Dutch wrote
Hi again, I didn't mention, I also read the books recommended, have Rugaas'
video, however I do not want you to get the impression I have given up, I
re-read that page again (I have it printed out somewhere) and I see some
finer points I may have missed that I think I can try again, like how to
circle, distract and treat when another dog comes into the picture, IF I
can
catch it in time :)
I hope that our lack of success has been only to our
inability to execute the techniques correctly, they are difficult to pull
off under duress.

We're more or less posting at the same time. Which country are you in?
Sorry if I have repeated advice you have already had or tried.
I guess you have to adapt the method to your indivudual circumstances
and your dog, Archie and see what works by trial and error.
That's the thing catching it in time! Often it's impossible to stop
other dogs approaching. Barney would go ballistic and after that he would
be over reactive for the rest of the walk. Also the same problem as you, if
he was too upset he wouldn't take the treat. My OH often walked with us and
if another dog approached we would stand in front of Barney and try to
block the other dog. There's not much else you can do when that happens. It
was often two steps forward and one step back and even now there will be
times when he still reacts when a dog comes out suddenly but he gets over
it quicker .
It was chipping away at his behaviour and marking the slightest pause in
barking or looking away that seemed to help and C&T ing rapidly in the
longer periods of no barking etc that helped the most. It was easier when
he barked at people as we could ask them to ignore him or what ever and
they usually were willing to comply but not many had good control over
their dogs!
Good luck . I watched the video and Archie is cute.
Alison

"Dutch" wrote in message
...

"Paul E. Schoen" wrote in message
news


I think there is merit in a wide range of methods. Victoria Stilwell and
her followers adhere to a rather narrow subset of methods, while CM has
a broad spectrum of tools from which to choose. An effective method must
fit the dog as well as the handler, and attitude is a huge part of the
equation.

For more specific advice and a wider audience, you should try the VS
forum which is now www.positively.com, and also the CM forum at
http://community.sessionswithcesar.com/. They are both very active and
each has their share of experts as well as newbies and people with
varying degrees of experience. For the most part, they are friendly
places to hang out and give and take ideas, but there is a strong
anti-Millan sentiment in the VS group. I was actually banned (in a
previous incarnation) for daring to criticize a couple of IMOTD
episodes.

Focus on the handler is a very important basis from which most other
obedience training extends, and it can be reinforced with a clicker or
other markers. For your problem with your dog "going nuts" around other
dogs, it seems that he does not fully trust you as a "pack leader" to
deal with what he sees as a critical situation, and he acts on his own.
If you can remain calm and assertive, and take steps to break his
attention to the other dog and direct it to you, the problem will soon
be solved. But it is easier said than done.

Good luck.

Paul and Muttley
www.muttleydog.com

Thanks very much for the response Paul. I read some of your other
thoughts via your link and I think that we see things quite similarly. I
have visited the DM forums as well as Clickersolutions. The discipline
method that CM uses sometimes can bring about quick results but they
don't seem to build trust or consistency. CM also uses the positive
association techniques that all these other experts recommend
exclusively. The trick is knowing when to use which method and how to
implement. Archie, our dog, displays a combination of high excitement,
anxiety, fear, and bossiness when confronted with his triggers, which is
all strange animals. He is OK with our cats. It is next to impossible to
fully keep his attention while we are walking because other things are
just more interesting than even HVT like chicken strips. I noticed that
you called offering food rewards to get attention a "gimmick" but the
advocates of positive conditioning consider it the core of the training,
associating what you want, the dog's attention, with something *they*
want. It is very tempting to think in terms of "real" dog training being
akin to "obedience to the master" but that seems to have lost favor to
the idea of a well behaved dog offering good behavior because he
associates it with what he considers good things. CM seems to be the last
advocate of "pack leadership" as a core training principle. We feed
Archie by hand because we want him to think that everything good comes
through us. When we walk, he doesn't "go sniff" at the end of the leash
until we give the command. Whenever he looks up at us during walks he
gets a treat or piece of kibble.

The challenge with Archie is that explodes when he sees another dog and
there is no effective way to intervene, sometimes I tie him to a pole and
turn my back on him until he calms down then I go back and reward the
calm behaviour. This was recommended by a behaviourist. Tugging on his
harness has little or no effect. My wife says she is sometimes able to
lead him away with HVT but distraction has not been very effective for
me. The most effective method in terms of instant results has been on the
rare occasion I have lost my patience and got down in his face and
shouted with primal force anger SHUT UP!!! In effect what I am getting
him to do is fear my rage more than whatever imagined threat he perceives
in the other dog, in these cases the submits and the walk tends to end
with him following me meekly. This does not seem right at all and I do
not believe it would result in long term good results.

I don't know, it might be just a matter of time, but it is hard to see
when there is little improvement in 6 months.

Here he is in the house, he's as cute as a button.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xfQaLefjzA

I should make a video of one of his meltdowns.

He is really cute, and he seems to enjoy playing fetch with his "bone". I
see you were trying to get him to bring it directly to you, and that is a
good target for additional training. I don't have much experience with
smaller breeds, but what I have seen lends credence to their reputation of
being high-strung, and also being more reactive and aggressive toward
other, larger dogs.

Muttley is very laid back, and he usually ignores other dogs even when they
are going ballistic. But I need to be careful when I allow him to greet
other dogs, as it seems that he can make them defensive to the point where
they make an aggressive move, and if I don't intervene I fear that he might
take the offensive and cause damage. He is about 80lb and solidly built,
and he has caused injury to other dogs on several occasions when I was not
watching closely.

He is not much for playing fetch, but I have worked with him so that he
will bring me a marrow bone that I toss, and he will even offer one or more
to me in expectation of a treat. More recently I have even asked him to
pick up and bring me a battery or other item I have dropped, and eventually
he will take the object in his mouth and place it in my hand. The only
problem is that he gets very excited and jumpy, and sometimes he will drop
the item or throw it. Not bad if it's a soft toy, but I have had to dodge
hard marrow bones to avoid injury.

It is probably difficult to use the same training methods on a cute little
Yorkie that I might use on my big mutt. In your video you and your wife (I
assume) used soft voices and excited laughter when addressing him, which is
probably natural with a cute little dog, while I would use a deeper and
more serious tone when communicating with Muttley. Of course I also use a
friendly "good boy" to let him know when he is offering the desired
behavior.

I won't pretend that Muttley is well-trained or that I have any special
talent regarding dog behavior. But I believe I have a fairly good
understanding of canine communication and I think my approach to unfamiliar
dogs builds mutual respect and trust. But my experience is somewhat
limited. It is good that you seem willing to try various methods and I'm
sure you will find some that work. It may take a long time, especially with
positive rewards-based training, but with consistency and a calm assertive
attitude you should be successful.

Paul and Muttley
www.muttleydog.com

Hi Alison, I know about Clickersolutions, I posted about Archie there last
summer, and have already studied that page until I can almost recite it by
heart. Unfortunately these methods have not worked with Archie.


Have you tried Control Unleashed?

"Cassy" wrote in message
...


Have you tried Control Unleashed?

I've not read this book but I have often seen it recommend.
To the OP , there are various Yahoo dog groups for reactive and/or
aggressive dogs . Might be worth joining for support at least.
Alison

"Alison" wrote:
"Cassy" wrote in message
...


Have you tried Control Unleashed?

I've not read this book but I have often seen it recommend.

In the very first part of Control Unleashed, the author cautions the reader
that not all reactive dogs are suitable for the techniques used in the
book. It's a very good book, and well worth consulting, but the caveat
should also be mentioned with the recommendations.


--
Mary H. and the restored Ames National Zoo:
The Right Reverand Sir Edgar "Lucky" Pan-Waffles;
U-CD ANZ Babylon Ranger, CD, RE; ANZ Pas de Duke, RN;
Caris and rotund Rhia

"Cassy" wrote in message
...


Hi Alison, I know about Clickersolutions, I posted about Archie there
last
summer, and have already studied that page until I can almost recite it
by
heart. Unfortunately these methods have not worked with Archie.


Have you tried Control Unleashed?

Yup, very good book, read it twice. I know all the theories, the trick is in
the implementation, which I am learning gradually.

I'll tell you my current plan, which seems to be working pretty well.. knock
on wood

When I get up and am preparing for our morning walk Archie is popping up and
down like popcorn, so I get ready quietly, slowly, deliberately, deep
breathing, ommmm.

I put a baggie of chicken pieces and some liver tidbits in my pocket, I let
him smell the chicken.

I put on his harness and tell him to sit while I open the back door. If he
jumps up I close the door and ask him again to sit and stay. We don't go out
until he sits in front of the open door waiting for my permission to go out.
Praise, treat

As we walk slowly down the walkway I treat him with liver bits and praise
him. If he pulls ahead I stop until he comes back to my side.

If he starts getting anxious as we walk I divert to the side, get down to
him, get his attention, and do a little timeout dumping out some chicken for
him, which he must wait for me to say "take it" before he can eat it.

When he has calmed enough down we carry on, every time he glances my way I
toss a liver treat on the ground and say "take it".

If I see another dog I try to divert him so he's not facing the dog and
start treating him to keep his attention on me.

If he starts a barking fit I shorten up on the leash, get down, take a deep
breath, keep trying to distract him with treats, and wait out the storm.
Sometimes if there is a convenient pole nearby I will tie his leash to it
and walk a few paces away and turn my back until he stops.

When it's over I treat and praise him lavishly.

I am abandoning all forms of negativity, the little guy is doing the best he
can, so am I.

"Mary Healey" wrote in message
.245...


In the very first part of Control Unleashed, the author cautions the
reader
that not all reactive dogs are suitable for the techniques used in the
book. It's a very good book, and well worth consulting, but the caveat
should also be mentioned with the recommendations.


Thanks It was recommended to me on a dog behaviour fourm. At that time
I was C&T ing Barney for looking away and had seen improvement and the book
suggested the opposite, C&T for looking at the scary thing . I was worried
about rewarding for a hard stare so decided to stick with what I was doing.
There are so many dog training and behaviour books and more being
published all the time. I haven't been able to keep up with them all though
this is one I hope to read one day.
Alison

"Alison" wrote in message
...

"Mary Healey" wrote in message
.245...


In the very first part of Control Unleashed, the author cautions the
reader
that not all reactive dogs are suitable for the techniques used in the
book. It's a very good book, and well worth consulting, but the caveat
should also be mentioned with the recommendations.


Thanks It was recommended to me on a dog behaviour fourm. At that time
I was C&T ing Barney for looking away and had seen improvement and the
book suggested the opposite, C&T for looking at the scary thing . I was
worried about rewarding for a hard stare so decided to stick with what I
was doing.
There are so many dog training and behaviour books and more being
published all the time. I haven't been able to keep up with them all
though this is one I hope to read one day.
Alison

I think that once you read all the books, watched all the shows, and
understand the basic theories you have to focus on figuring out exactly what
is at the root of your dog's particular issue. In the case of my little
Archie I have finally realized that his underlying problem is insecurity. So
my strategy is based on doing everything possible to make him feel safe and
secure, building trust in other words, and avoiding anything that might make
him feel vulnerable or frightened. This must be very common with shelter
dogs that have been abandoned or shuttled around due to behaviour problems.

I have a 13 year old yorkie, Mitsy. We call her Psycho Dog. The name says it
all.

"Cassy" wrote in message
...


Hi Alison, I know about Clickersolutions, I posted about Archie there
last
summer, and have already studied that page until I can almost recite it
by
heart. Unfortunately these methods have not worked with Archie.


Have you tried Control Unleashed?