"Nessa" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 5 Jan 2009 02:43:34 -0800, "Ted Mittelstaedt"
wrote:



I've seen my kids do just as annoying things to Ruby but while she will
snap at them if they pull her tail too much or touch her underside towards
her private parts, but, she always stops short of actually biting.

Ted


why in the world are you waiting for her to bite? because one day she
will have enough and will bite.

why do you let your kids pull her tail or touch her privates?


Ah yes, another one of those people convinced that all children can
be taught to do exactly as their parents command.

Some children are very passive and will do as their parents say.

Some children are experts at letting their parents think they are
doing what they tell them but the kid goes and does whatever they
want anyhow.

And some children simply do what they want, despite their parents
efforts.

It would be a kindness if the Universe would periodically exchange
kids from the first set of parents with the 3rd set. The 3rd set would
get a much needed break and the first set would have their smugness
driven out of them and be much less obnoxious to the people around
them.

But the Universe isn't always fair.

Ted

"Ted Mittelstaedt" wrote in message
...

why do you let your kids pull her tail or touch her privates?


Ah yes, another one of those people convinced that all children can
be taught to do exactly as their parents command.

Some children are very passive and will do as their parents say.

Some children are experts at letting their parents think they are
doing what they tell them but the kid goes and does whatever they
want anyhow.

And some children simply do what they want, despite their parents
efforts.

It would be a kindness if the Universe would periodically exchange
kids from the first set of parents with the 3rd set. The 3rd set would
get a much needed break and the first set would have their smugness
driven out of them and be much less obnoxious to the people around
them.

But the Universe isn't always fair.

Ted

Oh, eat ****, you ignorant ****. People like you are the reason our society
is going straight down the tubes. If you can't teach your children to
control themselves now, how the hell do you expect them to do so later in
life? If you've "seen my kids do just as annoying things to Ruby" why would
you let them do it? You're watching them. You can stop them. Tell them
why it's not a good idea to torture animals. Explain that all creatures
have feelings, and are deserving of respect. Pull their damn ears and ask
them if they like it! Whatever...
If they can't, or won't control themselves, you are raising soon-to-be
thieves, criminals, serial killers or just plain selfish citizens. We teach
our children control so they can take their places in society as productive
citizens. If all they learn when they are young is ME ME ME, they can't
offer anything. Less than that, they become takers, who are so self-centred
they think the world owes them a living. Cuz Daddy told them so....

You sound like the kind of parent that allows their rotten kids to run
around restaurants willy-nilly, bothering other patrons, and then getting
upset when someone asks the waiter to ask you to curb your rotten kid. I
bet you have been heard to say, "He can touch the merchandise. We are
shopping together." Asshole.

Your kind of attitude makes me spitting mad. You owe your kids, and the
rest of us, better.
--
Phyrie
Kiba the Cav's Pics:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/phyrie/...758930/detail/

On Tue, 6 Jan 2009 00:58:32 -0800, "Ted Mittelstaedt"
wrote:


"Nessa" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 5 Jan 2009 02:43:34 -0800, "Ted Mittelstaedt"
wrote:



I've seen my kids do just as annoying things to Ruby but while she will
snap at them if they pull her tail too much or touch her underside towards
her private parts, but, she always stops short of actually biting.

Ted


why in the world are you waiting for her to bite? because one day she
will have enough and will bite.

why do you let your kids pull her tail or touch her privates?


Ah yes, another one of those people convinced that all children can
be taught to do exactly as their parents command.


NOT at all. BUT if my children are so immature as to not know the
proper way to interact with a dog (that did not want to be bothered in
a certain manner) they would not be allowed to be with the dog
unsupervised and when they went to do something inappropriate such as
pull a tail, they would be instantly stopped.

Of course when they dog bites them they will learn their lesson.

I had two dogs when my kids were tiny. one was perfectly fine with
them and allowed them to teethe on her ears and tail (not that they
were unsupervised but that when they did it the dog did not react)

one was reactive in her sleep and the kids needed to be kept away from
her. she was a Shepard rottie mix and while I loved her the first
time she bit one of my kids (even though it was not her fault as the
baby bothered her while she was sleeping) she was gone. I didn't
know as much about dog parenting then as I do now.



Some children are very passive and will do as their parents say.

yeah those that are confined to wheelchairs or hospital beds.
certainly not mine.



Some children are experts at letting their parents think they are
doing what they tell them but the kid goes and does whatever they
want anyhow.

those are called teenagers. I've had three.


And some children simply do what they want, despite their parents
efforts.

OCD
ODD
ADHD
and various other alphabet soup kids have a much harder time doing
what is expected of them, but they still know the rules and can follow
them to some extent.

Again you are making excuses.


It would be a kindness if the Universe would periodically exchange
kids from the first set of parents with the 3rd set. The 3rd set would
get a much needed break and the first set would have their smugness
driven out of them and be much less obnoxious to the people around
them.


I will be delighted to let you have my kids. with their meds and all
the support staff in place.

Let's see how well you do.

newfondly yours,

Nessa
----
Dog Mom to:
Hannah age 6.5 Pitador rescued age 9 weeks
Harley small shaggy cow that pretends he's a newfoundland rescued age 10 months
(Angel) Bagel went to Rainbow Bridge 9/18/08 my Newfandstuff age 8.5

"Phyrie" wrote in
:

If you've "seen my kids do just as annoying things to Ruby" why
would you let them do it? You're watching them. You can stop
them.

No kidding. I spent last weekend at my mom's. My niece and nephew
came over, and they mobbed Harriet. That was fine, because Harriet
*loves* being mobbed by kids. As the night wore on, my niece got
over-tired and started doing things like sitting on the dog. I
reminded her to be gentle, and that was that. If she hadn't
listened, I would have put the dog in another room, where she would
have been safe from 5yo kids.

I'm not a parent, but I *do* have a responsibility to ensure that
kids play nicely with my dog. And because I do so, I can be pretty
damned sure that *my* dog (not to mention the kids who play with her)
will not become one of those unfortunate statistics we all read
about. All her interactions with kids are overwhelmingly positive,
so the chance of her ever having an opportunity to get fed up and
bite are just about zero.

Also, Ted, way to totally ignore that the OP was dealing with a dog
with serious, possibly irrepairable emotional damage.

--
Shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net (the Mother Ship)
http://esther.cat-sidh.net (Letters to Esther)

"Ted Mittelstaedt" wrote in message
...

"Nessa" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 5 Jan 2009 02:43:34 -0800, "Ted Mittelstaedt"
wrote:



I've seen my kids do just as annoying things to Ruby but while she will
snap at them if they pull her tail too much or touch her underside
towards
her private parts, but, she always stops short of actually biting.

Ted


why in the world are you waiting for her to bite? because one day she
will have enough and will bite.

why do you let your kids pull her tail or touch her privates?


Ah yes, another one of those people convinced that all children can
be taught to do exactly as their parents command.

Some children are very passive and will do as their parents say.

Some children are experts at letting their parents think they are
doing what they tell them but the kid goes and does whatever they
want anyhow.

And some children simply do what they want, despite their parents
efforts.

It would be a kindness if the Universe would periodically exchange
kids from the first set of parents with the 3rd set. The 3rd set would
get a much needed break and the first set would have their smugness
driven out of them and be much less obnoxious to the people around
them.

But the Universe isn't always fair.

I've also read some of the responses you got to this post, and they were
predictably reactive and condescending. As I have said in the "Marley and
Me" thread, creatures are probably a roughly even grab-bag of genetics and
environment. Yet it seems to be politically incorrect to allow for the
innate nature of humans and dogs. It seems that most of the regulars who
post here use this forum to feed off each other and reinforce their limited
and narrow-minded view of the way they think things are.

I am sorry that things did not work out with your dog, and it was more of a
combination of unfortunate circumstances rather than any sort of failure on
your part. So many replies were smugly judgmental and mean-spirited, that I
can only surmise that such people are intensely bitter and dissatisfied
with their lives. They feel that they must subject their dogs to constant
forceful training to achieve arbitrarily perfectionistic expectations, and
anyone who does not do as they say, or dare disagree, is attacked by the
entire henhouse of cackling crazy birds.

I am almost finished the "Marley and Me" book, and I am convinced that John
Grogan and his family did the best they could with a dog who was
genetically hard-wired to be difficult. I don't have any children, and many
of the most vocal antagonists in RPDB are also childless, but they have the
audacity to criticize you and take cheap shots at your personal life, much
worse than the little jab I made at Nick. I hope you find the strength to
continue to participate in the discussions here, and add some fresh air of
sanity to the community. There are quite a few lurkers and people who are
afraid to post their true feelings, so there is the appearance of a certain
mindset. But if you examine the posted history of many of the regulars, you
will find that many also suffer from ADHD, depression, and other mental
disorders, or at best they are just smug, bitter, and unhappy people who
make themselves feel better by belittling others.

Muttley and I applaud your efforts and your devotion to saving this poor
dog. I'm sure you will have opportunity in the future to help others.

Paul and Muttley

I just realized that I had confused the OP with Ted. Chronic pain can do
that. But I still agree with Ted, and I applaud the efforts of Jim Manson
and I am sorry for his difficult but necessary decision regarding his dog
Bear.

Paul and Muttley

"Paul E. Schoen" wrote in message
...

"Ted Mittelstaedt" wrote in message
...

"Nessa" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 5 Jan 2009 02:43:34 -0800, "Ted Mittelstaedt"
wrote:



I've seen my kids do just as annoying things to Ruby but while she will
snap at them if they pull her tail too much or touch her underside
towards
her private parts, but, she always stops short of actually biting.

Ted


why in the world are you waiting for her to bite? because one day she
will have enough and will bite.

why do you let your kids pull her tail or touch her privates?


Ah yes, another one of those people convinced that all children can
be taught to do exactly as their parents command.

Some children are very passive and will do as their parents say.

Some children are experts at letting their parents think they are
doing what they tell them but the kid goes and does whatever they
want anyhow.

And some children simply do what they want, despite their parents
efforts.

It would be a kindness if the Universe would periodically exchange
kids from the first set of parents with the 3rd set. The 3rd set would
get a much needed break and the first set would have their smugness
driven out of them and be much less obnoxious to the people around
them.

But the Universe isn't always fair.

I've also read some of the responses you got to this post, and they were
predictably reactive and condescending. As I have said in the "Marley and
Me" thread, creatures are probably a roughly even grab-bag of genetics and
environment. Yet it seems to be politically incorrect to allow for the
innate nature of humans and dogs. It seems that most of the regulars who
post here use this forum to feed off each other and reinforce their
limited and narrow-minded view of the way they think things are.

I am sorry that things did not work out with your dog, and it was more of
a combination of unfortunate circumstances rather than any sort of failure
on your part. So many replies were smugly judgmental and mean-spirited,
that I can only surmise that such people are intensely bitter and
dissatisfied with their lives. They feel that they must subject their dogs
to constant forceful training to achieve arbitrarily perfectionistic
expectations, and anyone who does not do as they say, or dare disagree, is
attacked by the entire henhouse of cackling crazy birds.

I am almost finished the "Marley and Me" book, and I am convinced that
John Grogan and his family did the best they could with a dog who was
genetically hard-wired to be difficult. I don't have any children, and
many of the most vocal antagonists in RPDB are also childless, but they
have the audacity to criticize you and take cheap shots at your personal
life, much worse than the little jab I made at Nick. I hope you find the
strength to continue to participate in the discussions here, and add some
fresh air of sanity to the community. There are quite a few lurkers and
people who are afraid to post their true feelings, so there is the
appearance of a certain mindset. But if you examine the posted history of
many of the regulars, you will find that many also suffer from ADHD,
depression, and other mental disorders, or at best they are just smug,
bitter, and unhappy people who make themselves feel better by belittling
others.

Muttley and I applaud your efforts and your devotion to saving this poor
dog. I'm sure you will have opportunity in the future to help others.

Paul and Muttley
Um, Paul? Whose post were you replying to? Is it Ted in the first
paragraph, and Jim in the second? It's a little confusing, because you say
in the second paragraph that you're sorry things didn't work out, which
would seem to refer to Jim, but then you go on to say that the replies were
"judgmental and mean-spirited", but if you go back and check, you will see
that they were unanimously supportive.

After Ted mentioned, later in the thread, that he let his kids abuse his
dog, *then* the replies became "predictably reactive", as well they should.
I don't care *what* you believe about nature/nurture, you don't sit and
watch while one creature abuses another. Do you??

"Wingnut" wrote in message
...

Um, Paul? Whose post were you replying to? Is it Ted in the first
paragraph, and Jim in the second? It's a little confusing, because you
say in the second paragraph that you're sorry things didn't work out,
which would seem to refer to Jim, but then you go on to say that the
replies were "judgmental and mean-spirited", but if you go back and
check, you will see that they were unanimously supportive.

After Ted mentioned, later in the thread, that he let his kids abuse his
dog, *then* the replies became "predictably reactive", as well they
should. I don't care *what* you believe about nature/nurture, you don't
sit and watch while one creature abuses another. Do you??

As noted, I had the two confused and did not notice until I sent the post.
But I still think there was a lot of vicious judgmentalism, especially from
Phyrie. It is usually counterproductive to publicly berate someone and
resort to foul language and assumptions. One may express differing opinions
and make suggestions for improvement without resorting to what approaches a
fit of rage. Such emotional tirades indicate something else is going on,
and it is not a "good thing".

Perhaps Ted is taking some risk by allowing the interactions between his
child and dog escalate to the point of growling and snapping, but I doubt
that the child is being really abusive. There may be a physical sensitivity
or pain issue with the dog, or it could be a sign of aggression. In the
"Marley and Me" book, the children did all sorts of things to the dog, with
no sign of any dangerous reaction.

Part of standard aggression testing involves touching a dog on every part
of its body, and also other things that children might do, such as pulling
on a tail or ear or stepping on its feet. My friend took a rescued dog to
the SPCA recently, and although the dog was probably capable of being
rehomed in the proper environment, he did not pass the basic aggression
test because of fear issues, and was put down.

Muttley might not have passed that test when I first got him, although I
never experienced any sign of aggression. But there were fear issues with
other people, and I saw the result of that when he nipped my friend in the
butt. Since then, he has been gentle and stable in the presence of young
children and most adults, but he seems to sense those who are tentative and
fearful themselves, so I need to maintain vigilence. Probably any dog will
have a breaking point that could cause self-defensive behavior that could
be dangerous.

At least Ted's dog gives warning before actually biting, but he should
observe the interaction very carefully and limit the extent that the child
is allowed to pester the dog. Some words of experience and helpful
suggestions would be much more appropriate and effective than the
hysterical outburst that he was subjected to.

Paul and Muttley

Paul E. Schoen wrote:


Perhaps Ted is taking some risk by allowing the interactions between his
child and dog escalate to the point of growling and snapping, but I doubt
that the child is being really abusive. There may be a physical sensitivity
or pain issue with the dog, or it could be a sign of aggression. In the
"Marley and Me" book, the children did all sorts of things to the dog, with
no sign of any dangerous reaction.

It doesn't really matter if the child is truly being abusive. I can see
one of two things happening, either the child IS being abusive, which
would be cruel to allow to happen. Or, the dog is slightly unstable and
allowing a child to push it over the edge is irresponsible.


Part of standard aggression testing involves touching a dog on every part
of its body, and also other things that children might do, such as pulling
on a tail or ear or stepping on its feet. My friend took a rescued dog to
the SPCA recently, and although the dog was probably capable of being
rehomed in the proper environment, he did not pass the basic aggression
test because of fear issues, and was put down.

Except not everyone out there gets a dog that was put through 'standard'
aggression testing. As far as I know there is no 'standard' in testing,
but there are standardized testing procedures. The closest thing to a
standard I know of is ATTS, but I've seen many temperament tests that
were completely different.

Regardless of if a dog has been through behavior testing or not, if you
are aware that something could lead to your dog biting a child, why
let it continue? Let the dog commit a self rewarding behavior that you
do not want to encourage? No wonder so many children are seriously
bitten by dogs a year. Either the child is actually hurting the dog,
which should be stopped, or the dog is being bothered and views a bite
as an acceptable response. Dog bites child, and the child leaves it
alone. The dog doesn't get any negatives from the interaction, so
biting must be a good solution. Maybe next time it will bite sooner or
harder, get even better results.

Jim did the responsible thing. Ted was wrong, and so are you for that
matter.

Nick

In article ,
Nick wrote:


It doesn't really matter if the child is truly being abusive. I can see
one of two things happening, either the child IS being abusive, which
would be cruel to allow to happen. Or, the dog is slightly unstable and
allowing a child to push it over the edge is irresponsible.

precisely. Ted will be the first one to blame the dog instead of his
bratty children. Why on earth would anyone allow children to pull that
crap, especially when the dog has given off warning signals?

--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com