On May 1, 1:05*am, "Phyrie" wrote:
"Nessa" wrote in message

...

it's been stressful at times and he still has some issues... at the
vet the other day a small JRT barked at him and he was scared. *We all
laughed because he jumped up on the bench and hid behind me putting
his head on my shoulder to peer at the other dog. (it's safe behind
mom I guess)

And that's just all kinds of charming too...
Your love of Harley shines through in your posts.
--
Phyrie
Kiba the Cav's Pics:http://www.flickr.com/photos/phyrie/...758930/detail/

he is Charming.
he will get on the couch and then rest his head on the back of the
couch intently watching whats going on behind the couch.
he rests his head on the bed waiting for his invitation to come on the
bed...

big dogs with manners are endearing.

On May 1, 1:45*am, "Paul E. Schoen" wrote:

And Nessa said that her dog "would have destroyed" Muttley. So much for
nice dogs and nice people who offer to try to find out why dogs act as they
do, and work out possible solutions.


and Bagel would have. (probably would have cured Muttley of his
'black dog' aggression).
but because his OWNER was RESPONSIBLE he was never given the chance to
be dog aggressive.

When going to the vet I would go to 'the library' if I could not sit
far enough away from other dogs.
PEOPLE were WARNED "be careful he can be cranky"

While he was a delight with my family and Hannah and folks he knew,
he was NOT proven with other dogs and I did not wish to TEST the
WATERS and see what he would do.

Both Bagel and Hannah got out of my house once and went over to a dog
that was OFF leash on MY PROPERTY. This dog went after Hannah. And
Bagel went after this dog who attacked MY OTHER DOG. Thank goodness
Brian was fearless (and STUPID) and instantly pulled Bagel off this
dog. (and now has every kid in the neighborhood in awe and fear of
him) And thank goodness my neighbors were outside to witness this.

Because when the lady threatened to SUE ME for my dog attacking her
dog, they pointed out two things.

1. her dog was illegally off leash
2. her dog was on my property

while my dogs were off leash they never left my property.

that was the ONLY time Bagel ever went after another dog. but I
already knew him to be a cranky dog and already for several years had
kept him out of dog parks and away from other dogs. Bagel attacking
this dog was no surprise to me.

Now when Hannah Gets snarky I am a bit shocked. But she usually is
provoked and usually settles right down with a bit of reminder of her
dog manners...

"Nessa" wrote in message
...
On May 1, 1:45 am, "Paul E. Schoen" wrote:

And Nessa said that her dog "would have destroyed" Muttley. So much for
nice dogs and nice people who offer to try to find out why dogs act as
they
do, and work out possible solutions.


and Bagel would have. (probably would have cured Muttley
of his 'black dog' aggression).
but because his OWNER was RESPONSIBLE he was never given
the chance to be dog aggressive.

(Or even to be just a dog...)

When going to the vet I would go to 'the library' if I could
not sit far enough away from other dogs. PEOPLE were WARNED
"be careful he can be cranky"

As I now warn others with black Labs. So what's the point?

While he was a delight with my family and Hannah and folks
he knew, he was NOT proven with other dogs and I did not wish
to TEST the WATERS and see what he would do.

So you did not understand, nor could you trust, your dog, and you did not
care enough to find a trainer or behaviorist who could allow you and him to
go places and have fun. How sad...

Both Bagel and Hannah got out of my house once and went over
to a dog that was OFF leash on MY PROPERTY. This dog went after
Hannah. And Bagel went after this dog who attacked MY OTHER DOG.
Thank goodness Brian was fearless (and STUPID) and instantly
pulled Bagel off this dog. (and now has every kid in the
neighborhood in awe and fear of him) And thank goodness my
neighbors were outside to witness this.

Because when the lady threatened to SUE ME for my dog
attacking her dog, they pointed out two things.

1. her dog was illegally off leash
2. her dog was on my property

while my dogs were off leash they never left my property.

Still, you allowed them run off-leash, even though I'm sure it was no more
your fault than it was mine when Muttley did so. You probably have excuses,
and I have my circumstances...PKB

that was the ONLY time Bagel ever went after another dog.
but I already knew him to be a cranky dog and already for
several years had kept him out of dog parks and away from other dogs.
Bagel attacking this dog was no surprise to me.

Yep, and the only time Muttley caused serious injury was before I had seen
any dog aggressive behavior and it was in a supposedly well supervised and
controlled environment where such tendencies might be noticed and corrected
before they became dangerous. But certainly I did not know and I trusted
Janet. Big mistake, eh?

Now when Hannah Gets snarky I am a bit shocked. But she usually
is provoked and usually settles right down with a bit of reminder
of her dog manners...

================================================== ===================

Usually, usually? Weasel words alert!

So, you never attempted to deal with this "problem" except by extreme
management. Janet certainly would not have been able to train it out of
him, especially by using punitive methods that often cause aggression or
make it worse. So you had to take all kinds of special precautions and
limited you and your dog to a very narrow range of socialization, rather
than determine its extent and actually attempt to deal with its root cause.

Yet you criticize me for giving Muttley the opportunity of interacting with
other people and animals, and learning more about why he acts as he does
(probably because he's "just a dog"), and make some attempt to reduce or
eliminate his apparently focused aggressive tendencies. And he has been
very good for the most part, and maybe he developed his problems *because*
of Janet's class, as he seemed fine before that.

But I'm sure Janet told you what to do (or not do), and you kissed
her...feet and blessed her for her infinite wisdom and expertise with
aggressive dogs. And how old was Bagel when he finally died? From what
cause? And do you think he had the best life possible, or could there have
been a lot of stress that contributed to his aggression and early demise? I
dunno. I'm just asking.

And now Hannah gets snarky, too? And *not only* when provoked? And she does
not *always* settle down when you give her a correction? Sounds like
another time bomb ready to burst...

Yet my friend George "SweetAss", who is the only human known to have been
bitten by Muttley, came to my house yesterday and helped me clean up my
yard, and Muttley was happy to lie in the grass and watch us work. Then I
put him in the house, and George hand-fed him some strips of raw beef
heart, and a marrow bone. Later, George went in to get some water, and I
forgot to "warn" him that Muttley was in there, but he came back out
unscathed. Today he called me and said he was scared when he went in and
Muttley came over to greet him, but he just checked him out and went back
to chewing his bone or snoozing or doing whatever it is that dogs do to
amuse themselves. George was impressed that he didn't get another nip on
his tasty posterior!

Now, what would Hannah have done? Hmmmmm. Now who has come a long way?

Paul and Muttley

"Paul E. Schoen" wrote:


And now Hannah gets snarky, too?

Hannah behaves in a perfectly normal manner for a mildly bossy middle-aged
female dog. "Snarky" does not equal "aggressive".

Sounds like another time bomb ready to burst...

ROFL. Yeah, that's why I trust her with my 12-lb dog.

Now, what would Hannah have done?

Wagged her tail so hard she'd nearly fall over, and licked George's face
if he'd given her half a chance - she's super friendly with humans, always
has been. In fact, the only issue I've ever known her to have with humans
was being TOO friendly when she was young.

On May 1, 2:41*pm, "Paul E. Schoen" wrote:
"Nessa" wrote in message
(Or even to be just a dog...)


oh trust me he was very much allowed to be a dog. till the bitter
end.




* When going to the vet I would go to 'the library' if I could
* not sit far enough away from other dogs. PEOPLE were WARNED
* "be careful he can be cranky"

As I now warn others with black Labs. So what's the point?

so you've learned your lesson finally?


* While he was a delight with my family and Hannah and folks
* he knew, he was NOT proven with other dogs and I did not wish
* to TEST the WATERS and see what he would do.

So you did not understand, nor could you trust, your dog, and you did not
care enough to find a trainer or behaviorist who could allow you and him to
go places and have fun. How sad...


what did I not understand?
and yes I did trust my dog
and yes he was trained.
and yes he went places and had fun

do you understand that BAGEL for YEARS had underlying medical
conditions that left him in chronic pain?

and hence cranky. come on siatica boy... you get that... pain
makes you cranky. you prove it here EVERY DAY.



* while my dogs were off leash they never left my property.

Still, you allowed them run off-leash, even though I'm sure it was no more
your fault than it was mine when Muttley did so. You probably have excuses,
and I have my circumstances...PKB


umm no i don't ALLOW it. unless they are in their fenced yard.
my daughter's friend opened the door and they bolted out the front
door to see a DOG on THEIR property.

I am so sorry a stranger did not know to put them in a sit stay when
opening my front door.




Yep, and the only time Muttley caused serious injury was before I had seen
any dog aggressive behavior and it was in a supposedly well supervised and
controlled environment where such tendencies might be noticed and corrected
before they became dangerous. But certainly I did not know and I trusted
Janet. Big mistake, eh?


he had already bitten your friend and indicated to you in other ways
that he was not the most even tempered dog.

you already knew you had problems.

YOU needed to be ever vigilant.

when I had bagel in class it was NOT Janet's responsibility to make
him behave (except when she used him for demo purposes)
bagel was NOT human aggressive EVER.



* Now when Hannah Gets snarky I am a bit shocked. * *But she usually
* is provoked and usually settles right down with a bit of reminder
* of her dog manners...

================================================== ===================

Usually, usually? Weasel words alert!


ok i'll rephrase. years of government writing has left me hedging my
bets.

1. hannah has never bitten a human EVER
2. hannah has never bitten another dog EVER

3. hannah gets snarky. she makes her pit bull face and snaps her
teeth at you...
and we tell her to knock it off and she does. END of Hannah's snark.



So, you never attempted to deal with this "problem" except by extreme
management. Janet certainly would not have been able to train it out of
him, especially by using punitive methods that often cause aggression or
make it worse. So you had to take all kinds of special precautions and
limited you and your dog to a very narrow range of socialization, rather
than determine its extent and actually attempt to deal with its root cause.


what problem is this that you speak of?
hannah getting snarky in her own home about her own things?
when she has something I want, be it food, a treat or something
contraband I go to her and I take it.
the worst part of this is that i have to get into the crate with
her... because she takes her treasures to her crate. always.

hannah can go anywhere with me whether it be to events with other dogs
or humans or both. she even does well at the vet with cats in the
room
my big warning with folks is "careful she likes to jump up and say
hi" because while she knows
"sit for pets" even at SEVEN she loves to meet others and she still
gets very excited.



Yet you criticize me for giving Muttley the opportunity of interacting with
other people and animals, and learning more about why he acts as he does
(probably because he's "just a dog"), and make some attempt to reduce or
eliminate his apparently focused aggressive tendencies. And he has been
very good for the most part, and maybe he developed his problems *because*
of Janet's class, as he seemed fine before that.


he bit your friend before the class correct?
you talk often of letting muttly run on the trail and being nervous
about his behavior.

just because you take a dog out into the world and let them 'do their
thing' does not mean you are properly socializing them.




But I'm sure Janet told you what to do (or not do), and you kissed
her...feet and blessed her for her infinite wisdom and expertise with
aggressive dogs. And how old was Bagel when he finally died? From what
cause? And do you think he had the best life possible, or could there have
been a lot of stress that contributed to his aggression and early demise? I
dunno. I'm just asking.

since I posted all about bagel I guess you can't bother to google.

Bagel was a rescue. I adopted him from the SPCA. I was AT LEAST his
third owner.
He was not housebroken. and I was not able to housebreak him until we
determined nearly 2 years out that he had an underactive thyroid.
once properly medicated he was housebroken almost instantaneously.
bagel was between 8 and 10 when he died which is quite average for a
dog his size.
he sadly was euthanized due to several herniated discs in his neck
that left him unable to walk at all or move much. he was in severe
pain and we felt it in his best interest to relieve his discomfort.

I do indeed think he had the best doggie life possible. his
aggression had nothing to do with his injury (which was spontaneous
and not all that unexpected in a dog of his size and weight)
his demise like I said was of an average age for large breed dogs.

any other questions about a dog dead nearly a year?



And now Hannah gets snarky, too? And *not only* when provoked? And she does
not *always* settle down when you give her a correction? Sounds like
another time bomb ready to burst...

hannah has always gotten snarky. she is a bitch after all.
she's no time bomb.
she snarks when provoked by strange dogs. can't blame her can you?
she does settle when corrected ALWAYS.


. Today he called me and said he was scared when he went in

I have NEVER had ANY human (or dog) afraid of my animals.



Now, what would Hannah have done?

you're kidding right?

Hannah?

probably split his lip when she jumped up to kiss him hello...
or bruised his shins wagging her tail in glee to see someone new...
and then when he sat down

Hannah would have laid her head on his chest and asked for kisses.

Harley?
he would bark then go to his crate....

bagel would have said hello and gone to his couch and climbed up
sighed deeply and gone to sleep...

On May 1, 2:54*pm, "sionnach" wrote:
"Paul E. Schoen" wrote:

And now Hannah gets snarky, too?

*Hannah behaves in a perfectly normal manner for a mildly bossy middle-aged
female dog. "Snarky" does not equal "aggressive".

Hannah went belly up at the vet on monday for a JRT... the same one
Harley was not too sure of (he was a 10 yr old intact male)
she had easily 40 pounds on this guy and about 6 inches in height.

she walked over she sniffed him and down and over she went.


she likes to fake that she's submissive with the little guys.






Sounds like *another time bomb ready to burst...

ROFL. *Yeah, that's why I trust her with *my 12-lb dog.

oh and you trust my 96 pounder with him too. but I tend to think he's
the one in charge when you visit?

wanna come saturday night for girls night....?

Now, what would Hannah have done?

* Wagged her tail so hard she'd nearly fall over, and licked George's face
if he'd given her half a chance - she's super friendly with humans, always
has been. In fact, the only issue I've ever known her to have with humans
was being TOO friendly when she was young.

she's still a lover... but finally at 7 she's calming down a bit...

In article ,
Nessa wrote:
oh trust me he was very much allowed to be a dog. till the bitter
end.

I'm with Sally and Matt and the others. Responding to Paul
just leads him to post more. At this point there is nobody,
apparently anywhere, who believes him, so responding doesn't
even have the indirect benefit of educating others - they
already know. And if it helps discourage you at all, you
know for a fact that when Paul reads a post responding to
him he's got his hands in his pants, right? Keep that in
mind when deciding whether or not to post.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis -

Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community

Nessa wrote:


Hannah went belly up at the vet on monday for a JRT... the same one
Harley was not too sure of (he was a 10 yr old intact male)
she had easily 40 pounds on this guy and about 6 inches in height.

she walked over she sniffed him and down and over she went.


she likes to fake that she's submissive with the little guys.

We were at a local tournament and one of my teammate's sister brought
her mastiff, Athena, up to watch. She was keeled over on her side on
the floor, all sprawled out and when I walked over with Zane she turned
onto her back and waved her front paws at him in an invitation to play.

Zane was game and bounced around, accepting her invitation... And then
Athena rolled over and pushed her 120 pound self to a stand. I wish I'd
had a camera. The "holy ****!" expression on 40 pound Zane's face was
nothing short of priceless.

He moved to the far end of his leash, well behind me, and although she
sort of gamboled around, trying to get him to romp with her, he avoided
eye contact and pretended to have suddenly remembered an important
appointment elsewhere.

Weenie dog... At least he didn't piddle, although it looked like a near
thing.

In article ,
Kathleen wrote:


He moved to the far end of his leash, well behind me, and although she
sort of gamboled around, trying to get him to romp with her, he avoided
eye contact and pretended to have suddenly remembered an important
appointment elsewhere.

Poor Zane! A camera would have been lovely!

--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com

"Nessa" wrote:

Hannah went belly up at the vet on monday for a JRT... the same one
Harley was not too sure of (he was a 10 yr old intact male)
she had easily 40 pounds on this guy and about 6 inches in height.
she walked over she sniffed him and down and over she went.

LOL. I can't help but wonder if early experience with JRTs had anything to
do with it - but I'm betting the intact status had something to do with it
too. :-)

oh and you trust my 96 pounder with him too.

Yeah, even though he's smaller than Harley's HEAD... I don't think Harley
has a clue that he could squish Cen. WRT in charge status, I think Hannah
actually has that by virtue of gender.

wanna come saturday night for girls night....?

Have to double-check with my sister later tonight - give me a call tomorrow
a.m. or send me a message on FB.