Dale Atkin wrote:
chardonnay
If you think about it, many animals that do live on grass and such
have several stomachs because it needs a lot more processing than
meat does.

Are you claiming that monogastrics can't be vegetarian and healthy?

Nope. However, I do think that the length of a digestive system is
related to what they eat. Short for meat, longer for omnivores, even
longer for plant eaters.

And I also know that it takes more effort to get a balanced diet when we
as omnivores decide to go straight veggies. It makes sense that
carnivores would be even harder to manage vegetarianism in a healthy way.

It's just not a natural diet.

That's a pretty bold statement if you are. (I'm assuming you realize
humans are monogastrics).

Dale

Phyrie wrote:


The easy answer is, "No, dogs are not vegetarians." Which they aren't. But
I know a couple of dogs who were fed a vegetarian kibble and seem to do OK.
One of them is dead now (my sister's boxer), but the other one I know of
that's still living has terrible teeth, but he's a Shih Tzu, so he may have
bad teeth anyway. But he seems to be doing alright.

I have to wonder how your guests know what kind of food you're feeding your
dog? Do you announce it as they come in? "Welcome to our vegan house (for
religious reasons) but, by the way, the dog eats chicken in his kibble, so
don't let him lick you, or you're damned." How does this come up in
conversation? What business is it of anyone what you feed your dog?

Dogs don't have religion. They are animals. So are you, but I won't get
into that. A dog doesn't care what you think your chosen invisible ghost
has to say about what people eat. Why any god would give a rat's ass about
what anyone eats I can't imagine, but then again, there's the whole "not
getting into it" thing again. Dogs care even less. All they want is to be
fed, loved and housed, almost always in that order. Feed your dog a good,
high quality kibble, and tell the nosy M-I-L it's kosher, or veggie, or
hallowed or whatever you need to. It's none of her damn business, but if it
keeps peace in the family, whatever. All kibble looks the same, if it's
high quality.

Dogs aren't vegetarians.

Thanks for the input. I accept and respect your lack of religious
conviction. However, my faith has some "rules" and one of them is not
to keep dead animals in the house. Yes, I'm sure that seem stupid and
strange to you. That's ok with me. I'm not asking you to understand
or believe it, but if you don't mind it would be nice if you could
answer without insulting my faith or my family.

Thanks!

Note on the "Dogs aren't vegetarians" comment... I'm not sure if
you've visited many countries in Asia, but you might be surprised to
find that there are thousands upon thousands of dogs (both street dogs
and pets) living on primarily vegetarian diets in many countries. As
far as I know, dogs are mostly scavengers. This means they eat what is
available to them. If meat is not available, they will survive on veg
food. In countries like India, most of what they find is vegetarian.
There's certainly no shortage of street dogs in India, so I would guess
they're doing ok without all the meat. But again, I am looking for
actual controlled studies so I can learn more and make an informed
decision.

Does anyone have links to studies regarding this? Any vets out there
want to weigh in?

Interesting fact- Giant Pandas are taxonomically carnivores, but live
completely on bamboo. Evolution can do strange things!

-Jassi

Melinda Shore wrote:

I knew someone who put his dog on a home-concocted
vegetarian diet (i.e. not a commercial one) and the dog lost
its eyesight. Peter (like chard) wasn't paying attention to
the nutritional content of the food. So, I tend to be wary.

That said, I do not have first-hand experience with
commercial vegetarian diets. I do have first-hand
experience with keeping dairy and meats separate, though.
Can you compromise with your housemates by finding a way to
keep the kibble stored separately in a sealed container?

Thanks Melinda. I am currently keeping the kibble in a sealed
container... that's been fine for years, but my husband's family (coming
from India to stay with us) is very strict and old-school in their
thinking, so I'm looking at alternatives.

Obviously my dog's health is also important to me, so I don't want to
going into this blind.

Thanks!

-Jasi

In article ,
Jasi wrote:
Note on the "Dogs aren't vegetarians" comment... I'm not sure if
you've visited many countries in Asia, but you might be surprised to
find that there are thousands upon thousands of dogs (both street dogs
and pets) living on primarily vegetarian diets in many countries.

I'm not sure that means much. My impression from the dogs
I've seen in SE Asia is that they're not healthy and they're
rather short-lived.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis -

Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community

In article ,
Jasi wrote:
Thanks Melinda. I am currently keeping the kibble in a sealed
container... that's been fine for years, but my husband's family (coming
from India to stay with us) is very strict and old-school in their
thinking, so I'm looking at alternatives.

Okay, yes - I'm *very* familiar with that situation. What
about keeping the kibble in a sealed container outside the
house and feeding either outside or in a room other than the
kitchen? Just because the dog lives inside doesn't mean
that it has to do everything inside, as we know (hah!). The
problem with feeding outside is that it tends to attract
unwanted animals, so I'd tend to prefer to feed in another
room, like the basement or a garage, and then bring the dog
back into the main part of the house after eating.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis -

Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community

"Jasi" wrote in message
...

Thanks for the input. I accept and respect your lack of religious
conviction. However, my faith has some "rules" and one of them is not to
keep dead animals in the house. Yes, I'm sure that seem stupid and
strange to you. That's ok with me. I'm not asking you to understand or
believe it, but if you don't mind it would be nice if you could answer
without insulting my faith or my family.

I tried not to insult, but I can see that I did. I do have a hard time with
religions that don't allow their faithful any freedom of mind. I have
difficulty understanding why these "rules" are interpreted the way they are,
and think they leave lots of room open for different interpretations,
depending on who's preaching it, or even simply reading it out of a book on
their own. Literal interpretations of parables and fables written thousands
of years ago, in a totally different world, seem to me, yes, stupid and
ignorant. I also recognize that, as a totally unreligious person, I have a
hard time understanding, and tolerating, blind faith. It's a fault, I
suppose, but blind faith to me seems the worse fault.

My husband works with a lot of Jehovah's Witnesses. They have a rule about
blood transfusions. They say that their god said, "Thou shall not take of
another man's blood" so they have outlawed any surgical procedures that
might need blood products. My husband asked one of them one day, "Don't you
think maybe the god meant don't SPILL another man's blood, as in, don't harm
or kill anyone? How could a book who-knows-how-old even comprehend blood
transfusions, let alone forbid them!?" The man looked confused, and said he
would have to ask his elder about it. He asked, and the elder said, "We
don't ask questions. We do what we're told." And that was the end of it.
Sheer idiocy, to me.

My sister-in-law, a born-again Mormon explained the existence of dinosaurs
once to my daughter: "God made the earth, whole and complete, like forming
a dough ball between his hands from the fabric of the universe, and he put
all the dinosaur bones under the earth for us to dig up." She couldn't
explain why her god would want to do that, and she just blew off carbon
dating as wrong. She also couldn't explain where the universe came from in
the first place, as it's not in her book. If it's not written in the
"book", it didn't happen. And if it's IN the "book" it did happen. Period.

But that wasn't my point. My point was, your dog is not religious. He
shouldn't be held to your religion's standards. If you don't want to eat
the flesh of animals, that's fine. But to have dead animals in the house?
You do know that you probably, right now, have hundreds, if not thousands,
of dead things in the house right now. Mice, bugs, birds... They all get
in and live, and die, in homes. I am NOT trying to upset you, but to make
you see that perhaps there is some wiggle room in the interpretation of
"dead animals".

Maybe if you could explain your religion's aversion to "dead animals", there
might a compromise that can achieved that won't gross out you or your mother
in law. BTW, you brought her up, not me.
--
Phyrie
Kiba the Cav's Pics:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/phyrie/...758930/detail/

Dale Atkin wrote:
chardonnay
If you think about it, many animals that do live on grass and such
have several stomachs because it needs a lot more processing than
meat does.

Are you claiming that monogastrics can't be vegetarian and healthy?
That's a pretty bold statement if you are. (I'm assuming you realize
humans are monogastrics).

Seriously. That's a stretch. And not a very
smart one.

On Sun, 19 Apr 2009 19:41:44 -0700, "Phyrie"
wrote:


"Jasi" wrote in message
...

Thanks for the input. I accept and respect your lack of religious
conviction. However, my faith has some "rules" and one of them is not to
keep dead animals in the house. Yes, I'm sure that seem stupid and
strange to you. That's ok with me. I'm not asking you to understand or
believe it, but if you don't mind it would be nice if you could answer
without insulting my faith or my family.

I tried not to insult,

Not very hard, you didn't. If you have a hard time with religious
beliefs that don't make sense to you, you might try just keeping
silent about them.

Jasi wrote:
Phyrie wrote:


The easy answer is, "No, dogs are not vegetarians." Which they
aren't. But I know a couple of dogs who were fed a vegetarian kibble
and seem to do OK. One of them is dead now (my sister's boxer), but
the other one I know of that's still living has terrible teeth, but
he's a Shih Tzu, so he may have bad teeth anyway. But he seems to be
doing alright.

I have to wonder how your guests know what kind of food you're feeding
your dog? Do you announce it as they come in? "Welcome to our vegan
house (for religious reasons) but, by the way, the dog eats chicken in
his kibble, so don't let him lick you, or you're damned." How does
this come up in conversation? What business is it of anyone what you
feed your dog?

Dogs don't have religion. They are animals. So are you, but I won't
get into that. A dog doesn't care what you think your chosen
invisible ghost has to say about what people eat. Why any god would
give a rat's ass about what anyone eats I can't imagine, but then
again, there's the whole "not getting into it" thing again. Dogs care
even less. All they want is to be fed, loved and housed, almost
always in that order. Feed your dog a good, high quality kibble, and
tell the nosy M-I-L it's kosher, or veggie, or hallowed or whatever
you need to. It's none of her damn business, but if it keeps peace in
the family, whatever. All kibble looks the same, if it's high quality.

Dogs aren't vegetarians.

Thanks for the input. I accept and respect your lack of religious
conviction. However, my faith has some "rules" and one of them is not
to keep dead animals in the house. Yes, I'm sure that seem stupid and
strange to you. That's ok with me. I'm not asking you to understand
or believe it, but if you don't mind it would be nice if you could
answer without insulting my faith or my family.

I think that's a completely fair thing to ask.

I also think it might have helped us to
understand what the parameters were if you
had said this part sooner. It wasn't
necessary for the original question, of
course, but in order to try and understand,
its also a good thing if the person you are
trying to understand is giving an indication
that they are trying to HELP you understand.

Asking us for help, but treating most of the
context as none of our business may get you
answers, but it may also get you treated more
abruptly than you'd like.

But I know I do appreciate the above context.
It helps me understand a little bit better.

Thanks!

Note on the "Dogs aren't vegetarians" comment... I'm not sure if
you've visited many countries in Asia, but you might be surprised to
find that there are thousands upon thousands of dogs (both street dogs
and pets) living on primarily vegetarian diets in many countries. As
far as I know, dogs are mostly scavengers.


No. No they're most certainly not.

All starving things will behave, to some
degree or another, *like* a scavenger. But
that's not at all the same thing as BEING a
scavenger. They are classified as carnivores.
There is a bit of squidge room in that they
are what is called "opportunistic
carnivores", but the word "carnivore" is
really prominent.

Can dogs survive on a vegetarian diet? Sure
they can. I've been a vegetarian for almost
25 years, and I would never turn my dog into
a carnivore, but then I don't have religious
rules I follow (at all, actually :-)

I would probably spend an inordinate amount
of energy trying to find a way to keep my dog
on a carnivore diet without having to bring
the food into my home, whether it be keeping
it in a lined metal storage container right
outside the door, or in the garage (I live in
a high rise apartment, so neither of those
would work for me, but I'm just tossing ideas
out there).

If there was NO way in the world I could
figure out how to do that, I would look at
commercially prepared vegetarian diets. For
me, the risk of missing vital nutrients by
trying to make my own vegetarian diet would
be too great a risk.

This means they eat what is
available to them.

Any starving being does. But that doesn't
mean they're eating things they could survive
on long term....or that their organs aren't
shutting down as a result of the malnutrition.

If meat is not available, they will survive on veg
food. In countries like India, most of what they find is vegetarian.
There's certainly no shortage of street dogs in India, so I would guess
they're doing ok without all the meat.

I
d be really careful jumping on that
assumption. As one who has worked with rescue
and spay neuter efforts in a few countries
with a lot of street dogs, all that means is
that there aren't that many people spaying or
neutering. It means squat in terms of the
long term survivability of a diet like that.
To have a lot of street dogs, the dogs only
have to live until they're 2 or 3 to have had
quite a few litters. They can die awfully
young from malnutrition and still have an
impressive population growth.

But again, I am looking for
actual controlled studies so I can learn more and make an informed
decision.

I'm really really glad about this. I may
disagree with what you are wanting to do, but
I appreciate that you want to do it in an
educated and healthy (as healthy as possible)
fashion.

Does anyone have links to studies regarding this? Any vets out there
want to weigh in?

Interesting fact- Giant Pandas are taxonomically carnivores, but live
completely on bamboo. Evolution can do strange things!

Yes it can. But it hasn't yet done that with
dogs. So please be careful in trying to make
that parallel.

Tara

Melinda Shore wrote:
In article ,
Jasi wrote:
Thanks Melinda. I am currently keeping the kibble in a sealed
container... that's been fine for years, but my husband's family (coming
from India to stay with us) is very strict and old-school in their
thinking, so I'm looking at alternatives.

Okay, yes - I'm *very* familiar with that situation. What
about keeping the kibble in a sealed container outside the
house and feeding either outside or in a room other than the
kitchen? Just because the dog lives inside doesn't mean
that it has to do everything inside, as we know (hah!). The
problem with feeding outside is that it tends to attract
unwanted animals, so I'd tend to prefer to feed in another
room, like the basement or a garage, and then bring the dog
back into the main part of the house after eating.

Exactly what I was thinking.

Only it took me around 5 pages to say it.

I need a snickers bar.