"(null)" wrote


Dianne (who has no claim to being "a nutrition expert", just
decades of experience with lots and lots of dogs)

Since you are one of the few here who claims NOT to be a nutrition expert, I
will ask you specifically: what are three kinds of kibble I should be
considering changing to? If I cut the canned stuff, I can definitely
improve the kibble, and just add some broth. Or is the broth bad, or even
necessary.

I think I have the same problem as most pet owners. I want it to look good
enough so that I want to eat it. I confess those pictures and names on that
canned stuff makes me want to taste it when no one is looking. Then my dogs
shatter my impression of them and eat something totally disgusting, and I
think, "What the hell am I worrying about kibble/can food/broth proportions
for? I'll just get them some rotten dead deer!"

Steve

Nessa wrote:

On Mon, 05 Jan 2009 18:40:03 -0500, Janet Boss
wrote:


In article ,
"SteveB" wrote:


I think I have the same problem as most pet owners. I want it to look good
enough so that I want to eat it. I confess those pictures and names on that
canned stuff makes me want to taste it when no one is looking. Then my dogs
shatter my impression of them and eat something totally disgusting, and I
think, "What the hell am I worrying about kibble/can food/broth proportions
for? I'll just get them some rotten dead deer!"

I try not to think about what the dogs find appealing!

One of my dogs needs lower protein, so she eats JUST canned. Nothing
wrong with that (but it can get pricey I guess). My other 2 eat JUST
kibble. They also get various other things as treats - they love
grilled asparagus and green beans, fruit (especially apples!), yogurt,
cheese, etc.


my pups get kibble in the right amounts for their weight...
I add things sometimes like canned pumpkin yogurt and green beans...

I've been on a homemade yogurt-making binge lately.

Take a gallon of milk - whole, 2% or skim - and heat it almost to
boiling. Let cool to 140 degrees (use a thermometer) then whisk in 6
ounces of store-boughten yogurt with active cultures. I've been using
an organic greek-style yogurt that gives really good, tangy flavor. The
bacterial cultures vary from brand to brand so if you're going to use
your yogurt for human consumption as well as for your dogs, experiment
to find what you like best.

If you've got an old oven with a pilot light you're golden. Cover the
milk/yogurt mixture, put it in the oven and call it good. If you've got
a newer oven with an electronic starter, heat the oven to its lowest
possible setting, put your mix in and turn off the oven.

After 8 to 12 hours, take your mix out of the oven. Pour off the whey
that has separated out. Add this to your dogs' breakfast. The yogurt
is edible at this point but if you prefer a thicker, creamier texture,
proceed with the steps below.

Line a large colander with a clean bandana, set it over a large bowl and
pour the yogurt into it. Place in the fridge and allow to drain for 4
to 6 hours. In total you will wind up draining about half of the
original volume as whey. Save it to give to your dogs. What is left is
thick, creamy and tangy. Save out 4 to 6 ounces to use as starter for
your next batch.

The finished product can be fed to the dogs as is, or used for tandoori
chicken or a substitute for sour cream. Stir in sugar, vanilla and
fruit for a quick breakfast or desert.

SteveB wrote:
"(null)" wrote


Dianne (who has no claim to being "a nutrition expert", just
decades of experience with lots and lots of dogs)

Since you are one of the few here who claims NOT to be a nutrition expert, I
will ask you specifically: what are three kinds of kibble I should be
considering changing to? If I cut the canned stuff, I can definitely
improve the kibble, and just add some broth. Or is the broth bad, or even
necessary.

I think I have the same problem as most pet owners. I want it to look good
enough so that I want to eat it. I confess those pictures and names on that
canned stuff makes me want to taste it when no one is looking. Then my dogs
shatter my impression of them and eat something totally disgusting, and I
think, "What the hell am I worrying about kibble/can food/broth proportions
for? I'll just get them some rotten dead deer!"

Steve

Some people do feed road kill if it's fresh. It can be part of a species
appropriate diet. Others get deer and other animals from hunters, either
whole or in parts. And some make deals with local farmers to aquire
animals that have died.

Janet Boss wrote:
In article ,

I try not to think about what the dogs find appealing!

You should! There are reasons why dogs eat things you don't want them to
eat.


One of my dogs needs lower protein, so she eats JUST canned. Nothing
wrong with that (but it can get pricey I guess). My other 2 eat JUST
kibble. They also get various other things as treats - they love
grilled asparagus and green beans, fruit (especially apples!), yogurt,
cheese, etc.


Dairy is not a necessary food and dogs can't digest it. It causes
allergies in the majority of dogs and can cause digestive upset.

Dogs don't need veggies, either. They cannot digest carbohydrates and
carbohydrates cause many allergies and itching problems.

Dogs do best on a raw diet comprised of approximately 85% meat, 5-10% bone
and 5-10% organs (liver, kidney, spleen, tripe, etc). You can add raw eggs
a couple times a week. Feeding kibble and veggies with the meat will throw
off all the nutrient values and you will not be feeding a nutritionally
sound diet to your puppy. The only supplements you need to add are good
fish body oil and vitamin E.

http://www.rawfeddogs.net/
http://www.rawmeatybones.com/
http://rawfed.com/myths/
http://www.rawdogranch.com/rawdiet.htm
http://mypetcarnivore.com/

Canine Health Concern (England)

PO Box 7533, Rait, Perthshire PH2 1AD

Telephone 01821 670410

PRESS RELEASE

19 November 2008

FAT PETS - GOVERNMENT TARGETTING THE WRONG PEOPLE

New codes of practice state that people who refuse to put seriously fat pets
on a diet could be prosecuted under the Animal Welfare Act, facing a fine of
up to £20,000 or 12 months in jail. Proposed legislation fails to take into
account the role of the pet food manufacturing industry, which sells junk
food laden with unnecessary grains and sugars. Junk food causes obesity in
pets.

The result of poor quality junk foods are just the same for pets as they are
for humans. You end up with obese but malnourished individuals, prone to
chronic illness and early death.

Dogs and cats are carnivores. If left to their own devices, their diet would
consist of small to medium-sized prey. However, the pet food industry
ensures that dogs and cats now eat industrial waste, laden with grains and
sugars. According to the Pet Food Manufacturers Association website, "The
industry's use of by-products from the human food and agricultural
industries prevents the need for, and the costs of, disposal." Pet food
saves on landfill sites - which is great for the environment, but not
necessarily good for pets. (1)

In the natural world, dogs and cats eat muscle meat, bones, organs, and only
a small quantity of grains and vegetables. Pet food, however, typically
contains snouts, feet, spleens, skin - inferior parts of animals that cannot
go into the human food chain. Not wholefoods. The natural diet for dogs
would consist of about 60%+ raw muscle meat, offal and bones, and the
percentage would be even higher for cats. The balance in manufactured pet
food does not match this criteria.

According to the PFMA web site, "Dogs and cats have no absolute dietary
requirement for carbohydrates", but admits that cereals such as corn, rice,
wheat, and barley are added to pet food. Some grains might be acceptable,
although not necessary - but many pet foods are mostly grain-based. (2) The
PFMA also admits that sugar is added to dog and cat food. (3) Dogs and cats
have no dietary requirement for refined sugar.

"Of course animals are going to be obese if their 'energy' requirements are
met by grains and sugars - foods that they are not designed to eat in large
quantity," says Catherine O'Driscoll of Canine Health Concern. "They are
also going to be malnourished, because they're not getting the balance of
nutrients they need. Since the introduction of junk pet food dogs and cats
are suffering life-long chronic illness, and dying years before their time."

"Unfortunately," says vet Richard Allport, "the pet food industry unduly
influences the veterinary profession. Some pet food manufacturers even pay
the salaries of lecturers who teach in veterinary teaching colleges. This is
reprehensible. It unfairly influences vets, who in turn unwittingly mislead
their clients. The result is a chronically malnourished yet obese pet
population."

Dr Michael Fox, formerly chief vet at the Humane Society, says: "Processed
carbohydrates cause a periodic 'sugar rush' every time the dog or cat eats.
This damages the liver and the pancreas, resulting in the conversion of
sugar into body fat. The 'sugar rush' and insulin surge (until the pancreas
becomes exhausted) make many dogs and cats constantly hungry, so they
quickly become obese. Owners think their pets love the dry food because they
always want to eat it.

"Animals who become overweight primarily as a result of the kinds of
manufactured foods they are fed, rather than simply being over-fed and
under-exercised, are likely to develop a host of health problems like
diabetes, arthritis, skin disease, chronic inflammations, and infections
like cystitis, gingivitis, and otitis, heart and liver disease, and cancer."

If the government insists upon instigating legislation that penalises pet
owners whilst ignoring the role of the multi-million pet food industry, it
does a disservice to pets and their owners. It is targeting pet owners who
have been misled by industry through massive advertising campaigns and
veterinary misinformation.

The manufacturers of unhealthy foods for children are curtailed in their
ability to propagandise their products to children. Canine Health Concern
and its veterinary supporters suggest that the pet food industry needs such
curtailment.

ends

Notes to the editor

1. Please take a look at the Pet Food Manufacturers Association web site,
and you will see the PFMA boast that the pet food industry makes use of
waste product from the human food and agricultural industries.
http://www.pfma.org.uk/pet-food-ingr...ngredients.htm

Quote: "The industry's use of by-products from the human food and
agricultural industries prevents the need for, and the costs of, disposal."

See also http://www.pfma.org.uk/environment/environment.htm (We're talking
landfill sites.)

2.. On cereals, see:
http://www.pfma.org.uk/pet-food-ingr...et-food--3.htm


Quote: "Cereals provide an important source of energy, a proportion of
protein and other nutrients including thiamine and niacin. Although dogs and
cats have no absolute dietary requirement for carbohydrates, they present an
excellent energy source in an easily digestible form. Good sources of
carbohydrates in pet foods are usually cereal based such as corn (maize),
rice, wheat, barley or sorghum. Certain fibres (for example moderately
fermentable fibres such as beet pulp or rice bran) can have beneficial
effects on the health of the digestive tract."

In fact, grains are used in pet food because they're cheap fillers.

3. Please also see
http://www.pfma.org.uk/images/storie...0cat%20and%20\
dog%20nutrition.pdf.
This highlights the admission that pet food manufacturers add sugar to their
foods. The pet food industry historically grew from confectionary
manufacturers which needed an outlet for their waste products (viz., Mars
and Nestle).

Quote: "The term "various sugars" is a category description, which may refer
to sucrose (cane sugar, commonly known as table sugar), fructose and
glucose, all of which are natural products present in fruit, vegetables and
cereals. Some manufacturers may add sugar to pet foods as an energy source.
Through digestion dogs and cats can easily convert sugar in to usable
energy. Manufacturers may also add very small amounts of sugar to assist
with the cooking process. When the sugars are cooked along with the meat it
results in the browning of the meat and the production of natural sugars,
(just the same as those produced in the cooking of the Sunday roast), this
provides a pleasing colour and enhances palatability. If sugar is added,
levels are carefully controlled to ensure nutritional balance and
palatability."

www.canine-health-concern.org.uk

In article ,
chardonnay9 wrote:
Dairy is not a necessary food and dogs can't digest it.

Oh? Like "Kibble has had all the nutrition processed out of
it?" "Can't digest it" like that?

It causes
allergies in the majority of dogs [ ... ]

We notice when you make stuff up.

Dogs don't need veggies, either. They cannot digest carbohydrates

Do you even know what "digest" means?
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis -

Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community

In article ,
chardonnay9 wrote:


Dairy is not a necessary food and dogs can't digest it. It causes
allergies in the majority of dogs and can cause digestive upset.

Majority? Where did I say "necessary"? CAN'T digest?

Dogs don't need veggies, either. They cannot digest carbohydrates and
carbohydrates cause many allergies and itching problems.

Once again - where is the NEED mentioned? No allergies, no itching
problems and they get veggies as TREATS.

Dogs do best on a raw diet comprised of approximately 85% meat, 5-10% bone
and 5-10% organs (liver, kidney, spleen, tripe, etc).

Where do you get this "best" crap (and repeatedly)?

You can add raw eggs
a couple times a week. Feeding kibble and veggies with the meat will throw
off all the nutrient values and you will not be feeding a nutritionally
sound diet to your puppy.

I don't have a puppy. I don't feed raw to puppies anyway. I don't mix
kibble and veggies with meat. You don't have a clue what constitutes
"nutritionally sound".

The only supplements you need to add are good
fish body oil and vitamin E.

I'm not supplementing with any foods. You make things up. How much
Vitamin E should I give them again? They weigh 42# (15 months old), 68#
(3 years old), and 63# (12 years old). Thanks so much for your answer!

--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com

"Melinda Shore" wrote in message
...
In article ,
chardonnay9 wrote:
Dairy is not a necessary food and dogs can't digest it.

Oh? Like "Kibble has had all the nutrition processed out of
it?" "Can't digest it" like that?

It causes
allergies in the majority of dogs [ ... ]

We notice when you make stuff up.

Dogs don't need veggies, either. They cannot digest carbohydrates

Do you even know what "digest" means?
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis -

Gawd, it's like us with Lawn Darts, SpudGuns and BB guns. How did we all
survive before modern times and all these geniuses among us?

Steve

"chardonnay9" wrote in message
m...
SteveB wrote:
"(null)" wrote


Dianne (who has no claim to being "a nutrition expert", just
decades of experience with lots and lots of dogs)

Since you are one of the few here who claims NOT to be a nutrition
expert, I will ask you specifically: what are three kinds of kibble I
should be considering changing to? If I cut the canned stuff, I can
definitely improve the kibble, and just add some broth. Or is the broth
bad, or even necessary.

I think I have the same problem as most pet owners. I want it to look
good enough so that I want to eat it. I confess those pictures and names
on that canned stuff makes me want to taste it when no one is looking.
Then my dogs shatter my impression of them and eat something totally
disgusting, and I think, "What the hell am I worrying about kibble/can
food/broth proportions for? I'll just get them some rotten dead deer!"

Steve

Some people do feed road kill if it's fresh. It can be part of a species
appropriate diet. Others get deer and other animals from hunters, either
whole or in parts. And some make deals with local farmers to aquire
animals that have died.

I have heard that deer fat makes excellent bird suet, even raw. If it's
good for dogs, I'm in prime territory, as right now, there's five dead deer
out on the Interstate. They're all blown to smithereens, but the dogs won't
notice. I'll check with food and game. Oh, yeah. I'll also ask around for
diseased cattle, horse, and swine.

Feed my dogs dead farm animals? Where do you get this stuff? Did you take
acid when you were young? A lot?

Steve

Steve

In article ,
SteveB wrote:
Gawd, it's like us with Lawn Darts, SpudGuns and BB guns. How did we all
survive before modern times and all these geniuses among us?

Typically, "we" didn't, dying young of things that are
easily treated now.

http://www.waronscience.com/home.php
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis -

Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community

SteveB wrote:
"chardonnay9" wrote in message
m...
SteveB wrote:
"(null)" wrote


Dianne (who has no claim to being "a nutrition expert", just
decades of experience with lots and lots of dogs)
Since you are one of the few here who claims NOT to be a nutrition
expert, I will ask you specifically: what are three kinds of kibble I
should be considering changing to? If I cut the canned stuff, I can
definitely improve the kibble, and just add some broth. Or is the broth
bad, or even necessary.

I think I have the same problem as most pet owners. I want it to look
good enough so that I want to eat it. I confess those pictures and names
on that canned stuff makes me want to taste it when no one is looking.
Then my dogs shatter my impression of them and eat something totally
disgusting, and I think, "What the hell am I worrying about kibble/can
food/broth proportions for? I'll just get them some rotten dead deer!"

Steve
Some people do feed road kill if it's fresh. It can be part of a species
appropriate diet. Others get deer and other animals from hunters, either
whole or in parts. And some make deals with local farmers to aquire
animals that have died.

I have heard that deer fat makes excellent bird suet, even raw. If it's
good for dogs, I'm in prime territory, as right now, there's five dead deer
out on the Interstate. They're all blown to smithereens, but the dogs won't
notice. I'll check with food and game. Oh, yeah. I'll also ask around for
diseased cattle, horse, and swine.

Feed my dogs dead farm animals? Where do you get this stuff? Did you take
acid when you were young? A lot?

Steve

Steve



Dead farm animals are in kibble anyway. So are euthanized pets, along
with their flea collars and whatever drugs were used to put them down.

If I hit a deer it's going home with me.

And please, if you have to put words in my mouth in order to trash me
then you haven't really disputed what I actually did say. Many times
farms have animals that died but are not diseased and they are much
better to feed than that kibble full of chemicals and roadkill that is
not fresh.