As you may know, my dear friend Janet Boss has now infested the
www.VictoriaStilwell.com forum and is whining about how she claims I have
been fabricating stories to make her look bad, so you are welcome to go
take a look and dive in if you wish. Here's a shortcut:
http://www.victoriastilwell.com/phpB...?p=23222#23222

Meanwhile I have also signed up on the Cesar Millan forum and I just posted
this:
http://ngccommunity.nationalgeograph...ggression.html

Hopefully, between the two forums, I might be able to get some actual
advice and not have to deal with the games that are played here. It's fun,
but the signal-to-noise ratio is pretty low, and I really would like to
engage in some civilized, rational discussions instead of the word games
and weirdness that is the norm here.

So, go for it. I'll post the text here if anyone is seriously interested.
It's just a compilation of the various times and circumstances in which
Muttley has shown aggression toward a young male black Lab. It would be
helpful if Janet could tell me what the breed of the dog was that Muttley
lunged for in her third class, but IIRC she recently said it was not a
black Lab, although she probably was not paying attention as usual and in
any case she has no interest in helping determine a common denominator in
these incidents. So I would not trust her to do anything but lie to
obfuscate the evidence.

So many forums, so little time.

Paul and Muttley

"Paul E. Schoen" wrote in message
...
As you may know, my dear friend Janet Boss has now infested the
www.VictoriaStilwell.com forum and is whining about how she claims I have
been fabricating stories to make her look bad, so you are welcome to go
take a look and dive in if you wish. Here's a shortcut:
http://www.victoriastilwell.com/phpB...?p=23222#23222

Don't bother looking for that last shortcut. Janet threatened the Victoria
Stilwell forum with legal action and the moderator took down most of the
thread. But she does not have any evidence to support her allegation of
libel, and it is generally required of the plaintiff to prove untruth. More
details are he
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defamation

Yes, I also talked to an attorney. I don't 100% rely on the Wiki.

And what I am doing is really whistle blowing:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whistle-blowing

Paul and Muttley

On May 2, 12:49�pm, "Paul E. Schoen" wrote:
Don't bother looking for that last shortcut. Janet threatened the Victoria
Stilwell forum with legal action and the moderator took down most of the
thread.


Actually, I think Janet was "threatening" you. And the moderator took
down part of the thread because she didn't want you hijacking it.

"Sandy in OK" wrote in message
...
On May 2, 12:49�pm, "Paul E. Schoen" wrote:
Don't bother looking for that last shortcut. Janet threatened the
Victoria
Stilwell forum with legal action and the moderator took down most of the
thread.


Actually, I think Janet was "threatening" you. And the moderator took
down part of the thread because she didn't want you hijacking it.

If Janet wants to threaten me then she can do it directly or through a
lawyer. She made herself a member just so she could post, said she didn't
want to be there but asked people to PM her for her slant on things, and
threw in a jab about "Libel is not a good place to be" or some such rot.
She accused me of fabrications here and elsewhere. I've never told a lie,
and it is up to the plaintiff to prove that what I say is, in fact, untrue,
and not just my opinion or what I believe to be true.

I did not hijack the thread, but it did assume a life of its own and went
on some wild tangents. It was actually interesting and lively, and some
good points were raised. It's a shame Janet had to waddle in there and
throw her weight around. The moderator PM'd me and said in effect that
Janet had threatened legal action. So it had a "chilling effect" on open
dialog and took another chunk out of free speech. Of course, the UK does
not have a first amendment.

I found another forum that is very active and fun, and allows the freedom
to post images and links and all the other cool things that make it
colorful and interesting. It does have very clear rules for posting
guidelines and rules, which are more liberal and common sense than those on
VS. Try:
http://www.dogsey.com/showthread.php?t=105835

Think positive!

Paul and Muttley

On May 2, 5:24�pm, "Paul E. Schoen" wrote:
"Sandy in OK" wrote in ...
On May 2, 12:49 pm, "Paul E. Schoen" wrote:

Don't bother looking for that last shortcut. Janet threatened the
Victoria
Stilwell forum with legal action and the moderator took down most of the
thread.

� Actually, I think Janet was "threatening" you. And the moderator took
� down part of the thread because she didn't want you hijacking it.

"Sandy in OK" wrote in message
...
On May 2, 5:24�pm, "Paul E. Schoen" wrote:
"Sandy in OK" wrote in
...
On May 2, 12:49 pm, "Paul E. Schoen" wrote:

Don't bother looking for that last shortcut. Janet threatened the
Victoria
Stilwell forum with legal action and the moderator took down most of
the
thread.

� Actually, I think Janet was "threatening" you. And the moderator took
� down part of the thread because she didn't want you hijacking it.

If Janet wants to threaten me then she can do it directly or through a
lawyer. She made herself a member just so she could post, said she didn't
want to be there but asked people to PM her for her slant on things, and
threw in a jab about "Libel is not a good place to be" or some such rot.
She accused me of fabrications here and elsewhere. I've never told a lie,
and it is up to the plaintiff to prove that what I say is, in fact,
untrue,
and not just my opinion or what I believe to be true.

***
Defamation of character (slander and libel) doesn't always have to
absolutely be proven to be a "lie". And, I think if Janet was that
bored or angry, she'd have a decent case against you, and probably
plenty of people who would testify that you were trying to do damage
to her business, and also testify that her training methods are not
much out of the ordinary. If they can't make animal cruelty stick on
Ami Moore, I don't think you'll have much luck convincing people that
Janet is abusive. While I'm not terribly fond of some of the methods
Janet has reported using at various times, I recognize that there are
many trainers who use those methods, they are not illegal, and they
are, in fact, more the rule than the exception. While I may challenge
a trainer on their methods, I won't trash them on forums where they
aren't present to defend themselves. That is cowardly, and it just
plain sux. Perhaps you can start the "Paul" forum where you can rant
about Janet (and that clicker trainer you've been blaming for allowing
you to let your dog attack another dog at her business) to your
hearts content, and nobody will care.

================================================== ====================

Well, we'll just have to see about that. Janet called me an "asshole",
which is certainly much more of a defamatory remark than my consistent and
truthful descriptions of her training methods, and particularly the
treatment Muttley and I received in her class. And now you are accusing me
of "blaming" the clicker trainer for the incident at her facility, when I
have done no such thing. In fact I thought she handled it very
professionally, and even though she was very direct about asking me to
leave, she later even apologized for that, which I thought was a nice
gesture although hardly necessary. So you are putting words in my mouth and
creating more of a fabrication that reflects negatively on my reputation,
which could be interpreted as defamation. I appreciate your direct
comments, and I know that you and many people here do not like me, but when
people say things that are not true, others blow it up until the perception
is much worse than the facts.

I'm sure I can find several posts in the archives where Janet has directly
insulted me with vulgar language, while I almost always refrain from doing
so. I may present the facts in a "dramatic" manner, and I may resort to
obvious hyperbole and sarcasm, but when I assert that something actually
happened, then by golly it most certainly did, as seen by my own eyes.

This whole business has gotten ridiculous. In almost every instance someone
has made a derogatory or untrue remark about me, and I have responded in
kind. If I believe someone is operating a business in an unsafe or
unprofessional manner, and I have personal experience to prove it, then am
I not right to expose it? And I am not saying anything new or different, so
any damage was done long ago. Everyone here has already made up their mind
as to who is right or wrong. And my comments elsewhere are only accounts of
my actual experiences with the only dog obedience trainer I have taken
classes with, and I think the details are important to determine if they
were contributory to my dog's occasional aggressive tendencies. It has
moved far beyond blame. I am looking for ways to make sure my dog does not
do any damage to other dogs or people, and finding the cause may involve
looking at his history.

Let's move on, shall we?

Paul and Muttley

On May 2, 9:36�pm, "Paul E. Schoen" wrote:
Well, we'll just have to see about that. Janet called me an "asshole",
which is certainly much more of a defamatory remark than my consistent and
truthful descriptions of her training methods, and particularly the
treatment Muttley and I received in her class.

By calling you an asshole do you think she was trying to ruin your
business, or just call a spade a spade? Does she run all over the
internet looking for new places to call you an asshole? On the other
hand, you have been pasting her website all over high-traffic forums
where she doesn't even post, blaming her for you allowing your
aggressive dog to continue to beat up other dogs for the past couple
of years, and intentionally trying to ruin her business. You have a
whole blog dedicated to ruining Janet's reputation as a trainer. It
should be noted that I find you irritating, and highly irresponsible
with your dog. But I don't dislike you. I disagree with Janet about a
number of things in dog training, but I don't dislike her either.

Let's move on, shall we?

Well, Paul, if you're really wanting to move on, I think it might be
time to stop attacking a person for a mistake that was as much yours
as hers, and happened two years ago, and publicly going after her
business on every forum you can find. HTH.

"Sandy in OK" wrote in message
...
On May 2, 9:36�pm, "Paul E. Schoen" wrote:
Well, we'll just have to see about that. Janet called me an "asshole",
which is certainly much more of a defamatory remark than my consistent
and
truthful descriptions of her training methods, and particularly the
treatment Muttley and I received in her class.

By calling you an asshole do you think she was trying to ruin your
business, or just call a spade a spade? Does she run all over the
internet looking for new places to call you an asshole? On the other
hand, you have been pasting her website all over high-traffic forums
where she doesn't even post, blaming her for you allowing your
aggressive dog to continue to beat up other dogs for the past couple
of years, and intentionally trying to ruin her business. You have a
whole blog dedicated to ruining Janet's reputation as a trainer. It
should be noted that I find you irritating, and highly irresponsible
with your dog. But I don't dislike you. I disagree with Janet about a
number of things in dog training, but I don't dislike her either.

Let's move on, shall we?

Well, Paul, if you're really wanting to move on, I think it might be
time to stop attacking a person for a mistake that was as much yours
as hers, and happened two years ago, and publicly going after her
business on every forum you can find. HTH.

================================================== ====================

I am moving on, and I can see that it my reactivity has been more often
triggered by other people here than by Janet herself. But when a big pack
of dogs is coming at you, it's hard to figure out which ones are just
barking and which ones are biting.

But Janet, and others, have also attempted defamation of my own character
and my business by making unfounded and rude attacks, questioning my
professional abilities as an engineer and computer programmer, and also
accusing me of stalking and being of unstable and dangerous mental
condition.

I know that I reacted imprudently when Janet called me an "asshole" in
response to my sincere good wishes for her dogs when they were ill. Maybe I
should not play nice, and perhaps I should not play at all. I'm sure it was
interpreted as another attempt to push a button, and perhaps it was. But if
it were ignored, or if the response was neutral or civil, it would not have
instigated another round of the same old crap.

I have found that the Dog Whisperer forum is not well organized and does
not allow insertion of pictures or editing of posts, so I will probably not
be very active there. The forum at www.victoriastilwell.com is very
inflexible and the censorship of any real discussion makes it of less
interest, so I will probably soon lose interest there as well. I have found
another forum, http://www.dogsey.com/dog-forums.php, which is well
organized and very active. I have started a thread there that intends to
discuss the issues of libel, defamation, and appropriateness of what should
or should not be allowed. My attempt to do so on the VS forum resulted in
more censorship by the moderator and a locked thread, so any discussion has
been discouraged.

From now on, I plan to make it clear that any references to my experiences
with dog training are an attempt to determine how much that affected my
dog's actions, and not so much a condemnation of the methods that were
inflicted on me and Muttley. But I can use my experiences as an example of
abuse. Even William Koehler said that the worst thing you can do in dog
training is to be inconsistent and allow a dog to disobey a command under
any circumstance. I think he was talking about variable reinforcement of
unwanted behavior. And by repeatedly and ineffectively yanking on a prong
collar while attempting my dog to comply to my commands, I was reinforcing
his experience that he could disobey, and the rewards of doing so
outweighed the momentary discomfort of collar pops. So, yes, it was my
fault that I did not know that at the time. But a good instructor would see
that and make sure it did not continue.

Paul and Muttley

Good lord Paul. You are completely obsessed with Janet and you bring
up her name in every post you make. Get over yourself. You are an
asshole. I'm not a big fan of Janet, but when it comes to her, you are
an asshole. The incident in her was what? Well over a year ago, right?
Your dog is over it, you need to be also. You are a big whiner who
blames everything on everyone else.

Lauralyn

LL wrote:
The incident in her was what? Well over a year ago, right?

Over two years ago.

The rest of your post was spot on though ;-)