Tara Green wrote:
FurPaw wrote:

chardonnay9 wrote:


People were mislead to believe the flu vaccine for instance is really
fighting the flu when it's not. And polio was already well on it's
way out before the vaccine was even available. There are lots more
examples.


Good heavens, what are you reading? "Polio was already well on it's
[sic] way out"??? I guess that would be true only in those countries
that have near universal vaccination, eh? In others, where it's not
as widely available, like Darfur, Chad, Nigeria, polio is still
managing to wreak its havoc. Funny how that pesky virus would hang
out only in those countries where the efforts to eradicate it fell
short...


Yeah. That particular gem stood out to me as well.

Where is she getting this information?

Polio was NOT on its way out. It faded *because* of widespread vaccines.
In countries where they didn't vaccinate everyone, it's still quite a
vital little problem.

Remember guys that Chardonnay is not capable of rational thought. It's
my opinion that she's mentally ill. Which doesn't excuse her dangerous
advice. But engaging her directly on these topics is pretty futile.

We just need to make sure that others know her advice is faulty and
dangerous.

Robin Nuttall wrote:

Remember guys that Chardonnay is not capable of rational thought. It's
my opinion that she's mentally ill. Which doesn't excuse her dangerous
advice. But engaging her directly on these topics is pretty futile.

We just need to make sure that others know her advice is faulty and
dangerous.

You are making a medical diagnosis online for someone you know nothing
about and for a condition you aren't qualified to diagnose.

Melinda Shore wrote:
My vet
recommends that if you're going to get lepto vaccines, wait
until spring.





The TRUTH About Leptospirosis

From: Dr Andrew Jones
Author: Veterinary Sec.rets Revealed
Website: http://www.veterinarysecretsrevealed.com


Her Vet wants to vaccinate for Lepto..Yes or No?


//////////////////////////////////////////////


Good morning Veterinary Secrets readers.


Many of you responded after my newsletters on vaccines,
and I am wanting to address some of your specific questions.


First here is a question from Pam, who vaccinates her pets
very infrequently, her veterinarian supports this, but her
vet wants her to have Leptospirosis vaccine..

Hi, I have a vaccine question for you.


We have (currently) 4 dogs & 3 cats. 2 cats never go outside,
and the 1 that does lives inside a heated building on our property
where I run my business.

We have not given the inside cats any vaccines since the
initial ones when they were kittens and will never will either.


The one that goes outside gets a rabies every 3 years.


We've backed off on everything with the dogs except for
rabies every 3 years. Our vet knows how we feel about
all the over-vaccinating and respects that. But
this past spring she said the only thing she would fight
us on was the lepto because she's seen too many cases of it.


What is your opinion on this?


Thanks for this awesome program you've created to help
all of us take better care of our babies.


Take care, Pam


Thank YOU for the kind words Pam!


Now to your question.


First here is What it is....


Description:


Leptospires are thin, filamentous, motile bacteria that are spiral
in shape and have hooked ends.


Transmission of the infection may occur via several routes,
such as orally (primarily contact with urine), venereally,
across the placenta, through broken skin (e.g. bite wounds),
or by the ingestion of infected tissues.

The bacteria may also be acquired from contact with
contaminated soil, food, water, bedding and other
fomites. The bacteria prefer soil that is moist and has
a neutral pH, as well as stagnant or slow-moving warm
water.

1,2Water is most often contaminated from the urine
of infected animals, as the bacteria may be shed in
the urine for months after an infection.

Because Leptospires prefer warm weather and are readily killed
by freezing, the incidence of clinical disease is greatest in late
summer to early winter (August - December), in the southern
areas of the United States, and in semitropical regions around
the world. Disease prevalence also increases after periods of wet
weather.


Leptospires penetrate the mucous membranes or abraded
skin and produce a bacteremia within 3-8 days. Infection
then spreads to a variety of tissues, including the kidneys,
liver, spleen, pancreas, CNS, genital tract, and eyes.

The bacteria commonly localize in the kidneys, causing
impaired renal function. Acute nephritis develops and
may progress to chronic renal failure.

Leptospires appear in the urine about 12-15 days
post-infection, and may persist for up to four years.
2 Infection of the liver is also common and results
in hepatic necrosis and icterus.

Historically, renal disease has often been associated
with L. canicola and L. grippotyphosa infections, and
liver disease has been associated with L. icterohaemorrhagiae
and L. pomona infections (especially in dogs 6 months old).

Overlap occurs in the clinical syndromes
caused by the various serovars, however.

PREVENTION..


It MAY be prevented with Vaccines, BUT that depends
upon the specific strain of Lepto..

Over the last 15 years, the serovars involved in clinical cases of
canine leptospirosis have shifted from predominately L. canicola
and L. icterohaemorrhagiae to L. pomona, L. grippotyphosa, L. autumnalis,
and L. bratislava. Historically most vaccines for dogs
contained primarily the serovars L. canicola and L. icterohaemorrhagiae.

With the realization that other serovars are now
contributing more to clinical disease in dogs,
vaccines have recently been produced that also
contain L. pomona, L. hardjo and L. grippotyphosa.

POST VACCINAL REACTIONS


Postvaccinal reactions are common with the leptospiral bacterins.
They include hypersensitivity reactions, localized inflammation at
the injection site, and generalized malaise (sometimes with fever).


Prevention of leptospirosis also involves the elimination of carrier
states and the avoidance of potential sources of the bacteria in
nature. Isolation of infected animals, the use of doxycycline to
eliminate leptospiruria, strict sanitation in kennels and hospital
settings, control of local rodent populations, and elimination of
stagnant or warm, slow-moving water are all measures that may
help prevent this disease. The bacteria are usually sensitive to
the iodine-based disinfectants.


SO what do I advise?


Well that partially depends on where you live, and your dog's
lifestyle.

If you area has abundant Lepto, AND your dogs are regularly in
slow moving warm water, then you could CONSIDER the Vaccine.

I for one am NOT convinced that the Lepto vaccine is that effective...


There are MULTIPLE strains of the disease, AND it is very difficult
to create an effective vaccine for anything other than a virus.


I started in practice 15 years ago, and I once regularly vaccinated
for Lepto..AND I saw a LARGE number of serious VACCINE REACTIONS.


I DO NOT advize giving it to ANY of my local clients here,
BUT I livein an area that FREEZES ( it is below ZERO now),
hence Lepto is not a problem.


As for WHAT you should do?


Talk to your Veterinarian and explain your concerns.


Its ALL about RISK/BALANCE


If you choose to NOT VACCINATE for Lepto, and one of your
dogs contracts the disease, they can generally be treated early
on with a penicillin based antibiotic..but there is the RISK of
some serious long term side effects.


THEN there is ALSO the RISK of some serious
LONG TERM side effects with the Vaccine.

WHAT would I do??


NOT VACCINATE.


My personal opinion and I really feel that the Vaccine RISKS
outweigh the REWARDS of protecting against POTENTIAL DISEASE.


//////////////////////////////////////////////


P.S. If you are wanting to get your hands on WHAT Pam is talking
about, and find the BEST ways to PROTECT your Dog or Cat
without VACCINES then you should visit:


Veterinary Secrets Revealed Complete Home Study Multimedia Course


Dr Andrew Jones, DVM


Copyright 2007 Veterinary Sec.rets Revealed


Tel: 1-800-396-1534
Fax: 1-250-352-1901
http://www.veterinarysecretsrevealed.com/ebook/

----- Original Message -----
From: "chardonnay9"
The TRUTH About Leptospirosis

From: Dr Andrew Jones
Author: Veterinary Sec.rets Revealed
Website: http://www.veterinarysecretsrevealed.com

Overall an interesting article, a few points for consideration though....

It MAY be prevented with Vaccines, BUT that depends
upon the specific strain of Lepto..

Over the last 15 years, the serovars involved in clinical cases of
canine leptospirosis have shifted from predominately L. canicola
and L. icterohaemorrhagiae to L. pomona, L. grippotyphosa, L. autumnalis,
and L. bratislava. Historically most vaccines for dogs
contained primarily the serovars L. canicola and L. icterohaemorrhagiae.

With the realization that other serovars are now
contributing more to clinical disease in dogs,
vaccines have recently been produced that also
contain L. pomona, L. hardjo and L. grippotyphosa.

I'd encourage you to think about this for a minute in terms of
effectiveness. A correlation between what we're vaccinating against, and
what we find in the environment to me is interesting. If we have a
widespread vaccination effort againts 'A' and then the quantity of 'A' goes
down, this to me suggests a cause and effect relationship (of course the
amount of other bugs in the environment will have a corresponding increase
b.c. of competition, or lack thereof).

Postvaccinal reactions are common with the leptospiral bacterins.
They include hypersensitivity reactions, localized inflammation at
the injection site, and generalized malaise (sometimes with fever).

Those don't seem like particularly serious reactions. I'd like some
qualification on 'common' (to some people common means 1% to some it means
50%)

Well that partially depends on where you live, and your dog's
lifestyle.

This is always good advice.


If you area has abundant Lepto, AND your dogs are regularly in
slow moving warm water, then you could CONSIDER the Vaccine.


I think everyone should 'consider' a vaccine (I have considered, and
rejected lepto vaccine for the simple reason that we don't get it here...)

I for one am NOT convinced that the Lepto vaccine is that effective...

Glad the author specifies this as his opinion. The data he presents would
indicate otherwise to me.


There are MULTIPLE strains of the disease, AND it is very difficult
to create an effective vaccine for anything other than a virus.


I started in practice 15 years ago, and I once regularly vaccinated
for Lepto..AND I saw a LARGE number of serious VACCINE REACTIONS.

I would be more convinced with some numbers here. Is 10 a 'large number'.
How many/how often was he vaccinating?

I DO NOT advize giving it to ANY of my local clients here,
BUT I livein an area that FREEZES ( it is below ZERO now),
hence Lepto is not a problem.

This is good advice. Don't vaccinate for things that aren't endemic (and
aren't in danger of becoming endemic).

If you choose to NOT VACCINATE for Lepto, and one of your
dogs contracts the disease, they can generally be treated early
on with a penicillin based antibiotic..but there is the RISK of
some serious long term side effects.


THEN there is ALSO the RISK of some serious
LONG TERM side effects with the Vaccine.

Interesting choice of capitalizations here. The 'long term' in the not
vaccinating was lower case and that in the 'vaccinate' category was upper
case.


WHAT would I do??


NOT VACCINATE.


My personal opinion and I really feel that the Vaccine RISKS
outweigh the REWARDS of protecting against POTENTIAL DISEASE.


Given the evidence presented, I can't say I'm convinced.

Dale

Dale Atkin wrote:


Over the last 15 years, the serovars involved in clinical cases of
canine leptospirosis have shifted from predominately L. canicola
and L. icterohaemorrhagiae to L. pomona, L. grippotyphosa, L.
autumnalis, and L. bratislava. Historically most vaccines for dogs
contained primarily the serovars L. canicola and L. icterohaemorrhagiae.

With the realization that other serovars are now
contributing more to clinical disease in dogs,
vaccines have recently been produced that also
contain L. pomona, L. hardjo and L. grippotyphosa.

I'd encourage you to think about this for a minute in terms of
effectiveness. A correlation between what we're vaccinating against, and
what we find in the environment to me is interesting. If we have a
widespread vaccination effort againts 'A' and then the quantity of 'A'
goes down,

But did it really go down? And if it did was the vaccine responsible?
Vaccines are thought to be the cause of many reductions in illness but
many times it's found not to be true.

I'd never bother getting a flu shot for example, because statistics
don't support that they actually prevent illness.


this to me suggests a cause and effect relationship (of
course the amount of other bugs in the environment will have a
corresponding increase b.c. of competition, or lack thereof).

On Jan 25, 9:01*pm, "Dale Atkin" wrote:
If you'd like I can ask my immunology prof as to the current thinking on
why some vaccines are given annually, and others at wider intervals
(whether its a characteristic of the virus, or if its a characteristic of
the vaccine, or if its a lack of data).

There is no lack of data and even more is coming when the Rabies Challenge
is complete. Unfortunately it's a grass roots effort because the vaccine
companies don't want anyone to know how long they last because it will hit
them hard right in the pocketbook.

Data needs to be for a *specific* vaccine. Just because one vaccine is good
for 10 years does *not* mean another will be. There are a lot of variables
involved.

There is also the problem of 'how good is good enough' for immunity which a
lot of people don't seem to have a good handle on (I'm not sure myself what
'good enough' means). To illustrate this problem, remember that dogs are
individuals. This means that you aren't going to have one specific date
after which the vaccine is suddenly 'no good'. You're (likely) going to have
a gradual waning at different rates, dependent on a lot of different
variables. So we establish a cut off that says 'the vaccine is good if when
the animal is challenged with the virus he doesn't become ill or shed the
virus'.

Now lets imagine for a second that we collect all the data, and we find that
for 99.5% of dogs the vaccine is good for at least 3 years, for 95% of dogs,
the vaccine is good for 5 years, and for 90% of dogs the vaccine is good for
10 years (note, these numbers are pulled out of thin air). Where do we place
the cut off to say 'the vaccine lasts x years'? We could take the standard
approach taken in scientific literature and say that the 95% cut off is
'good enough', but that is going to be little comfort to the 1 in 20 dogs
that isn't protected if they happen to be exposed to rabies over the 2 years
they aren't protected (remember the consequences of being wrong is a death
sentence). *Heck, even if we put the cut off at 3 years, we're still putting
1 in 200 dogs at risk of rabies by *not* vaccinating (again these numbers
are pulled out of thin air. The real numbers may be better or worse).

How does this risk compare with the risk of vaccinating?

Obviously we want to choose the course of action that 'optimizes' the health
of the dog. So where do we put the cutoff?

I'm not saying I have answers, I'm saying its something we have to think
about when we look at any study that says 'x vaccine lasts y years'. We need
to know the consequences of being wrong on both sides of the fence.

Dale

Just wondering about things like Bordatella...it's kinds like a flu/
cold shot for dogs. Most kennels need you have it...but mine's been
boarded and still come home with a cold (and THAT was disgusting)

But if there's so many strains - why bother?

wrote:
On Jan 25, 9:01 pm, "Dale Atkin" wrote:
If you'd like I can ask my immunology prof as to the current thinking on
why some vaccines are given annually, and others at wider intervals
(whether its a characteristic of the virus, or if its a characteristic of
the vaccine, or if its a lack of data).
There is no lack of data and even more is coming when the Rabies Challenge
is complete. Unfortunately it's a grass roots effort because the vaccine
companies don't want anyone to know how long they last because it will hit
them hard right in the pocketbook.
Data needs to be for a *specific* vaccine. Just because one vaccine is good
for 10 years does *not* mean another will be. There are a lot of variables
involved.

There is also the problem of 'how good is good enough' for immunity which a
lot of people don't seem to have a good handle on (I'm not sure myself what
'good enough' means). To illustrate this problem, remember that dogs are
individuals. This means that you aren't going to have one specific date
after which the vaccine is suddenly 'no good'. You're (likely) going to have
a gradual waning at different rates, dependent on a lot of different
variables. So we establish a cut off that says 'the vaccine is good if when
the animal is challenged with the virus he doesn't become ill or shed the
virus'.

Now lets imagine for a second that we collect all the data, and we find that
for 99.5% of dogs the vaccine is good for at least 3 years, for 95% of dogs,
the vaccine is good for 5 years, and for 90% of dogs the vaccine is good for
10 years (note, these numbers are pulled out of thin air). Where do we place
the cut off to say 'the vaccine lasts x years'? We could take the standard
approach taken in scientific literature and say that the 95% cut off is
'good enough', but that is going to be little comfort to the 1 in 20 dogs
that isn't protected if they happen to be exposed to rabies over the 2 years
they aren't protected (remember the consequences of being wrong is a death
sentence). Heck, even if we put the cut off at 3 years, we're still putting
1 in 200 dogs at risk of rabies by *not* vaccinating (again these numbers
are pulled out of thin air. The real numbers may be better or worse).

How does this risk compare with the risk of vaccinating?

Obviously we want to choose the course of action that 'optimizes' the health
of the dog. So where do we put the cutoff?

I'm not saying I have answers, I'm saying its something we have to think
about when we look at any study that says 'x vaccine lasts y years'. We need
to know the consequences of being wrong on both sides of the fence.

Dale

Just wondering about things like Bordatella...it's kinds like a flu/
cold shot for dogs. Most kennels need you have it...but mine's been
boarded and still come home with a cold (and THAT was disgusting)

But if there's so many strains - why bother?


I just get someone to come to the house and take care of them when I go
away. It's a lot less stress on the dog which means their immune system
stays high. Kenneling is stressful for dogs and stress can get them sick.