Here's a neat course I ran with Friday last weekend. We were
just over 28 seconds but other younger dogs would have been
faster if they hadn't faulted.

How would y'all have handled it? 10-11-12 is where efficiency
can probably make up some time. It was pretty much the same on
the ground as it was on paper.

http://rocky-dog.com/Misc/Jumpers.jpg

--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

Matt wrote
:

How would y'all have handled it? 10-11-12 is where efficiency
can probably make up some time. It was pretty much the same on
the ground as it was on paper.

I'd need to actually walk it to be sure, but based on the course map I'd
push the dog away from me after 9, (diagonally upwards on the course
diagram), then turn the dog BEFORE the jump, rather than after - that would
result in #10 being jumped at an angle rather than straight as depicted.
That allows #11 to be jumped the same way, which will flatten the line all
the way through the serpentine. Any yardage lost by the curve upwards and
then down above 9 would be *more* than made up by the flatter line through
10-11-12; or to put it another way, I'd end up with only one sharp turn
rather than two. (I'd also be far less likely to have my dog see, and lock
onto, the backside of #4 as s/he cleared #10.)

I'd also angle my dogs over #s 3 & 4, btw - IMO running 2-3-4 in a straight
line, as shown, makes no sense both in terms of efficiency and in terms of
impact on the dog's body. With a large or long-strided dog, I'd push
outwards so that the dog took # 3 at an outwards angle, keep that angle
until midway, then turn the dog back just before #4 so that 4 is taken
angled inwards - IOW so the dog lands already partially turned towards #5.
With a small dog, I might hold the outward push until landing after 3.
(Also, again, this manuever reduces the chances of an off-course, since the
dog won't be landing headed straight at #11).

And I'd probably try to do something similar with 15 -19 - push the dog out
after 15, sharper angle over 16, which allows a flatter line (and less
stress on the dog's body) from 17-18 and from 18-19.
If there wasn't enough room to do it between 15-16, I'd probably angle the
dog AWAY from me over 16 and make a wider turn between 16-17; again, the
yardage lost there would be made up by yardage saved (and impact on the
dog's body reduced) on 17-18-19.

I'll nearly always take the route of turning my dog before a jump so that
s/he lands headed in the direction needed rather than turning them after
landing. I've also been blessed with dogs who were very very good at taking
jumps at an angle. G (Dunno if you've ever looked at the vids I have up
on YouTube, but there are a couple of runs on there where you can see me
angling my dogs like that, especially in the older Elite Jumpers vid with
all threedogs. It's why I took first with both Bren and Morag despite
neither of them being speed demons.)

"sionnach" said in
rec.pets.dogs.activities:

I'd need to actually walk it to be sure, but based on the
course map I'd push the dog away from me after 9,
(diagonally upwards on the course diagram), then turn the
dog BEFORE the jump, rather than after - that would result
in #10 being jumped at an angle rather than straight as
depicted. That allows #11 to be jumped the same way, which
will flatten the line all the way through the serpentine.

That's what a lot of people did, except it wasn't necessary to
push the dog after the #9 tire because the faster dogs already
jump long with a tire, especially after coming from a spread.

I ran right through (able to get ahead of Friday because I'd
earlier sent him into the #7 tunnel from a distance) and front
crossed between 10 and 11, did a pull through to 12. That's
the part of the course I'd like to try again - I'd walked it
much the way you described, but the push-through to handle 11
to 12 didn't feel comfortable when walking and I thought that
I might get a refusal on 12. It probably would have saved me
a second or so, though, if I could have pulled it off. Friday
was up early, though, and the first truly fast dog.

The advantage of the way I did it (and I think I was the only
one), was that it set me up for a really straight line from 12
to the #13 tunnel, so I was able to send ahead really early to
it.

Any yardage lost by the curve upwards and then down above 9
would be *more* than made up by the flatter line through
10-11-12; or to put it another way, I'd end up with only
one sharp turn rather than two. (I'd also be far less
likely to have my dog see, and lock onto, the backside of
#4 as s/he cleared #10.)

Yup.

I'd also angle my dogs over #s 3 & 4, btw - IMO running
2-3-4 in a straight line, as shown, makes no sense both in
terms of efficiency and in terms of impact on the dog's
body.

I did those in a straight line, sending to #4 while hanging,
wrapping 4 and setting up a straight line through 5-6-7. Most
handlers led off quite a way and front crossed after #4 - that
was pretty reliable but resulted in a wide turn through 4-5
and then they had to work to get #6. That section is why I
think we had the fastest overall time.

With a large or long-strided dog, I'd push outwards
so that the dog took # 3 at an outwards angle, keep that
angle until midway, then turn the dog back just before #4
so that 4 is taken angled inwards - IOW so the dog lands
already partially turned towards #5. With a small dog, I
might hold the outward push until landing after 3. (Also,
again, this manuever reduces the chances of an off-course,
since the dog won't be landing headed straight at #11).

And I'd probably try to do something similar with 15 -19 -
push the dog out after 15, sharper angle over 16, which
allows a flatter line (and less stress on the dog's body)
from 17-18 and from 18-19.
If there wasn't enough room to do it between 15-16, I'd
probably angle the
dog AWAY from me over 16 and make a wider turn between
16-17; again, the yardage lost there would be made up by
yardage saved (and impact on the dog's body reduced) on
17-18-19.

I did 16-17 from a distance, setting up for a very sharp rear
cross on #18 - Friday wrapped the #18 wing really tightly. We
do a lot of rear crosses, so Friday does his lead change
early, no stress in landing. Most handlers did a front before
18 - again resulting in wide turns.

I'll nearly always take the route of turning my dog
before a jump so that
s/he lands headed in the direction needed rather than
turning them after landing. I've also been blessed with
dogs who were very very good at taking jumps at an angle.

Friday also slices very well and, as I said above, if he
understands me, he lead changes early so that I don't need to
turn him before. And all my friends are very quick to tell
each other when we're messing up our dogs! Heh.

G (Dunno if you've ever looked at the vids I have up on
YouTube, but there are a couple of runs on there where you
can see me angling my dogs like that, especially in the
older Elite Jumpers vid with all threedogs. It's why I took
first with both Bren and Morag despite neither of them
being speed demons.)

Friday doesn't push well (he'll do it, but that's when the
barking starts), so our vee-sets have to be more like what I
described above between 4 and 5.

--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

Rocky wrote:



http://rocky-dog.com/Misc/Jumpers.jpg

It's always hard for me to work with courses that already have lines
drawn all over them, but here goes.

First, what Sarah said about setting lines before jumps and slicing. In
this case, that starts with decelerating before 4 to pull the dog to me.
A front cross between 4 and 5 would almost certainly result in a huge
waste of energy because the dog is going to be rocketing down that line
and to beat the dog the handler will have to do the same. It's better to
push out a bit then decelerate and turn to get a tigher wrap to 5. I'd
then probably just pull the dog in to 5 and push back out to six. I'd be
afraid if I tried to cross and ended up with the dog on my right over 6
I'd pull to the wrong tunnel entrance.

Again agreeing with Sarah, after the tire I'd push out toward the top of
the map then pull back in a V set to have the dog slice 10 and be more
efficient to 11 than the map shows. Since I'd be staying on the inside,
I should be able to get in position to simply push my dog back out to 12
then run like hell for the tunnel. The only place I might be tempted to
front cross on the course would be between 17 and 18. I can send the dog
to 16 and start moving laterally which would pull the dog to 17. I'd
need to have my cross completed as the dog came over 17 then stand my
ground to get a really tight wrap from 18 to the chute and out.

Looks like a fun course.

"Rocky" wrote in message
...
Here's a neat course I ran with Friday last weekend. We were
just over 28 seconds but other younger dogs would have been
faster if they hadn't faulted.

How would y'all have handled it? 10-11-12 is where efficiency
can probably make up some time. It was pretty much the same on
the ground as it was on paper.

http://rocky-dog.com/Misc/Jumpers.jpg

For Spenser -
Start dog on left 1-4.
FC far side of 4 to put dog on right until 10.
I would FC after 10 to put dog on left again.
Push out to 11, bring back to 12 and RC as he went in the 13 tunnel.
When he came out, I'd be on the opposite side of 14 to FC and put him back
on left.
RC between 15 & 16, close to 15.
Dog on right to 18.
RC 18 to pull him to 19.

For Sassy -
Dh said he would run her much the same EXCEPT
He would FC after 4 but do it mid-way between 4 & 5.
He would keep her on the right at 10 but start backing up.
Pull her over 11, He would back up (sort of a reset) and keep her on the
right to 13.

So, the 10-11-12 would have been different for us.
Sassy loves jumpers courses and would be moving out away from him on all the
outward spirals.
Spenser hates jumpers courses. He gets bored - although two tunnels on this
course would help. I do FC when possible with him to keep him moving -
works like a slingshot sometimes. Otherwise, he's a RC dog.

Judy

On Apr 21, 11:10*am, Rocky wrote:
Here's a neat course I ran with Friday last weekend. *We were
just over 28 seconds but other younger dogs would have been
faster if they hadn't faulted.

How would y'all have handled it? *10-11-12 is where efficiency
can probably make up some time. *It was pretty much the same on
the ground as it was on paper.

http://rocky-dog.com/Misc/Jumpers.jpg

--
--Matt. *Rocky's a Dog.

What a fun jumpers course! The serpentine (10,11,12) I would have sent
out to 10 from 9 while I moved laterally towards 11 and gotten ahead
of 11 and simply brought my dog over 11 with my right hand.
Serpentines are my favorite and whenever possible I get ahead of my
dog, which is not hard to do if you send and move laterally. By
lateral I mean you still face your shoulders towards #10, but you move
towards #11. I want my dogs taking a straight a line as possible
through 10,11, 12, not loopy. If my cues are correct they would take
it in a fairly straight line.

Fo rmy young BC the hardest part would be from 1 to 5, coming down
that line of jumps and shortening up to make that turn to five would
be hard, he'd be flying down that line! I'd have to see the angles in
person, but I'd probably lead out almost to #4. With my more
experienced dogs I'd lead out to the #2 jump. Either way I'd front
cross between 4 & 5, my front would be as close to #5 as possible,
being carfeul to pull after 5, that tunnel is starting them in the
face!

Then I'd rear cross between 17 & 18 with my fast dog & my medium speed
dogs I'd probably front cross there.

Lauralyn
Raw fed agility dogs
Shylo, Cheyenne, Lakota, Apache

Robin Nuttall said in
rec.pets.dogs.activities:

It's always hard for me to work with courses that already
have lines drawn all over them, but here goes.

You and I.

First, what Sarah said about setting lines before jumps and
slicing. In this case, that starts with decelerating before
4 to pull the dog to me.

That's how we did it - I hung out south of 5 while I sent
Friday over 4 so I'd have a straight line for 6-7.

A front cross between 4 and 5 would almost certainly
result in a huge
waste of energy because the dog is going to be rocketing
down that line and to beat the dog the handler will have to
do the same. It's better to push out a bit then decelerate
and turn to get a tigher wrap to 5. I'd then probably just
pull the dog in to 5 and push back out to six. I'd be
afraid if I tried to cross and ended up with the dog on my
right over 6 I'd pull to the wrong tunnel entrance.

Almost always, Friday is ahead of me. I rear-crossed 6, but
I'd already sent him to the tunnel before 6 and our line
didn't bring the other tunnel entrance into the equation.

This is the point I screwed up (as in losing a second or so).
I didn't trust Friday enough to send him to tunnel 7 from back
of jump 6, so I supported him through the potential off-course
you mentioned.

When I say "I screwed up", it means that Friday barked at me.

Again agreeing with Sarah, after the tire I'd push out
toward the top of the map then pull back in a V set to have
the dog slice 10 and be more efficient to 11 than the map
shows.

Yup, and that's the spot I want to try again. As I said to
Sarah, long-jumping dogs jump extra long out of a tire,
especially after a speed section. Friday, for example, landed
in a position where he could have easily sliced 10 into a
tight line to 11, but I'd already committed to my inefficient
line.

Since I'd be staying on the inside, I should be able
to get in position to simply push my dog back out to 12
then run like hell for the tunnel. The only place I might
be tempted to front cross on the course would be between 17
and 18. I can send the dog to 16 and start moving laterally
which would pull the dog to 17. I'd need to have my cross
completed as the dog came over 17 then stand my ground to
get a really tight wrap from 18 to the chute and out.

As I mentioned to Sarah, my rear on 18 worked really well
(plus I rolled my ankle at a trial 2 weeks ago, and it hurts,
so I'm *really* avoiding front crosses).

Looks like a fun course.

It was.

--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

"Judy" said in
rec.pets.dogs.activities:

For Spenser -
Start dog on left 1-4.
FC far side of 4 to put dog on right until 10.
I would FC after 10 to put dog on left again.
Push out to 11, bring back to 12 and RC as he went in the
13 tunnel.

Heh - you'd have been the only one to have handled 10-11-12
from the left (other than me). Apparently, my 11-12 wasn't
pretty, but it worked and we ended up the fastest. The dummy
jump next to tunnel 13 made many of us play it safe.

When he came out, I'd be on the opposite side of
14 to FC and put him back on left.

Why? As a set-up to your rear before 16 and to avoid a
potential off-course? That sounds good.

RC between 15 & 16, close to 15.

That's interesting. When I design courses, I'd never think of
a mini doing a rear there, especially close to 15.

Dog on right to 18.
RC 18 to pull him to 19.

You and me and only a couple of others. It worked really
well.

For Sassy -
Dh said he would run her much the same EXCEPT
He would FC after 4 but do it mid-way between 4 & 5.

That's where I would have done a front cross, too. In fact,
until the course was on the ground, I was considering a lead
out pivot from there.

He would keep her on the right at 10 but start backing up.
Pull her over 11, He would back up (sort of a reset) and
keep her on the right to 13.

That's the way most handlers did it. In retrospect, so would
I.

So, the 10-11-12 would have been different for us.
Sassy loves jumpers courses and would be moving out away
from him on all the outward spirals.
Spenser hates jumpers courses. He gets bored - although
two tunnels on this course would help. I do FC when
possible with him to keep him moving - works like a
slingshot sometimes. Otherwise, he's a RC dog.

Thank you.

--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

"Rocky" wrote in message
...
"Judy" said in
rec.pets.dogs.activities:

For Spenser -
Push out to 11, bring back to 12 and RC as he went in the
13 tunnel.

Heh - you'd have been the only one to have handled 10-11-12
from the left (other than me). Apparently, my 11-12 wasn't
pretty, but it worked and we ended up the fastest. The dummy
jump next to tunnel 13 made many of us play it safe.

I didn't even notice the dummy jump. Neither would have Spenser. There was
a tunnel there. If the tunnel had been the off course, THAT I would have
noticed. That late in the course, it wouldn't have been a big problem but
the same situation just starting a course would have potentially sucked him
into the tunnel.

When he came out, I'd be on the opposite side of
14 to FC and put him back on left.

Why? As a set-up to your rear before 16 and to avoid a
potential off-course? That sounds good.

For Spenser, the FC call over the 14 jump would have speeded him up when he
came out of the tunnel. And then RC between 15 & 16 would have pulled him
tighter in his turn over 16.

RC between 15 & 16, close to 15.

That's interesting. When I design courses, I'd never think of
a mini doing a rear there, especially close to 15.

That late in the course, Spenser will be working fairly close to me. With
even the slight angle that 16 has, I'd be concerned about getting boxed
trying to RC too close to 16. So I'd probably plan it for about a third of
the way between.

Sassy would still be flying - especially on what looks like a straight line
of jumps to her. She would have come out of the tunnel boiling and speed up
from there. DH would have RC shortly after 15 because Sassy would already
be over 16 at that point. Hoping that it would pull her over to 17.

Dog on right to 18.
RC 18 to pull him to 19.

You and me and only a couple of others. It worked really
well.

Really? Because THAT one seemed obvious to me.

For Sassy -
Dh said he would run her much the same EXCEPT
He would FC after 4 but do it mid-way between 4 & 5.

That's where I would have done a front cross, too. In fact,
until the course was on the ground, I was considering a lead
out pivot from there.

Both of our dogs have great start line stays. But we rarely do them. We
find that drop and run works the best - they have speed right from their
first steps.

The course has to be impossible to use a running start before I'll consider
one with Spenser. He doesn't like to play catch up. Sassy LOVES to race
with you. She hates it when you are too far ahead of her so a four jump
lead-off there would probably make her run past # 2.

I always think that I'm going to work on restrained recalls with Spenser to
teach him to play catch up with more enthusiasm but llately life is really
getting in the way of my training time.

Thanks for putting that up. I needed a little agility in my life this week.

Judy