My experience thus far is the best trainers refuse to produce books and
DVDs because books and DVDs are inferior to qualified in-person
training. However, that leaves those of us who don't have trainers
available in our area with nothing to go on but what IS being published.

Some here say it is unwise to get anything from Sullivan and Milan. I
don't think they are perfect, both do some things with which I disagree.
However, both push good basic points that inexperienced dog owners *need*
to learn: exercise, consistency, avoiding mindless repetition, not
allowing aggression to escalate, and so on.

It's *hard* to produce good training materials for novices. You are
speaking to a huge and diverse group you know little about, who all have
different dogs with different needs, who all come in with different
misconceptions about the process, through which they are going to filter
everything you say, while trying to reach different training goals.

If there's someone better out there producing affordable materials of
better quality for people who don't have access to trainers, I want to
know about it! However, I'm yet to see any such thing.

Do any of you out there know of quality training materials *FOR NOVICES*
that I haven't seen? I'd love to know about them.

--Susan

In article ,
Susan wrote:
My experience thus far is the best trainers refuse to produce books and
DVDs because books and DVDs are inferior to qualified in-person
training.

My experience has been that they don't have time or the
interest or, frankly, the charisma, but there are some
excellent training and behavior DVDs out there. I'm
particularly fond of Ian Dunbar's stuff. I like Jean
Donaldson but she really needs a crazy filter. There are
a lot of very, very good books but you're not going to find
them sorting through the mountains of stuff on amazon.com or
by asking the guy who posts with his hands down his pants
for help.

Some here say it is unwise to get anything from Sullivan and Milan.

I haven't seen anyone say that. I have seen people say it's
unwise to get the wrong things from them. I don't like the
fact that Milan frames everything around the question of
who's in charge - I think that leads to some really moronic
behavior on the part of less experienced dog owners and even
some very experienced dog owners (that meathead refugee from
AOL who apparently sees every behavior and training question
as the dog thinking it's in charge, for example).

Do any of you out there know of quality training materials *FOR NOVICES*
that I haven't seen? I'd love to know about them.

Go spend some time browsing dogwise.com, come back with
questions you might have. There's a lot of good stuff out
there. I like Burch and Bailey's "How Dogs Learn" as
foundational stuff. I don't believe that books that
basically lay out training flow charts are particularly
worthwhile - they can leave you up a creek if the dog does
something unexpected and I think they kind of discourage you
from really paying attention to the dog.

Also, I don't quite believe that there are no decent
trainers where you are. Might be true, probably isn't.
Dig a little.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis -

Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community

"Susan" wrote in message:

Do any of you out there know of quality training materials *FOR NOVICES*
that I haven't seen? I'd love to know about them.

This will get you started:
http://www.dogwise.com/Browse/SubCat...20Dog%20Owners

Patricia McConnell, Ian Dunbar, Pat Miller, Karen Pryor (I'm sure I'm
leaving out a bunch of people) ALL have really good, accessible books for
the novice dog owner. It does require a brain and basic reading
comprehension skills, but not much more.

Where do you live? Maybe someone knows someone that might be able to point
you to a good trainer.

Suja

In article ,
"Suja" wrote:


Patricia McConnell, Ian Dunbar, Pat Miller, Karen Pryor (I'm sure I'm
leaving out a bunch of people) ALL have really good, accessible books for
the novice dog owner. It does require a brain and basic reading
comprehension skills, but not much more.

I am not necessarily a fan of all of those people, but read them all
anyway! I get something out of every book I ever read.

For beginner dog owners, I still really like Carol Lea Benjamin's style,
humor and approach (yes, it's "balanced"). Specialty books on puppies,
adolescents and shelter dogs, I think her books are entertaining and
very readable, and that gets through to a lot of people pretty easily.

--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com

On Wed, 08 Apr 2009 16:50:55 -0400, Melinda Shore wrote:

In article , Susan
wrote:
My experience thus far is the best trainers refuse to produce books and
DVDs because books and DVDs are inferior to qualified in-person
training.

My experience has been that they don't have time or the interest or,
frankly, the charisma, but there are some excellent training and
behavior DVDs out there. I'm particularly fond of Ian Dunbar's stuff.

I'll check it out, thank you.

I like Jean Donaldson but she really needs a crazy filter.

Yeah, the stuff that needs filtering isn't what I'm looking for at the
moment. *I* may have a decent crazy filter, but the people I'm working
with at the moment do not.

There are a lot of very, very good books but you're not going to find
them sorting through the mountains of stuff on amazon.com
snip

That's for sure... believe me, I've tried.

Some here say it is unwise to get anything from Sullivan and Milan.

I haven't seen anyone say that.

Somewhere in the thread (sorry, I can't find it now) on the mastiff and
beagle, there were one or two comments that called them "dangerous" and
"media hacks"... those are the remarks I was characterizing.

I just try not to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

snip
Do any of you out there know of quality training materials *FOR NOVICES*
that I haven't seen? I'd love to know about them.

Go spend some time browsing dogwise.com, come back with questions you
might have.

Ahh, I had not heard of dogwise, thank you.

There's a lot of good stuff out there. I like Burch and Bailey's "How
Dogs Learn" as foundational stuff.

Added to my "to look at" list.

I don't believe that
books that basically lay out training flow charts are particularly
worthwhile - they can leave you up a creek if the dog does something
unexpected and I think they kind of discourage you from really paying
attention to the dog.

Agreed.

Also, I don't quite believe that there are no decent trainers where you
are. Might be true, probably isn't. Dig a little.

Exactly how many dog trainers do you think a community of 2000 people can
support? I'm amazed that between us and the neighboring town there are
two.

There are trainers further out, but for most people, an hour and a half
drive each way just isn't practical. This is why I'm hoping the dobe
breeder we know decides to offer classes. She's only about a half-hour
out of town, which isn't too bad in the grand scheme of things.

--Susan

On Wed, 08 Apr 2009 18:15:45 -0400, Suja wrote:
snip
Where do you live? Maybe someone knows someone that might be able to
point you to a good trainer.

Suja

In a little town south of Chicago. Note that most here (myself included)
will not travel into Chicago or the surrounding areas because of the
violent crime rates.

--Susan

On Wed, 08 Apr 2009 18:19:29 -0400, Janet Boss wrote:

I am not necessarily a fan of all of those people, but read them all
anyway! I get something out of every book I ever read.

That's pretty much my approach. What I wish I had was a book or DVD I
could hand to the clue-impaired and say "do it this way". For example,
the family of the rottie I mentioned earlier -- they really want to be
good dog owners, I think, but they have a completely insane picture of
what that entails.

For beginner dog owners, I still really like Carol Lea Benjamin's style,
humor and approach (yes, it's "balanced"). Specialty books on puppies,
adolescents and shelter dogs, I think her books are entertaining and
very readable, and that gets through to a lot of people pretty easily.

Added to my list of things to check out.

--Susan

"elegy" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 8 Apr 2009 18:15:45 -0400, "Suja" wrote:


"Susan" wrote in message:

Do any of you out there know of quality training materials *FOR
NOVICES*
that I haven't seen? I'd love to know about them.

This will get you started:
http://www.dogwise.com/Browse/SubCat...20Dog%20Owners

Patricia McConnell, Ian Dunbar, Pat Miller, Karen Pryor (I'm sure I'm
leaving out a bunch of people) ALL have really good, accessible books for
the novice dog owner. It does require a brain and basic reading
comprehension skills, but not much more.

i think pamela dennison's complete idiot's guide to positive dog
training is a nice, comprehensive basic intro book.

I'll second the motion. She probably had me in mind when she came up with
that title!

I just finished reading it, along with Victoria Stilwell's nicely
illustrated but less substantial "It's Me or the Dog", and the video and
book by Cesar Millan. I was pleasantly surprised by the common sense
elements of the "Celebrity Edition" DVD, but of course what's not to like
(for a guy, at least), when it starts out with Denise Richardson ... Did
she even have dogs?

Really, I think it might be good for newbies, as it stresses the importance
of giving your dogs boundaries, proper exercise, and affection, but always
remembering that they are animals first, dogs second, and finally the
individual entity that we choose to call by name. It is, of course, slickly
done, and edited to make the process look easy and elevating Cesar to the
level of a miracle worker, but the very fact that it is highly entertaining
might appeal to those who would quickly get bored with traditional step by
step dog training materials.

Paul and Muttley

On Apr 8, 5:40�pm, Susan wrote:
On Wed, 08 Apr 2009 18:19:29 -0400, Janet Boss wrote:

I am not necessarily a fan of all of those people, but read them all
anyway! �I get something out of every book I ever read.

That's pretty much my approach. �What I wish I had was a book or DVD I
could hand to the clue-impaired and say "do it this way". �For example,
the family of the rottie I mentioned earlier -- they really want to be
good dog owners, I think, but they have a completely insane picture of
what that entails.

For beginner dog owners, I still really like Carol Lea Benjamin's style,
humor and approach (yes, it's "balanced"). �Specialty books on puppies,
adolescents and shelter dogs, I think her books are entertaining and
very readable, and that gets through to a lot of people pretty easily.

Added to my list of things to check out.

--Susan

If you like Cesar Millan and Don Sullivan, you'll probably like Carol
Lea Benjamin too. I do enjoy her mysteries. Sandy in OK

On Apr 8, 5:31�pm, Susan wrote:
On Wed, 08 Apr 2009 16:50:55 -0400, Melinda Shore wrote:
In article , Susan
wrote:
My experience thus far is the best trainers refuse to produce books and
DVDs because books and DVDs are inferior to qualified in-person
training.

My experience has been that they don't have time or the interest or,
frankly, the charisma, but there are some excellent training and
behavior DVDs out there. �I'm particularly fond of Ian Dunbar's stuff.

I'll check it out, thank you.

I like Jean Donaldson but she really needs a crazy filter.

Yeah, the stuff that needs filtering isn't what I'm looking for at the
moment. �*I* may have a decent crazy filter, but the people I'm working
with at the moment do not.

There are a lot of very, very good books but you're not going to find
them sorting through the mountains of stuff on amazon.com

snip

That's for sure... believe me, I've tried.

Some here say it is unwise to get anything from Sullivan and Milan.

I haven't seen anyone say that.

Somewhere in the thread (sorry, I can't find it now) on the mastiff and
beagle, there were one or two comments that called them "dangerous" and
"media hacks"... those are the remarks I was characterizing.

I just try not to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

snip

Do any of you out there know of quality training materials *FOR NOVICES*
that I haven't seen? �I'd love to know about them.

Go spend some time browsing dogwise.com, come back with questions you
might have.

Ahh, I had not heard of dogwise, thank you.

There's a lot of good stuff out there. �I like Burch and Bailey's "How
Dogs Learn" as foundational stuff.

Added to my "to look at" list.

I don't believe that
books that basically lay out training flow charts are particularly
worthwhile - they can leave you up a creek if the dog does something
unexpected and I think they kind of discourage you from really paying
attention to the dog.

Agreed.

Also, I don't quite believe that there are no decent trainers where you
are. �Might be true, probably isn't. Dig a little.

Exactly how many dog trainers do you think a community of 2000 people can
support? �I'm amazed that between us and the neighboring town there are
two.

There are trainers further out, but for most people, an hour and a half
drive each way just isn't practical. �This is why I'm hoping the dobe
breeder we know decides to offer classes. �She's only about a half-hour
out of town, which isn't too bad in the grand scheme of things.

--Susan

For non-clicker material on understanding dogs, I rather like Suzanne
Clothier's short manuals - booklets really. And Ian Dunbar has a good
set of booklets too. My current favorite is Control Unleashed, but I'm
not sure I'd call it a beginner book.