In article ,
"sionnach" wrote:

WRT in charge status, I think Hannah
actually has that by virtue of gender.

Indeed. The boys are so easily manipulated. Lucy has given up her
queen bitch status to the little black dog. There has never been
anything even close to a raised lip or such from her, but she just takes
what she wants and they all let her. Obviously, my word is the final
one and she knows better than to try to eat out of another food dish or
such.

--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com

"Nessa" wrote:

and yes he was trained.
and yes he went places and had fun

I was going through some files on my hard drive not long ago & happened to
run into some shots of Bagel out at Quiet Waters. He definitely had fun
there... well other than being a bit intimidated the time we ran into the
purebred Newfs. :-)

when I had bagel in class it was NOT Janet's responsibility to make
him behave (except when she used him for demo purposes)
bagel was NOT human aggressive EVER.

Yep. Not even when humans intervened with him and other dogs.

He was not housebroken. and I was not able to housebreak him until we
determined nearly 2 years out that he had an underactive thyroid.
once properly medicated he was housebroken almost instantaneously.

I'd forgotten that...

bagel was between 8 and 10 when he died which is quite average for a
dog his size.

Sad but true... it's always put me off of owning really big dogs.

his aggression had nothing to do with his injury

I've always wondered exactly what his breed mix was; personally I've always
thought that it couldn't have been straight Lab x New, and believed he had a
strong admixture of some sort of northern breed. Given his independent
personality & aggression level, my best guess has always been Malamute or
Chow.
As I recall his behaviour during the time period I was seeing him
regularly, he was ready to respond to challenges, and sometimes challenged
other large male dogs with sparring-type behaviour (which we always stopped
before it escalated), but never made unprovoked moves or bullied. IOW, he
behaved perfectly normally for a male dog with that type of breed
background.
I do think, though, that if he got more overtly aggressive later in life
it may have been at least partially defensive-aggressive behaviour due to
the spinal issues. As a side note, the spinal issues were most likely
inherited, once again disproving the myth of "hybrid vigor" in mixed- and
cross-bred dogs.

As regards lack of human aggression, he never gave me any issues when I
physically intervened in his sparring games, despite the fact that I only
outweighed him by about 15 lbs. :-D And as far the incident with the dog
that trespassed in your yard and went after Hannah, IMO Bagel was 100%
justified although it's a good thing Brian was there to intervene.

"sionnach" wrote:

personally I've always thought that it couldn't have been straight Lab x
New

hrmph. Or NEWF even.

On Fri, 01 May 2009 15:57:26 -0500, Kathleen
wrote:

Nessa wrote:


Hannah went belly up at the vet on monday for a JRT... the same one
Harley was not too sure of (he was a 10 yr old intact male)
she had easily 40 pounds on this guy and about 6 inches in height.

she walked over she sniffed him and down and over she went.


she likes to fake that she's submissive with the little guys.

We were at a local tournament and one of my teammate's sister brought
her mastiff, Athena, up to watch. She was keeled over on her side on
the floor, all sprawled out and when I walked over with Zane she turned
onto her back and waved her front paws at him in an invitation to play.

Zane was game and bounced around, accepting her invitation... And then
Athena rolled over and pushed her 120 pound self to a stand. I wish I'd
had a camera. The "holy ****!" expression on 40 pound Zane's face was
nothing short of priceless.

He moved to the far end of his leash, well behind me, and although she
sort of gamboled around, trying to get him to romp with her, he avoided
eye contact and pretended to have suddenly remembered an important
appointment elsewhere.

Weenie dog... At least he didn't piddle, although it looked like a near
thing.


OMG what a cute sight that must have been. I wish you had a camera.

why is it we never have a camera when we need one??
Nessa
--
trying to be the best human she can,

On Fri, 1 May 2009 17:43:32 -0400, "sionnach"
wrote:


"Nessa" wrote:

and yes he was trained.
and yes he went places and had fun

I was going through some files on my hard drive not long ago & happened to
run into some shots of Bagel out at Quiet Waters. He definitely had fun
there... well other than being a bit intimidated the time we ran into the
purebred Newfs. :-)

OH I have those pictures in photobucket... Bagel the HUGE dog looking
UP at a purebred show newf... too funny.


when I had bagel in class it was NOT Janet's responsibility to make
him behave (except when she used him for demo purposes)
bagel was NOT human aggressive EVER.

Yep. Not even when humans intervened with him and other dogs.

or taking him away from dead squirrels he really wanted... OMG I
remember that day...



He was not housebroken. and I was not able to housebreak him until we
determined nearly 2 years out that he had an underactive thyroid.
once properly medicated he was housebroken almost instantaneously.

I'd forgotten that...

I'm glad I haven't it shows me just how far he came.

bagel was between 8 and 10 when he died which is quite average for a
dog his size.

Sad but true... it's always put me off of owning really big dogs.

his aggression had nothing to do with his injury

I've always wondered exactly what his breed mix was; personally I've always
thought that it couldn't have been straight Lab x New, and believed he had a
strong admixture of some sort of northern breed. Given his independent
personality & aggression level, my best guess has always been Malamute or
Chow.

later in life I really believe he was a newf/chow they are fairly
common... and make very fluffy dogs..


As I recall his behaviour during the time period I was seeing him
regularly, he was ready to respond to challenges, and sometimes challenged
other large male dogs with sparring-type behaviour (which we always stopped
before it escalated), but never made unprovoked moves or bullied. IOW, he
behaved perfectly normally for a male dog with that type of breed
background.

it's true he was delightful when we were getting together regularly.
and the change was gradual over the years..



I do think, though, that if he got more overtly aggressive later in life
it may have been at least partially defensive-aggressive behaviour due to
the spinal issues. As a side note, the spinal issues were most likely
inherited, once again disproving the myth of "hybrid vigor" in mixed- and
cross-bred dogs.

yes that's what the vet said. he told us it was not anything we did
and we know NOW that he had been in low-grade pain for many years. we
thought he was hot.



As regards lack of human aggression, he never gave me any issues when I
physically intervened in his sparring games, despite the fact that I only
outweighed him by about 15 lbs. :-D And as far the incident with the dog
that trespassed in your yard and went after Hannah, IMO Bagel was 100%
justified although it's a good thing Brian was there to intervene.

it's funny I don't think he would have gone after that dog if that dog
had not attacked Hannah. Bagel always watched out for her. I
wonder if it's because we got her when she was 9 weeks old and she was
"his puppy"

Nessa
--
trying to be the best human she can,

On Fri, 1 May 2009 17:13:25 -0400, "sionnach"
wrote:


"Nessa" wrote:

Hannah went belly up at the vet on monday for a JRT... the same one
Harley was not too sure of (he was a 10 yr old intact male)
she had easily 40 pounds on this guy and about 6 inches in height.
she walked over she sniffed him and down and over she went.

LOL. I can't help but wonder if early experience with JRTs had anything to
do with it - but I'm betting the intact status had something to do with it
too. :-)

I thought that too! the little guy was about Rosci shape and coloring



oh and you trust my 96 pounder with him too.

Yeah, even though he's smaller than Harley's HEAD... I don't think Harley
has a clue that he could squish Cen. WRT in charge status, I think Hannah
actually has that by virtue of gender.

oh for sure Hannah is large and in charge due to her gender... and
being 7 to his 16 months does not hurt either... but if you know dogs
it is funny to watch them... she can almost walk under him now....



wanna come saturday night for girls night....?

Have to double-check with my sister later tonight - give me a call tomorrow
a.m. or send me a message on FB.

will do!

Nessa
--
trying to be the best human she can,

In article ,
Nessa wrote:


Have to double-check with my sister later tonight - give me a call tomorrow
a.m. or send me a message on FB.

will do!

one of these days!

--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com

On Fri, 01 May 2009 18:29:37 -0400, Janet Boss
wrote:

In article ,
Nessa wrote:


Have to double-check with my sister later tonight - give me a call tomorrow
a.m. or send me a message on FB.

will do!

one of these days!


oh hell Yes!
Nessa
--
trying to be the best human she can,

On Fri, 01 May 2009 21:34:50 -0400, elegy
wrote:

On Fri, 01 May 2009 15:57:26 -0500, Kathleen
wrote:

Weenie dog... At least he didn't piddle, although it looked like a near
thing.

hahahaha. priceless. steve would have wet his pants.

Harley has been known to be a submissive pee-er.

which is a real mess to clean up... he has a HUGE bladder.
Nessa
--
trying to be the best human she can,

On May 1, 1:41�pm, "Paul E. Schoen" wrote:
"Nessa" wrote in message

...
On May 1, 1:45 am, "Paul E. Schoen" wrote:

(Or even to be just a dog...)

***
Responsible owners don't intentionally allow their dogs to "just be
dogs" at the expense of other people's dogs.
***

As I now warn others with black Labs. So what's the point?

***
Before or after you allow Muttley to get in their faces? Or unleash
him to attack them?
****
So, you never attempted to deal with this "problem" except by extreme
management. Janet certainly would not have been able to train it out of
him, especially by using punitive methods that often cause aggression or
make it worse. So you had to take all kinds of special precautions and
limited you and your dog to a very narrow range of socialization, rather
than determine its extent and actually attempt to deal with its root cause.

Yet you criticize me for giving Muttley the opportunity of interacting with
other people and animals, and learning more about why he acts as he does
(probably because he's "just a dog"), and make some attempt to reduce or
eliminate his apparently focused aggressive tendencies. And he has been
very good for the most part, and maybe he developed his problems *because*
of Janet's class, as he seemed fine before that.

***
Yeah, You'd had him a few weeks and he'd already bitten a person.
***

But I'm sure Janet told you what to do (or not do), and you kissed
her...feet and blessed her for her infinite wisdom and expertise with
aggressive dogs.

***
I am betting you know I don't kiss any part of Janet's anatomy. But I
also think you are a danger to other pet owners. Not your dog, you.
***


Yet my friend George "SweetAss", who is the only human known to
have been
bitten by Muttley, came to my house yesterday and helped me clean up my
yard, and Muttley was happy to lie in the grass and watch us work. Then I
put him in the house, and George hand-fed him some strips of raw beef
heart, and a marrow bone. Later, George went in to get some water, and I
forgot to "warn" him that Muttley was in there, but he came back out
unscathed.

***
So you just didn't think that it was necessary to mention to a person
that your dog had bitten in the past that he was loose in the house.
Nice. You got lucky, sucker. By the way, I notice the people on
VictoriaStilwell.com are starting to figure you out. Especially with
all of your little side comments on how you like to push buttons and
irritate people. The moderator all but called you a troll yesterday.
Not sure if you even noticed. BTW, while Paul's here talking about
positive training, he's over there telling everyone how necessary
punishment is in some situations. He does know how to play both sides
of the aisle.
Sandy in OK