For nearly 3 years, Tuck has retrieved one slipper, and I may, or may not
pay him a half a biscuit. I then ask him to retrieve the other where he
gets paid the other half biscuit. This morning, I decided by now, he
should be able to anticipate that I have two feet. I wasn't going to give
him a command to get the other slipper.
So when he brought the first slipper, I paid him an enormous paycheck of a
deer heart slice, that I was cutting at the time. I did not give him the
other command. He took the deer heart slice and ran off to the living room.
He obviously was going to enjoy the deer heart and not get my slipper.
Which was ok, or I would not have given it to him.
After washing the dishes, giving him ample time to eat his paycheck, I
finally asked him to go get the other slipper. At which time, he came to
the kitchen and surrendered his deer heart and put it in my hand, to my
surprise.

He then ran off, got the other slipper, returned to me, and accepted his
deer heart paycheck right there, and ate it.

Did he anticipate the job not finished and assume that the paycheck was not
earned and therefore would not eat it? or can you explain the dog behavior?

I'm interested in your thoughts.

On 2008-12-21 08:18:58 -0500, diddy none said:

I'm interested in your thoughts.

The slipper trick has multiple parts before it is finished. Tuck is
used to delays between parts of tricks. I would guess that he was
confused about why the trick (and I use that word only because it is
simple) was different today. You were not following the pattern, so
perhaps he thought he should wait for the whole sequence. Maybe you
wanted some different behavior from him that he couldn't figure out
because you didn't do the commands as usual.

How he thinks about his payoffs, well I can't guess.

It's interesting...

diddy none wrote in news:Xns9B7B5499ACDDEdiddydiddynet@
216.196.97.142:

I'm interested in your thoughts.

You didn't give him the second command. It sounds like he's using
that second command as a release to eat his reward, after which, his
routine is to go get the second slipper.

--
Shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net (the Mother Ship)
http://esther.cat-sidh.net (Letters to Esther)

Shelly spoke these words of wisdom in
09:

diddy none wrote in news:Xns9B7B5499ACDDEdiddydiddynet@
216.196.97.142:

I'm interested in your thoughts.

You didn't give him the second command. It sounds like he's using
that second command as a release to eat his reward, after which, his
routine is to go get the second slipper.


But he almost always get's paid for the first slipper.

And he eats his half biscuit before he gets the other.
This time, out of convenience (It's easier to give him a slice of meat that
I was working on than to go to the cookie bucket, break a cookie, give it
to him, wash my hands and resume work) he got a very high value treat
instead of his usualy half biscuit that he always eats right away before
doing the second half of the job

diddy wrote:

For nearly 3 years, Tuck has retrieved one slipper, and I may, or may not
pay him a half a biscuit. I then ask him to retrieve the other where he
gets paid the other half biscuit. This morning, I decided by now, he
should be able to anticipate that I have two feet. I wasn't going to give
him a command to get the other slipper.
So when he brought the first slipper, I paid him an enormous paycheck of a
deer heart slice, that I was cutting at the time. I did not give him the
other command. He took the deer heart slice and ran off to the living room.
He obviously was going to enjoy the deer heart and not get my slipper.
Which was ok, or I would not have given it to him.
After washing the dishes, giving him ample time to eat his paycheck, I
finally asked him to go get the other slipper. At which time, he came to
the kitchen and surrendered his deer heart and put it in my hand, to my
surprise.

He then ran off, got the other slipper, returned to me, and accepted his
deer heart paycheck right there, and ate it.

Did he anticipate the job not finished and assume that the paycheck was not
earned and therefore would not eat it? or can you explain the dog behavior?

I'm interested in your thoughts.

To be honest, there are times when I fail to grasp the logic behind my
husband's behavior, let alone that of a member of another species. I
wouldn't presume to guess what's going on in Tuck's mind.

"diddy" none wrote in message
. ..
Shelly spoke these words of wisdom in
09:

diddy none wrote in news:Xns9B7B5499ACDDEdiddydiddynet@
216.196.97.142:

I'm interested in your thoughts.

You didn't give him the second command. It sounds like he's using
that second command as a release to eat his reward, after which, his
routine is to go get the second slipper.


But he almost always get's paid for the first slipper.

And he eats his half biscuit before he gets the other.
This time, out of convenience (It's easier to give him a slice of meat
that
I was working on than to go to the cookie bucket, break a cookie, give it
to him, wash my hands and resume work) he got a very high value treat
instead of his usualy half biscuit that he always eats right away before
doing the second half of the job

Is there ever a case where you give a treat for no reason other than you
want to? Perhaps he didn't eat the very high value treat because he hadn't
done anything he considered high value. Is that possible? Much of what
Tuck does seems impossible to me, so I can't judge.
--
Phyrie
Kiba the Cav's Pics:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/phyrie/...758930/detail/

"Phyrie" spoke these words of wisdom in
:


"diddy" none wrote in message
. ..
Shelly spoke these words of wisdom in
09:

diddy none wrote in news:Xns9B7B5499ACDDEdiddydiddynet@
216.196.97.142:

I'm interested in your thoughts.

You didn't give him the second command. It sounds like he's using
that second command as a release to eat his reward, after which, his
routine is to go get the second slipper.


But he almost always get's paid for the first slipper.

And he eats his half biscuit before he gets the other.
This time, out of convenience (It's easier to give him a slice of meat
that
I was working on than to go to the cookie bucket, break a cookie, give
it to him, wash my hands and resume work) he got a very high value
treat instead of his usualy half biscuit that he always eats right away
before doing the second half of the job

Is there ever a case where you give a treat for no reason other than you
want to? Perhaps he didn't eat the very high value treat because he
hadn't done anything he considered high value. Is that possible? Much
of what Tuck does seems impossible to me, so I can't judge.

Very very rarely.
And he often spits them out until he runs to go find something, then earns
it, and takes the treat.

But he often does work for which he is never paid at all for.

He works gratis a lot. So you would think getting a freebie on rare
occassion would be a plus.

"diddy" none wrote in message
. ..

Is there ever a case where you give a treat for no reason other than you
want to? Perhaps he didn't eat the very high value treat because he
hadn't done anything he considered high value. Is that possible? Much
of what Tuck does seems impossible to me, so I can't judge.

Very very rarely.
And he often spits them out until he runs to go find something, then earns
it, and takes the treat.

But he often does work for which he is never paid at all for.

He works gratis a lot. So you would think getting a freebie on rare
occassion would be a plus.

I think there is your answer. If Tuck has the morals or values he seems to,
he wouldn't eat the deer treat, because he didn't earn it. He also finds
the job at hand it's own reward, on occasion, as evidenced by his lack of
needing a reward to work. Kiba, too, will "work" without reward, such as
fetching a ball, although he starts the game, I'm sure, with the intentions
of being treated for playing. He enjoys it, but if I throw the ball too
many times without giving him a cookie for bringing it back, the game
deteriorates.
The rule is, ball in my hand, puppy sitting, before a cookie is given. If
he doesn't receive a cookie after, say, six throws, the ball hits the floor
at my feet, instead of my hand. If I continue to throw the ball (after
picking it up myself) the ball will drop farther away. If I have to get up
to reach it, I won't play anymore, and the ball gets rolled, instead of
thrown. Or I play the game properly, with cookies given for fetched balls,
depending on whether I want to play or not.
I think Tuck knew he hadn't earned the deer slice, so didn't eat it.
Period. The fact that Tuck displays human morals and value judgements is
astonishing and incredible. In some demented way, I hope he is an
aberration of his kind, not the norm. If he's not, and is simply displaying
what is possible with the right kind of work, training and dedication, I
should give up dog ownership now, and for forever, and leave it to people
like you with much more work ethic than I will ever have.
--
Phyrie
Kiba the Cav's Pics:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/phyrie/...758930/detail/

"Phyrie" spoke these words of wisdom in
:


"diddy" none wrote in message
. ..

Is there ever a case where you give a treat for no reason other than
you want to? Perhaps he didn't eat the very high value treat because
he hadn't done anything he considered high value. Is that possible?
Much of what Tuck does seems impossible to me, so I can't judge.

Very very rarely.
And he often spits them out until he runs to go find something, then
earns it, and takes the treat.

But he often does work for which he is never paid at all for.

He works gratis a lot. So you would think getting a freebie on rare
occassion would be a plus.

I think there is your answer. If Tuck has the morals or values he seems
to, he wouldn't eat the deer treat, because he didn't earn it. He also
finds the job at hand it's own reward, on occasion, as evidenced by his
lack of needing a reward to work. Kiba, too, will "work" without
reward, such as fetching a ball, although he starts the game, I'm sure,
with the intentions of being treated for playing. He enjoys it, but if
I throw the ball too many times without giving him a cookie for bringing
it back, the game deteriorates.
The rule is, ball in my hand, puppy sitting, before a cookie is given.
If he doesn't receive a cookie after, say, six throws, the ball hits the
floor at my feet, instead of my hand. If I continue to throw the ball
(after picking it up myself) the ball will drop farther away. If I have
to get up to reach it, I won't play anymore, and the ball gets rolled,
instead of thrown. Or I play the game properly, with cookies given for
fetched balls, depending on whether I want to play or not.
I think Tuck knew he hadn't earned the deer slice, so didn't eat it.
Period. The fact that Tuck displays human morals and value judgements
is astonishing and incredible. In some demented way, I hope he is an
aberration of his kind, not the norm. If he's not, and is simply
displaying what is possible with the right kind of work, training and
dedication, I should give up dog ownership now, and for forever, and
leave it to people like you with much more work ethic than I will ever
have.
FWIW, His father seemed to have what might be considered morals, if you can
admit that dogs might have them.

But Reka, raised under the same roof, with the same strategies does not.
There seems to be a genetic connection. Other dogs raised the same way do
not. Yet other people have rather astounding similar experiences with their
dogs (at least in this breed). So this is not exclusive to just Tuck and
his breeding. And es, I consider him not the norm, not even in this breed.

Reka would have eaten the heart without any second thoughts.

FWIW, His father seemed to have what might be considered morals, if you can
admit that dogs might have them.

But Reka, raised under the same roof, with the same strategies does not.
There seems to be a genetic connection.

Could it be as simple as XX vs. XY?

--Glenn Lyford