Nessa said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

I'm not very good at this but my first thought was Beagle.

I agree, though I'm not very good at this, either.

--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

Rocky:

I'm not very good at this but my first thought was Beagle.

I agree, though I'm not very good at this, either.

Yeah, I could kind of see that although I think she is too big for a
beagle mix, 55 lbs and growing. I had a beagle/dane mix as a kid and he
was built like an english bulldog.

Judith Althouse:

I have ulterior motives as I do not want her sent back to the SPCA
becausse every time she is returned makes her less adoptable obviously.

I don't want to return her either because 95% of the time she is very
sweet. Today we had guests including three kids and my nerves were on edge
all day hoping there wouldn't be an incident. The youngest girl (3yo) had
a fright and claimed that Polly tried to bite her but there was no mark so
I wasn't sure what happened. Then later in the day, out of the blue, Polly
just suddenly turned and bit my six year old daughter on the thigh,
leaving a bruise but drawing no blood. When it happened my wife grabbed
the dog with one arm cradled under her chin and the other arm under her
belly, something she learned in obedience training and scolded her.
Afterward both my wife and the dog were moping around the house.

Training is the key and as Diddy said in an earlier post be sure to tell
the trainer of her behavior in the event that she doesn't exhibit it
while at a training session.

The only thing I have to add is that though I believe she can be taught
to behave and can be trained not to nip. Please be sure to protect your
children until she is trained. Her behavior could escalate and whether
it does or not being nipped could harm them or at the least instill a
fear of her and dogs in general.

Unfortunately I don't know how to protect my children without confining
the dog. Early on her nips were part of play but the last several days
they have been out of the blue with no warning. At this point we are
losing trust in her and I'm afraid to take a chance on her biting one of
our kids or a guest. Monday we're going to contact the behavior specialist
at the SPCA but I have to admit that I am leaning strongly towards
returning her to the SPCA for biting behavior. It's one thing to
discourage play biting but sudden random bites are something else.

On 11 Jan 2009 06:19:36 GMT, Mac Cool wrote:

The youngest girl (3yo) had
a fright and claimed that Polly tried to bite her but there was no mark so
I wasn't sure what happened. Then later in the day, out of the blue, Polly
just suddenly turned and bit my six year old daughter on the thigh,

wait wait wait the dog was just sitting there the kid was doing
NOTHING and the dog bit out of the blue while awake with no
provocation?

is that what you mean?

newfondly yours,

Nessa
----
Dog Mom to:
Hannah age 6.5 Pitador rescued age 9 weeks
Harley small shaggy cow that pretends he's a newfoundland rescued age 10 months
(Angel) Bagel went to Rainbow Bridge 9/18/08 my Newfandstuff age 8.5

"Mac Cool" wrote in message
...
She was really sweet at the SPCA and she got the highest scores on their
personality tests but now that she's becoming comfortable with us (been
about 10 days) she starting to nip at the kids and myself.

Have you talked to the SPCA at all since getting her? I know the shelter
here (Calgary) has a really great behavioral resource center to talk to. At
least around here, if you're willing to work with her, they are more
interested in helping you work with the dog, than see her come back.

Dale

"Mac Cool" wrote in message
...
Judith Althouse:

I have ulterior motives as I do not want her sent back to the SPCA
becausse every time she is returned makes her less adoptable obviously.

I don't want to return her either because 95% of the time she is very
sweet. Today we had guests including three kids and my nerves were on
edge
all day hoping there wouldn't be an incident. The youngest girl (3yo) had
a fright and claimed that Polly tried to bite her but there was no mark
so
I wasn't sure what happened. Then later in the day, out of the blue,
Polly
just suddenly turned and bit my six year old daughter on the thigh,
leaving a bruise but drawing no blood. When it happened my wife grabbed
the dog with one arm cradled under her chin and the other arm under her
belly, something she learned in obedience training and scolded her.
Afterward both my wife and the dog were moping around the house.

I don't know if it was a good response or not, but there seems to be
something terribly wrong. Possibly the fact that everyone was on edge was
picked up by the dog and caused the behavior, but if these bites have been
unprovoked and not preceded by any warning, it is a very serious matter. If
I had experienced any such behavior with Muttley, I would have had him put
down. The fact is that he did bite someone, once, but it was (in my dog's
mind) provoked, and he had given some warning by barking and showing
fearful behavior, which I dismissed at the time, not knowing it could lead
to a bite.

And I was advised to have him put down after he exhibited dog aggression
during group obedience classes. But there were contributing factors that
explained his behavior. I had been subjecting him to very forceful
corrections on a prong collar while he was attempting to interact with
other dogs, and I think he associated my frustrated and unusual actions
with the other dogs, and it resulted in redirected aggression. There have
been no incidents since then, after more than two years, so I think he is
stable and trustworthy.


Training is the key and as Diddy said in an earlier post be sure to tell
the trainer of her behavior in the event that she doesn't exhibit it
while at a training session.

The only thing I have to add is that though I believe she can be taught
to behave and can be trained not to nip. Please be sure to protect your
children until she is trained. Her behavior could escalate and whether
it does or not being nipped could harm them or at the least instill a
fear of her and dogs in general.

Unfortunately I don't know how to protect my children without confining
the dog. Early on her nips were part of play but the last several days
they have been out of the blue with no warning. At this point we are
losing trust in her and I'm afraid to take a chance on her biting one of
our kids or a guest. Monday we're going to contact the behavior
specialist
at the SPCA but I have to admit that I am leaning strongly towards
returning her to the SPCA for biting behavior. It's one thing to
discourage play biting but sudden random bites are something else.

IMHO, training can only go so far to mitigate dangerous behavior such as
this. Most dogs have a human bite inhibition which may be genetically
determined, or taught during the early formative weeks of puppyhood. I wish
you luck with the behaviorist, but I doubt that any simple training or
behavior modification technique will be able to eliminate this potential
danger or restore your confidence in the dog. A professional behaviorist
will cost $500 to $1000 or more, and for that you can save several other
dogs who otherwise would be put down for no other reason than there is not
enough room. As I was told by the dog trainer who provided obedience
lessons for me and Muttley, "They can't all be saved". But I had bonded
with Muttley in the six months I had been fostering him, and others who
knew him urged me to spare his life, and I am glad I did.

But I don't think you and your family have yet formed such as bond and
level of trust with your dog, and the relationship has been eroded by your
recent experiences, so I think the kindest thing would be to return this
dog and try to rescue another one that is more stable. Probably an older
dog with more of a known previous history would be a good choice. I know
this is a difficult thing, but I was prepared to do it for Muttley, until I
assured myself that I could keep him safely and not present a danger to
myself (which was never an issue), or to others.

Paul and Muttley
www.smart.net/~pstech/Muttley/MuttleyStory.htm

"Paul E. Schoen" wrote:

IMHO, training can only go so far to mitigate dangerous behavior such as
this. Most dogs have a human bite inhibition which may be genetically
determined, or taught during the early formative weeks of puppyhood.

First, IMO it's grossly inaccurate to say that most dogs have that sort of
inhibition; many don't. Second, bite inhibition can be taught at any age,
although it's easier to teach human-appropriate inhibition at the same time
as the dog learns dog-appropriate bite inhibition.

Last, but far from least, this dog DOES have bite inhibition. The term
does not mean "not biting", it means "controlling the bite". The fact that
she only left bruises means that she was using quite a bit of inhibition,
since an NON-inhibited bite from a dog that size would have left - at a
minimum- deep puncture wounds.
In fact, personally I'd classify that a hard nip, not a "bite"; it could
even have been a play bite, although it's more likely that it was either
disciplinary or bullying.

Regardless, the behaviour isn't acceptable (unless the child was threatening
or teasing the dog, in which case a pinch that leaves a bruise is perfectly
appropriate IMO, although many would disagree), and there's always a
potential for escalation.

But without seeing the behaviour, and what triggered it (and I will lay
money there WAS a trigger that would have been apparent to someone more
experienced), we're all talking in a vaccuum.

"sionnach" wrote in message
...

"Paul E. Schoen" wrote:

IMHO, training can only go so far to mitigate dangerous behavior such as
this. Most dogs have a human bite inhibition which may be genetically
determined, or taught during the early formative weeks of puppyhood.

First, IMO it's grossly inaccurate to say that most dogs have that sort
of inhibition; many don't. Second, bite inhibition can be taught at any
age, although it's easier to teach human-appropriate inhibition at the
same time as the dog learns dog-appropriate bite inhibition.

Last, but far from least, this dog DOES have bite inhibition. The term
does not mean "not biting", it means "controlling the bite". The fact
that she only left bruises means that she was using quite a bit of
inhibition, since an NON-inhibited bite from a dog that size would have
left - at a minimum- deep puncture wounds.
In fact, personally I'd classify that a hard nip, not a "bite"; it could
even have been a play bite, although it's more likely that it was either
disciplinary or bullying.

Regardless, the behaviour isn't acceptable (unless the child was
threatening or teasing the dog, in which case a pinch that leaves a
bruise is perfectly appropriate IMO, although many would disagree), and
there's always a potential for escalation.

But without seeing the behaviour, and what triggered it (and I will lay
money there WAS a trigger that would have been apparent to someone more
experienced), we're all talking in a vaccuum.

Thanks for clearing that up. I have found some references that say the same
thing, and also offer some advice, which includes the use of a muzzle, as I
had suggested:

http://www.paw-rescue.org/PAW/PETTIP...Inhibition.php

http://www.canismajor.com/dog/bite2.html

This may also be helpful to the OP:

http://www.canismajor.com/dog/kidsdog1.html

Here are some quotes from the following article:

"A dog's temperament is first inherited, then modified by events in his
life and proper training."

"Very few bites happen without provocation -- but the provocation may exist
only in the dog's mind!"

http://www.canismajor.com/dog/kidsdog2.html

Here's another way of looking at it:

http://www.deesdogs.com/documents/bi...nfuzzyterm.pdf

I still think a muzzle is a good idea, and better than isolation in a
crate. The muzzle will eliminate the chance of a severe bite, while
allowing safe interaction between the dog and children and adults. If the
dog attempts to bite, then there is something wrong that needs to be
corrected. In a crate, the dog does not have the interactions that might
trigger the behavior, so you cannot observe the situation that leads to the
bite.

Paul and Muttley

Paul E. Schoen wrote:


I still think a muzzle is a good idea, and better than isolation in a
crate. The muzzle will eliminate the chance of a severe bite, while
allowing safe interaction between the dog and children and adults.

Also can cause frustration. Do you expect the dog to live the rest of
it's life with a muzzle on? If not then the problem needs fixed or the
dog needs to go to someone that will fix it or put it to sleep. And, if
you plan on the dog living the rest of it's life with a muzzle on then
it needs to be a properly sized quality muzzle that allows the dog to
both drink and pant while the muzzle is on. It would be even better if
the dog can also eat with a muzzle on. Muzzles that fit that bill are
not cheap. And in the end, is that really a life for a dog?

If the
dog attempts to bite, then there is something wrong that needs to be
corrected. In a crate, the dog does not have the interactions that might
trigger the behavior, so you cannot observe the situation that leads to the
bite.


And out of the crate wearing a muzzle, the dog just gets frustrated if
it wants to bite. What good does that do. The dog either needs work
with a professional or to be returned for biting. Muzzles are a tool,
and just like all tools they should be left to the guidance of a
professional.

Nick

"Nick" wrote in message
...
Paul E. Schoen wrote:


I still think a muzzle is a good idea, and better than isolation in a
crate. The muzzle will eliminate the chance of a severe bite, while
allowing safe interaction between the dog and children and adults.

Also can cause frustration. Do you expect the dog to live the rest of
it's life with a muzzle on? If not then the problem needs fixed or the
dog needs to go to someone that will fix it or put it to sleep. And, if
you plan on the dog living the rest of it's life with a muzzle on then
it needs to be a properly sized quality muzzle that allows the dog to
both drink and pant while the muzzle is on. It would be even better if
the dog can also eat with a muzzle on. Muzzles that fit that bill are
not cheap. And in the end, is that really a life for a dog?

I do agree with you there. The muzzle should be a temporary tool to avoid
injury in case the dog tries to bite. But she should not be biting the way
she has, and hopefully the OP will be able to resolve the issue with the
help of the SPCA. However, I think it will take a lot of work, and the fact
that there are two children involved makes me think it would be best to get
a dog with more proven temperament. Even Marcel, with his depth of
knowledge and experience with dogs, had to rehome his beloved Moogli
because of the safety of his children. The OP has a larger dog who is going
through adolescence, and thus will be even more unpredictable.

If the
dog attempts to bite, then there is something wrong that needs to be
corrected. In a crate, the dog does not have the interactions that might
trigger the behavior, so you cannot observe the situation that leads to
the
bite.


And out of the crate wearing a muzzle, the dog just gets frustrated if
it wants to bite. What good does that do. The dog either needs work
with a professional or to be returned for biting. Muzzles are a tool,
and just like all tools they should be left to the guidance of a
professional.

I don't know if the dog would be more frustrated trying to bite with a
muzzle, or being corrected for biting without it. Definitely the behavior
needs to be corrected. The muzzle should be only a safety precaution.

Muttley and I met a dog, on the NCRR trail, who was wearing a muzzle and
snarling and straining on his leash. I think the owner was also holding
another small dog. Fortunately Muttley just kept his eye on them and we
walked by with no further interaction. I certainly would not want a dog
that required a muzzle and reacted so strongly to another dog or person
calmly walking by. It would probably take a lot of work to make such a dog
safe and pleasant to live with. I think a dog like that is best euthanized
to allow a much "nicer" dog to live.

Paul and Muttley