" spoke these words of wisdom in
:

FWIW, His father seemed to have what might be considered morals, if you
can admit that dogs might have them.

But Reka, raised under the same roof, with the same strategies does
not. There seems to be a genetic connection.

Could it be as simple as XX vs. XY?

--Glenn Lyford


No, Danny had a daughter who likes rules, structure and manners so much,
and it was so evident at an early age, that her registered name was "Miss
Emily Post"

Reka is not related. MANNERS and Politeness are innate in Reka. But she
also has a bit of anarchist in her if an opportunity arises.

"diddy" none wrote in message
. ..

FWIW, His father seemed to have what might be considered morals, if you
can
admit that dogs might have them.

But Reka, raised under the same roof, with the same strategies does not.
There seems to be a genetic connection. Other dogs raised the same way do
not. Yet other people have rather astounding similar experiences with
their
dogs (at least in this breed). So this is not exclusive to just Tuck and
his breeding. And es, I consider him not the norm, not even in this
breed.

Reka would have eaten the heart without any second thoughts.

Kiba would have eaten it, too. So Tuck is "special", whatever that means.
Or at least, his line is. This is where we need those fantastical genetic
scientistical types you see on TV to tell us Tuck is from Alphacentauri and
is here to save the planet, one slipper at a time. Oh, hell, that was
dismissive, and I didn't mean it that way.
Tuck is already saving the world, one special child at a time. You and Tuck
are both very lucky to have each other.
--
Phyrie
Kiba the Cav's Pics:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/phyrie/...758930/detail/

"Phyrie" spoke these words of wisdom in
:


"diddy" none wrote in message
. ..

FWIW, His father seemed to have what might be considered morals, if you
can
admit that dogs might have them.

But Reka, raised under the same roof, with the same strategies does
not. There seems to be a genetic connection. Other dogs raised the same
way do not. Yet other people have rather astounding similar experiences
with their
dogs (at least in this breed). So this is not exclusive to just Tuck
and his breeding. And es, I consider him not the norm, not even in
this breed.

Reka would have eaten the heart without any second thoughts.

Kiba would have eaten it, too. So Tuck is "special", whatever that
means. Or at least, his line is. This is where we need those
fantastical genetic scientistical types you see on TV to tell us Tuck is
from Alphacentauri and is here to save the planet, one slipper at a
time. Oh, hell, that was dismissive, and I didn't mean it that way.
Tuck is already saving the world, one special child at a time. You and
Tuck are both very lucky to have each other.

Phyrie, there are millions of special dogs out there in this world. Most
dog's limitations are physical. They don't have opposable thumbs, nor
speech capabilities.
But dogs can make choices from little puppies.
Do i potty INSIDE? or OUTSIDE? (I think outside is better, Don't you?)
Then they learn they may not steal out of trashcans or off tBecayables.
I must not bolt out the door when visitors come.
I may not jump on visitors.
I have to go to my caller, when they call.
I must stay when told.
All these are rules which require some sense of dcision making on the part
of a dog, even though sometimes a dog would prefer to do otherwise.

Tuck was started out as a puppy being taught more complicated decision
making.
Because I believed he CAN, I push the envelope constantly.
A lot of people believe a dog is not capable. A lot of times because
religion complicates the human/dog position in this world. If you play the
"God" card, this discussion is ended.

His decision making becomes more delayed and complicated as he ages.
We develop this, just as you develop a child's ability to think and relate.

Obedience is a decision making game with a dog. i do obedience with Tuck,
but he's allowed to heel wide, because I have balance issues. If he heeled
where he's supposed to, he'd have permanently mashed toes. So in
competition obedience, he heels consistantly a foot and a half wider than
acceptable. It still passes, but I take hits for "heel wide" which is fine
with me.
He will never be a 200 dog, because of me.
But obedience allows control for decision making opportunities.
Tuck develops a sense of pride and accomplishment in doing something well.
Many obedience and agility dogs DO. This is nothing new to people who train
their dogs.

But Tuck has developed a sense of self This also is not unusual in a dog.
And as his decision making develops, he learns to follow rules better. And
then learns to apply rules in his own sets of circumstances.

Tuck has unflappable disposition. Nothing scares him, and he's extremely
self confident.
Reka does not have that boldness. Nor does she have a good sense of
competition. Reka also has a bit of a sneaky gene


If you look at the building blocks carefully put in place with Tuck, as
well as a healthy dose of genetics for intelligence and confidence (and
perhaps even problem solving)


I think all mammalian behavior is taught. But after a mammal learns
something, then he becomes capable of applying what he's learned in
the context of his living situation. Once choice/free will enters the
picture, he can choose to follow the rules, thus capable of making
moral and ethical choices. I do believe that Tuck has above average
*emotional* intelligence? (The idea of emotional intelligence is a
relatively new one, as far as formal studies go, but is being recognized
now.)

It makes me sad to think that some people who have met Tuck
and seen what he can do still think he is "lesser" and cannot have
higher cognitive abilities simply because he is not a human.

It's interesting that the same people who see such behaviors in dogs
and chimps and other creatures still maintain that morals and ethics
are something only humans are born with. But what's really odd, to me
at least, is the idea that humans are moral and ethical *without*
being trained!

Pretty much the only things mammals do without being taught is breath,
sleep, and eliminate! (Oh, and sex.)

"diddy" none wrote in message
. ..

Phyrie, there are millions of special dogs out there in this world. Most
dog's limitations are physical. They don't have opposable thumbs, nor
speech capabilities.
But dogs can make choices from little puppies.
Do i potty INSIDE? or OUTSIDE? (I think outside is better, Don't you?)
Then they learn they may not steal out of trashcans or off tBecayables.
I must not bolt out the door when visitors come.
I may not jump on visitors.
I have to go to my caller, when they call.
I must stay when told.
All these are rules which require some sense of dcision making on the part
of a dog, even though sometimes a dog would prefer to do otherwise.

Tuck was started out as a puppy being taught more complicated decision
making.
Because I believed he CAN, I push the envelope constantly.
A lot of people believe a dog is not capable. A lot of times because
religion complicates the human/dog position in this world. If you play the
"God" card, this discussion is ended.

No fear of that. I missed out on the "God" gene in the womb. I"m more
likely to believe Tuck IS from outerspace, than God-sent.

His decision making becomes more delayed and complicated as he ages.
We develop this, just as you develop a child's ability to think and
relate.

Obedience is a decision making game with a dog. i do obedience with Tuck,
but he's allowed to heel wide, because I have balance issues. If he heeled
where he's supposed to, he'd have permanently mashed toes. So in
competition obedience, he heels consistantly a foot and a half wider than
acceptable. It still passes, but I take hits for "heel wide" which is fine
with me.
He will never be a 200 dog, because of me.
But obedience allows control for decision making opportunities.
Tuck develops a sense of pride and accomplishment in doing something well.
Many obedience and agility dogs DO. This is nothing new to people who
train
their dogs.

But Tuck has developed a sense of self This also is not unusual in a dog.
And as his decision making develops, he learns to follow rules better. And
then learns to apply rules in his own sets of circumstances.

Tuck has unflappable disposition. Nothing scares him, and he's extremely
self confident.
Reka does not have that boldness. Nor does she have a good sense of
competition. Reka also has a bit of a sneaky gene

This sounds a bit like Kiba. Kiba is timid, for all his happiness and
charm. He can be frightened by a broom standing in a corner, or if his ball
bounces into a big pot on the floor. I encouraged him to get the ball out
himself, without asking for help, and now he will, but he can still startle
at sudden, new things. This may be part of what keeps our more "normal"
dogs from achieving like Tuck.

Kiba is allowed to have a pig's ear strip in his crate. ONLY his crate.
It's a "thing" we have. The other morning he wouldn't come out of the
crate. He had had a lot of exercise in the first fall of snow the night
before, and I thought maybe he was just tired or maybe a bit sore from the
running in the snow. So I left him in his crate, the door open, and left my
bedroom. About ten minutes later, I spy Kiba in the hallway, just out of
sight, pig's ear strip in mouth. He looks at me. I look at him. I ask for
the strip. He walks over to hide under one of the computer desks. Hmmm. I
sat down for a few minutes to see what he would do. After just a couple of
minutes (no chewing) he comes over to me, strip in mouth. I reach out, and
he gives it up. I look at him, and look at the strip. Now, I thought he
had been rather clever, not coming out of the crate, (I had forgotten about
the pig's ear strip in there), and then sitting where I couldn't see him.

So I just looked at the strip for a few seconds, and I gave it back to him.
He took it, but he didn't chew on it. He spent the day with it under a
cushion on the couch, with his head on the cushion, guarding it, I assume.
Once in a while, he'd carry it to a new hiding place, but he'd fish it back
out after a while, and put it back under the cushion. He eventually ate it,
but not that day. Is this morality? Or guilt? Can a dog feel guilt? If
we allow that they can be moral, we must allow them guilt. The two
characteristics go hand in hand. Or was he just happy to have his strip
outside the crate? Or even smug that I gave in? If dogs can be moral, can
they be amoral, and feel smugness, conceit and envy, and the rest? I hope
not, because then they are just furry humans.

If you look at the building blocks carefully put in place with Tuck, as
well as a healthy dose of genetics for intelligence and confidence (and
perhaps even problem solving)


I think all mammalian behavior is taught. But after a mammal learns
something, then he becomes capable of applying what he's learned in
the context of his living situation. Once choice/free will enters the
picture, he can choose to follow the rules, thus capable of making
moral and ethical choices. I do believe that Tuck has above average
*emotional* intelligence? (The idea of emotional intelligence is a
relatively new one, as far as formal studies go, but is being recognized
now.)

It makes me sad to think that some people who have met Tuck
and seen what he can do still think he is "lesser" and cannot have
higher cognitive abilities simply because he is not a human.

Not "lesser", just different. I saw on a documentary that researchers are
almost certain that dolphins may be more intelligent than we are. (How's
that for an ambiguous sentence!) I'm willing to admit that is possible.
Hell, looking at the way the world is run, it isn't that much of a stretch.
Our definitions of intelligence are changing as we learn more about the
animal world.

It's interesting that the same people who see such behaviors in dogs
and chimps and other creatures still maintain that morals and ethics
are something only humans are born with. But what's really odd, to me
at least, is the idea that humans are moral and ethical *without*
being trained!

Pretty much the only things mammals do without being taught is breath,
sleep, and eliminate! (Oh, and sex.)

And eat. Well, the need to eat. WHAT to eat is taught, I suppose.

"Phyrie" spoke these words of wisdom in
:



No fear of that. I missed out on the "God" gene in the womb. I"m more
likely to believe Tuck IS from outerspace, than God-sent.


Nope. Tuck is just a dog.
This sounds a bit like Kiba. Kiba is timid, for all his happiness and
charm. He can be frightened by a broom standing in a corner, or if his
ball bounces into a big pot on the floor. I encouraged him to get the
ball out himself, without asking for help, and now he will, but he can
still startle at sudden, new things. This may be part of what keeps our
more "normal" dogs from achieving like Tuck.

Self confidence, willingness to try and confidence in the face of failure
is important. But this is a trait, although encouraged in a nurturing
environment is still genetic.
You can enhance self confidence, but you cannot make what is not there.

Kiba is allowed to have a pig's ear strip in his crate. ONLY his crate.
It's a "thing" we have. The other morning he wouldn't come out of the
crate. He had had a lot of exercise in the first fall of snow the night
before, and I thought maybe he was just tired or maybe a bit sore from
the running in the snow. So I left him in his crate, the door open, and
left my bedroom. About ten minutes later, I spy Kiba in the hallway,
just out of sight, pig's ear strip in mouth. He looks at me. I look at
him. I ask for the strip. He walks over to hide under one of the
computer desks. Hmmm. I sat down for a few minutes to see what he
would do. After just a couple of minutes (no chewing) he comes over to
me, strip in mouth. I reach out, and he gives it up. I look at him,
and look at the strip. Now, I thought he had been rather clever, not
coming out of the crate, (I had forgotten about the pig's ear strip in
there), and then sitting where I couldn't see him.

ah HAH!! The beginning of the hot dog retrieve!

he KNEW he was out of bounds, and he does have a conscience and knew he was
wrong and relinquished.



So I just looked at the strip for a few seconds, and I gave it back to
him. He took it, but he didn't chew on it. He spent the day with it
under a cushion on the couch, with his head on the cushion, guarding it,
I assume. Once in a while, he'd carry it to a new hiding place, but he'd
fish it back out after a while, and put it back under the cushion. He
eventually ate it, but not that day. Is this morality? Or guilt? Can
a dog feel guilt? If we allow that they can be moral, we must allow
them guilt.

I allow both. I feel a dog has the emotional range of a human. Why NOT?
Well it gets sticky, when the god card is played. And scientists know
culture is so firmly entrenched in religion that society is not yet willing
to allow for that, so they don't.

That doesn't make it right, it just means man does not want to share his
role as the big kahuna on this planet. But they don't have to. How many
billion years will it take a dog to put a dog on the moon? And why would a
dog WANT to?

I doubt it's going to happen.
When are dogs going to study stem cell research, or wipe out entire
civilizations with the push of a button? When are dogs going to map their
DNA?

I really can't see that happening. Us humans will have wiped out and
overpopulated the earth before it ever does.

This makes humans the big cheese. I don't have problems sharing morality,
ethics and guilt with dogs and feel my status is threatened.

The two characteristics go hand in hand. Or was he just
happy to have his strip outside the crate? Or even smug that I gave in?
If dogs can be moral, can they be amoral, and feel smugness, conceit
and envy, and the rest? I hope not, because then they are just furry
humans.

See Above. Not "lesser", just different. I saw on a documentary that
researchers
are almost certain that dolphins may be more intelligent than we are.
(How's that for an ambiguous sentence!) I'm willing to admit that is
possible. Hell, looking at the way the world is run, it isn't that much
of a stretch. Our definitions of intelligence are changing as we learn
more about the animal world.

It's interesting that the same people who see such behaviors in dogs
and chimps and other creatures still maintain that morals and ethics
are something only humans are born with. But what's really odd, to me
at least, is the idea that humans are moral and ethical *without*
being trained!

Pretty much the only things mammals do without being taught is breath,
sleep, and eliminate! (Oh, and sex.)

And eat. Well, the need to eat. WHAT to eat is taught, I suppose.

diddy wrote:
"Phyrie" spoke these words of wisdom in
:
Can
a dog feel guilt? If we allow that they can be moral, we must allow
them guilt.

I allow both. I feel a dog has the emotional range of a human. Why NOT?

Why not, indeed. Did you ever run across McClean's triune theory
of the evolution of the human brain? Boiled down, it says that
the human brain is evolved on top of (rather than in place of)
the old reptilian brain, and that it consists of the old
reptilian brain (which controls basic functions necessary to
survival, aggression), the old mammalian brain (the limbic
system, responsible for emotional regulation and more complex
behaviors) and new mammalian brain, the cerebral cortex,
responsible for "higher functions" such as planning and language.
Each of these functions somewhat on its own, but is highly
interconnected with the other parts.

In mammals, the complexity of the cerebral cortex varies, and
became more and more elaborate in response to changing
environments. The most elaborate forms of the cerebral cortex
are found in primates (including humans) and cetaceans (whales,
porpoises). But dogs also have a cerebral cortex, which is just
relatively smaller and less elaborated than that of humans.
http://www.uwf.edu/jgould/triunebrain.pdf

Anyhow, the point of all this is just to highlight the massive
commonalities that our human brains share with those of other
mammals.

The more people study other animals with an open mind, without
imposing artificial limitations on their behaviors, the more we
recognize their rich complexity.

Well it gets sticky, when the god card is played. And scientists know
culture is so firmly entrenched in religion that society is not yet willing
to allow for that, so they don't.

You might be surprised at the number of scientists who look at
and study humans as one of many animals, not as something
separate from the rest of the animal kingdom. It's been stated
that humans have about 98+% of genes in common with chimpanzees,
and about 85% in common with mice. That's an oversimplification,
but it does give an idea of the magnitude of the amount of
genetic material that we have substantially in common (e.g., it's
not merely 10%).

That doesn't make it right, it just means man does not want to share his
role as the big kahuna on this planet. But they don't have to. How many
billion years will it take a dog to put a dog on the moon? And why would a
dog WANT to?

I doubt it's going to happen.
When are dogs going to study stem cell research, or wipe out entire
civilizations with the push of a button? When are dogs going to map their
DNA?

Give it a few million years of various selective pressures - who
knows what dogs might become (but see below).

I really can't see that happening. Us humans will have wiped out and
overpopulated the earth before it ever does.

We're well on the way... don't know what will happen to dogs, but
I think the cockroaches will survive even our best (worst?) efforts.

This makes humans the big cheese. I don't have problems sharing morality,
ethics and guilt with dogs and feel my status is threatened.

Dogs, however, might have a problem with being lumped with us humans.

It's interesting that the same people who see such behaviors in dogs
and chimps and other creatures still maintain that morals and ethics
are something only humans are born with.

That's a pretty **** poor set to inherit, if you ask me.

But what's really odd, to me
at least, is the idea that humans are moral and ethical *without*
being trained!

I think humans are much better at talking about morals and ethics
than dogs. What we actually _do_, however, is a whole 'nuther
matter.

Pretty much the only things mammals do without being taught is breath,
sleep, and eliminate! (Oh, and sex.)
And eat. Well, the need to eat. WHAT to eat is taught, I suppose.

Funny how the lines between the extremes blur as we find out
more. It's not heredity VERSUS environment any more, but how
they interact to produce behavior. It's not learning VERSUS
instinct, but how learning interacts with innate tendencies. You
are probably such a successful trainer in part because you
(consciously or unconsciously) build on your dogs' biologically
programmed tendencies.

(And back to the original point, I don't know what Tuck was
thinking, but that is one interesting behavior!)

FurPaw

--
Don't believe everything that you think.

To reply, unleash the dog.

diddy wrote:

Did he anticipate the job not finished and assume that the paycheck was not
earned and therefore would not eat it? or can you explain the dog behavior?

Not dog behavior, but a discussion of lying in primates and
dolphins.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/23/science/23angi.html

Examples: "a young baboon being chased by an enraged mother
intent on punishment suddenly stopped in midpursuit, stood up and
began scanning the horizon intently, an act that conveniently
distracted the entire baboon troop into preparing for nonexistent
intruders."

"After dolphin trainers at the Institute for Marine Mammals
Studies in Mississippi had taught the dolphins to clean the pools
of trash by rewarding the mammals with a fish for every haul they
brought in, one female dolphin figured out how to hide trash
under a rock at the bottom of the pool and bring it up to the
trainers one small piece at a time."

Oppie lies daily. After Hubster has fed him, if I walk into the
kitchen he puts on his best starving dog look and woofs his "it's
dinner time" woof.

FurPaw

--
Don't believe everything that you think.

To reply, unleash the dog.

FurPaw wrote:
diddy wrote:

Did he anticipate the job not finished and assume that the paycheck
was not earned and therefore would not eat it? or can you explain the
dog behavior?


Not dog behavior, but a discussion of lying in primates and dolphins.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/23/science/23angi.html

Examples: "a young baboon being chased by an enraged mother intent on
punishment suddenly stopped in midpursuit, stood up and began scanning
the horizon intently, an act that conveniently distracted the entire
baboon troop into preparing for nonexistent intruders."

"After dolphin trainers at the Institute for Marine Mammals Studies in
Mississippi had taught the dolphins to clean the pools of trash by
rewarding the mammals with a fish for every haul they brought in, one
female dolphin figured out how to hide trash under a rock at the bottom
of the pool and bring it up to the trainers one small piece at a time."

Oppie lies daily. After Hubster has fed him, if I walk into the kitchen
he puts on his best starving dog look and woofs his "it's dinner time"
woof.

FurPaw


Scully lies to Zane and Cooper on an almost daily basis. If she wants
one of the dog beds in the living room and both are occupied she runs
down to the foyer, stares at the door and gives one tiny woof. Of
course Cooper and Zane come on the run, baying at the tops of their lungs.

Not only does she get her favorite spot back, the boys get hollered at
for making too much noise which is the icing on the cake.

FurPaw spoke these words of wisdom in
:

diddy wrote:

Did he anticipate the job not finished and assume that the paycheck was
not earned and therefore would not eat it? or can you explain the dog
behavior?

Not dog behavior, but a discussion of lying in primates and
dolphins.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/23/science/23angi.html

Examples: "a young baboon being chased by an enraged mother
intent on punishment suddenly stopped in midpursuit, stood up and
began scanning the horizon intently, an act that conveniently
distracted the entire baboon troop into preparing for nonexistent
intruders."
Tiny Dancer sent a private email yesterday. Her dog distracted her other
dog by barking at the door, and then when the dog in possession of the bone
ran to the door to see who the intruder was, left the bone, the dog that
pulled the deceptive intruder false alarm was off stealing the bone.


I've had dogs do this many times. But so far, Tuck has never caught on to
the theft by deception game. Danny used to pull that game off on Reka and
Senja, and the beagles all the time.

He would also go get a sock. And then he'd shake the sock, roll on his
back, kick it with his hind feet, and make the sock come alive. Then he'd
drop the sick, and the other dog would grab the most interesting sock prey
in the world, and he'd snatch the bone.

Tuck isn't as bright as Danny, and theft at any time, by deception, or just
plain disrespecting property at any time would never occur to him.



"After dolphin trainers at the Institute for Marine Mammals
Studies in Mississippi had taught the dolphins to clean the pools
of trash by rewarding the mammals with a fish for every haul they
brought in, one female dolphin figured out how to hide trash
under a rock at the bottom of the pool and bring it up to the
trainers one small piece at a time."

Very cute. Much like Danny's check book hiding, and returning the check
book cover, then register, then checks.


Oppie lies daily. After Hubster has fed him, if I walk into the
kitchen he puts on his best starving dog look and woofs his "it's
dinner time" woof.

FurPaw

Tuck had played basketball with me last night for 20 minutes before my
husband came home. The instant my husband walked in the house, he met him
at the door with a basketball, and asked him to shoot some hoops. My
husband had to shoot hoops with the dog for a good 5 minutes before he
could sit down and eat supper.

DH chastized me for having a wonderful dog like Tuck, and ignoring him and
not doing anything with him.

Tuck tells him he never gets paid attention to, until my husband gets home,
I guess.

That's the closest thing I've caught Tuck to lying, unless I consider the
missing duck wing dropped in the dark last year, and I wasn't sure which
dog snatched it, only to have Tuck appear with it and offer it to me the
following day.

It WAS on the floor, so technically it was fair =game. But I think he knew
it was an accident and ill gotten gains. So the next morning it was
proferred back. I felt better, he got paid HUGELY.
It had to have been grabbed by Tuck, because the other two would have eaten
it.
But I didn't see it, and can't be sure. In the end, he did the right
thing.

Kathleen spoke these words of wisdom in
:

Scully lies to Zane and Cooper on an almost daily basis. If she wants
one of the dog beds in the living room and both are occupied she runs
down to the foyer, stares at the door and gives one tiny woof. Of
course Cooper and Zane come on the run, baying at the tops of their lungs.
Tiny Dancer wrote to me yesterday reporting something very similar with her
dogs.