment took pure-bred foxes and then bred
them for desirable "dog" traits, e.g. handleablity, friendliness etc. Each
successive litter was chosen for traits we like in dogs. It took less than
10 generations before they had purebred foxes throwing mottled coats, curled
tails and other "dog-like" traits. The foxes were no longer "foxes", they
were almost "dogs". In just a couple of years! That's how malleable canine
genes are. And how we can so easily breed so many different dogs. The
Chihuahua and the St. Bernard started the same way, just different decisions
were made about what was desired. I heard some expert (please don't ask me
to cite) say that dogs are about the easiest animals on earth to change into
what we want.
--
Phyrie
Kiba the Cav's Pics:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/phyrie/...758930/detail/

In article , TomG wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to remember watching a PBS special on
dogs a while back where they were discussing the different ways dogs had
been changed over the centuries. They used the fox as an example of
breeding.

http://8e.devbio.com/article.php?id=223
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis -

Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community

Melinda Shore wrote:

In article , TomG wrote:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to remember watching a PBS special on
dogs a while back where they were discussing the different ways dogs had
been changed over the centuries. They used the fox as an example of
breeding.


http://8e.devbio.com/article.php?id=223

But, but, but... If you want a canid that looks and acts like a little
border collie, why not get a little border collie? It's not like
there's a shortage. There are hundreds in need of rescue.