I rescued this dog 6 months ago from a shelter. He is a male Yorkie-poodle
about 2 or 3. When we are out for a walk and he sees another dog he goes
absolutely nuts. I have seen two different behaviour experts and watched
every episode of the Dog Whisperer. He is getting the total positive
approach now, we feed him by hand, go out the door first, stay calm, reward
him for paying attention to us, but one problem is that he becomes very
anxious out in the world and that leads to these loud outbursts. Nothing we
have done has helped much with this problem. We either wait until he stops
then reward *that*, and/or sometimes tether him and walk away until he
settles down. The only small clue to a possible cure is that he spent four
days in the pound a few months ago because he got away from a sitter, and
that seemed to diffuse his reactivity temporarily. I have tried introducing
him carefully to the other dog with the cooperation of the other owner, but
that only works sometimes and is also temporary, he just does a rinse and
repeat with the next dog. In an open setting running loose with other dogs
he is not nearly as bad, but he's still too excitable to be considered
social enough to be put in those situations, and if the park is not enclosed
he can sometimes just take a total runner.. The leash is what really sets
his trigger though. So I'll leave it at that for now in case anyone has an
idea and has questions.

Dutch wrote:
I rescued this dog 6 months ago from a shelter. He is a male
Yorkie-poodle about 2 or 3. When we are out for a walk and he sees
another dog he goes absolutely nuts. I have seen two different behaviour
experts and watched every episode of the Dog Whisperer. He is getting
the total positive approach now, we feed him by hand, go out the door
first, stay calm, reward him for paying attention to us, but one problem
is that he becomes very anxious out in the world and that leads to these
loud outbursts. Nothing we have done has helped much with this problem.
We either wait until he stops then reward *that*, and/or sometimes
tether him and walk away until he settles down. The only small clue to a
possible cure is that he spent four days in the pound a few months ago
because he got away from a sitter, and that seemed to diffuse his
reactivity temporarily. I have tried introducing him carefully to the
other dog with the cooperation of the other owner, but that only works
sometimes and is also temporary, he just does a rinse and repeat with
the next dog. In an open setting running loose with other dogs he is not
nearly as bad, but he's still too excitable to be considered social
enough to be put in those situations, and if the park is not enclosed he
can sometimes just take a total runner.. The leash is what really sets
his trigger though. So I'll leave it at that for now in case anyone has
an idea and has questions.

It's Me or the Dog had an episode this morning about a dog that
sounds very similar - the episode is called The Berry Bunch.
Looks like it's going to be on again Sunday 1/17 tonight (11 PM
MST) - Check your local listing for Animal Planet.

One thing she did was focus training - reinforcing the dog for
focusing on the handler, first in a calm situation, then outdoors.

FurPaw

--
We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our
own facts.
- Sen. Al Franken (D) to Sen. John Thune (R)

To reply, unleash the dog.

"FurPaw" wrote
Dutch wrote:
I rescued this dog 6 months ago from a shelter. He is a male
Yorkie-poodle about 2 or 3. When we are out for a walk and he sees
another dog he goes absolutely nuts. I have seen two different behaviour
experts and watched every episode of the Dog Whisperer. He is getting the
total positive approach now, we feed him by hand, go out the door first,
stay calm, reward him for paying attention to us, but one problem is that
he becomes very anxious out in the world and that leads to these loud
outbursts. Nothing we have done has helped much with this problem. We
either wait until he stops then reward *that*, and/or sometimes tether
him and walk away until he settles down. The only small clue to a
possible cure is that he spent four days in the pound a few months ago
because he got away from a sitter, and that seemed to diffuse his
reactivity temporarily. I have tried introducing him carefully to the
other dog with the cooperation of the other owner, but that only works
sometimes and is also temporary, he just does a rinse and repeat with the
next dog. In an open setting running loose with other dogs he is not
nearly as bad, but he's still too excitable to be considered social
enough to be put in those situations, and if the park is not enclosed he
can sometimes just take a total runner.. The leash is what really sets
his trigger though. So I'll leave it at that for now in case anyone has
an idea and has questions.

It's Me or the Dog had an episode this morning about a dog that sounds
very similar - the episode is called The Berry Bunch. Looks like it's
going to be on again Sunday 1/17 tonight (11 PM MST) - Check your local
listing for Animal Planet.

One thing she did was focus training - reinforcing the dog for focusing on
the handler, first in a calm situation, then outdoors.

Thank you for the response.

You have hit on the most common advice we have received, the question is how
to implement. Even if he is paying attention to me due to the chicken in my
hand, if he notices another dog all bets are off.

I was thinking that desensitizing him might be effective, kind of like when
Cesar Milan takes an unstable dog into his pack to get him socialized by the
influence of a lot of balanced dogs. The reason I think that might work is
because he was ignoring other dogs for a while when he came out of the
pound. Also when I got him from the shelter he wasn't as bad as he is now.

Every expert I have consulted thinks Milan's methods are no good, but I am
open to everything.

"Dutch" wrote in message
...

"FurPaw" wrote
Dutch wrote:
I rescued this dog 6 months ago from a shelter. He is a male
Yorkie-poodle about 2 or 3. When we are out for a walk and he sees
another dog he goes absolutely nuts. I have seen two different
behaviour experts and watched every episode of the Dog Whisperer. He is
getting the total positive approach now, we feed him by hand, go out
the door first, stay calm, reward him for paying attention to us, but
one problem is that he becomes very anxious out in the world and that
leads to these loud outbursts. Nothing we have done has helped much
with this problem. We either wait until he stops then reward *that*,
and/or sometimes tether him and walk away until he settles down. The
only small clue to a possible cure is that he spent four days in the
pound a few months ago because he got away from a sitter, and that
seemed to diffuse his reactivity temporarily. I have tried introducing
him carefully to the other dog with the cooperation of the other owner,
but that only works sometimes and is also temporary, he just does a
rinse and repeat with the next dog. In an open setting running loose
with other dogs he is not nearly as bad, but he's still too excitable
to be considered social enough to be put in those situations, and if
the park is not enclosed he can sometimes just take a total runner..
The leash is what really sets his trigger though. So I'll leave it at
that for now in case anyone has an idea and has questions.

It's Me or the Dog had an episode this morning about a dog that sounds
very similar - the episode is called The Berry Bunch. Looks like it's
going to be on again Sunday 1/17 tonight (11 PM MST) - Check your local
listing for Animal Planet.

One thing she did was focus training - reinforcing the dog for focusing
on the handler, first in a calm situation, then outdoors.

Thank you for the response.

You have hit on the most common advice we have received, the question is
how to implement. Even if he is paying attention to me due to the chicken
in my hand, if he notices another dog all bets are off.

I was thinking that desensitizing him might be effective, kind of like
when Cesar Milan takes an unstable dog into his pack to get him
socialized by the influence of a lot of balanced dogs. The reason I think
that might work is because he was ignoring other dogs for a while when he
came out of the pound. Also when I got him from the shelter he wasn't as
bad as he is now.

Every expert I have consulted thinks Milan's methods are no good, but I
am open to everything.

I think there is merit in a wide range of methods. Victoria Stilwell and
her followers adhere to a rather narrow subset of methods, while CM has a
broad spectrum of tools from which to choose. An effective method must fit
the dog as well as the handler, and attitude is a huge part of the
equation.

For more specific advice and a wider audience, you should try the VS forum
which is now www.positively.com, and also the CM forum at
http://community.sessionswithcesar.com/. They are both very active and each
has their share of experts as well as newbies and people with varying
degrees of experience. For the most part, they are friendly places to hang
out and give and take ideas, but there is a strong anti-Millan sentiment in
the VS group. I was actually banned (in a previous incarnation) for daring
to criticize a couple of IMOTD episodes.

Focus on the handler is a very important basis from which most other
obedience training extends, and it can be reinforced with a clicker or
other markers. For your problem with your dog "going nuts" around other
dogs, it seems that he does not fully trust you as a "pack leader" to deal
with what he sees as a critical situation, and he acts on his own. If you
can remain calm and assertive, and take steps to break his attention to the
other dog and direct it to you, the problem will soon be solved. But it is
easier said than done.

Good luck.

Paul and Muttley
www.muttleydog.com

"Paul E. Schoen" wrote in message
news

"Dutch" wrote in message
...

"FurPaw" wrote
Dutch wrote:
I rescued this dog 6 months ago from a shelter. He is a male
Yorkie-poodle about 2 or 3. When we are out for a walk and he sees
another dog he goes absolutely nuts. I have seen two different
behaviour experts and watched every episode of the Dog Whisperer. He is
getting the total positive approach now, we feed him by hand, go out
the door first, stay calm, reward him for paying attention to us, but
one problem is that he becomes very anxious out in the world and that
leads to these loud outbursts. Nothing we have done has helped much
with this problem. We either wait until he stops then reward *that*,
and/or sometimes tether him and walk away until he settles down. The
only small clue to a possible cure is that he spent four days in the
pound a few months ago because he got away from a sitter, and that
seemed to diffuse his reactivity temporarily. I have tried introducing
him carefully to the other dog with the cooperation of the other owner,
but that only works sometimes and is also temporary, he just does a
rinse and repeat with the next dog. In an open setting running loose
with other dogs he is not nearly as bad, but he's still too excitable
to be considered social enough to be put in those situations, and if
the park is not enclosed he can sometimes just take a total runner..
The leash is what really sets his trigger though. So I'll leave it at
that for now in case anyone has an idea and has questions.

It's Me or the Dog had an episode this morning about a dog that sounds
very similar - the episode is called The Berry Bunch. Looks like it's
going to be on again Sunday 1/17 tonight (11 PM MST) - Check your local
listing for Animal Planet.

One thing she did was focus training - reinforcing the dog for focusing
on the handler, first in a calm situation, then outdoors.

Thank you for the response.

You have hit on the most common advice we have received, the question is
how to implement. Even if he is paying attention to me due to the chicken
in my hand, if he notices another dog all bets are off.

I was thinking that desensitizing him might be effective, kind of like
when Cesar Milan takes an unstable dog into his pack to get him
socialized by the influence of a lot of balanced dogs. The reason I think
that might work is because he was ignoring other dogs for a while when he
came out of the pound. Also when I got him from the shelter he wasn't as
bad as he is now.

Every expert I have consulted thinks Milan's methods are no good, but I
am open to everything.

I think there is merit in a wide range of methods. Victoria Stilwell and
her followers adhere to a rather narrow subset of methods, while CM has a
broad spectrum of tools from which to choose. An effective method must fit
the dog as well as the handler, and attitude is a huge part of the
equation.

For more specific advice and a wider audience, you should try the VS forum
which is now www.positively.com, and also the CM forum at
http://community.sessionswithcesar.com/. They are both very active and
each has their share of experts as well as newbies and people with varying
degrees of experience. For the most part, they are friendly places to hang
out and give and take ideas, but there is a strong anti-Millan sentiment
in the VS group. I was actually banned (in a previous incarnation) for
daring to criticize a couple of IMOTD episodes.

Focus on the handler is a very important basis from which most other
obedience training extends, and it can be reinforced with a clicker or
other markers. For your problem with your dog "going nuts" around other
dogs, it seems that he does not fully trust you as a "pack leader" to deal
with what he sees as a critical situation, and he acts on his own. If you
can remain calm and assertive, and take steps to break his attention to
the other dog and direct it to you, the problem will soon be solved. But
it is easier said than done.

Good luck.

Paul and Muttley
www.muttleydog.com

Thanks very much for the response Paul. I read some of your other thoughts
via your link and I think that we see things quite similarly. I have visited
the DM forums as well as Clickersolutions. The discipline method that CM
uses sometimes can bring about quick results but they don't seem to build
trust or consistency. CM also uses the positive association techniques that
all these other experts recommend exclusively. The trick is knowing when to
use which method and how to implement. Archie, our dog, displays a
combination of high excitement, anxiety, fear, and bossiness when confronted
with his triggers, which is all strange animals. He is OK with our cats. It
is next to impossible to fully keep his attention while we are walking
because other things are just more interesting than even HVT like chicken
strips. I noticed that you called offering food rewards to get attention a
"gimmick" but the advocates of positive conditioning consider it the core of
the training, associating what you want, the dog's attention, with something
*they* want. It is very tempting to think in terms of "real" dog training
being akin to "obedience to the master" but that seems to have lost favor to
the idea of a well behaved dog offering good behavior because he associates
it with what he considers good things. CM seems to be the last advocate of
"pack leadership" as a core training principle. We feed Archie by hand
because we want him to think that everything good comes through us. When we
walk, he doesn't "go sniff" at the end of the leash until we give the
command. Whenever he looks up at us during walks he gets a treat or piece of
kibble.

The challenge with Archie is that explodes when he sees another dog and
there is no effective way to intervene, sometimes I tie him to a pole and
turn my back on him until he calms down then I go back and reward the calm
behaviour. This was recommended by a behaviourist. Tugging on his harness
has little or no effect. My wife says she is sometimes able to lead him away
with HVT but distraction has not been very effective for me. The most
effective method in terms of instant results has been on the rare occasion I
have lost my patience and got down in his face and shouted with primal force
anger SHUT UP!!! In effect what I am getting him to do is fear my rage more
than whatever imagined threat he perceives in the other dog, in these cases
the submits and the walk tends to end with him following me meekly. This
does not seem right at all and I do not believe it would result in long term
good results.

I don't know, it might be just a matter of time, but it is hard to see when
there is little improvement in 6 months.

Here he is in the house, he's as cute as a button.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xfQaLefjzA

I should make a video of one of his meltdowns.

Dutch wrote:
I rescued this dog 6 months ago from a shelter. He is a male
Yorkie-poodle about 2 or 3. When we are out for a walk and he sees
another dog he goes absolutely nuts.

Well done for rescuing an unwanted dog. Whats his name?
You can desensitise him to other dogs by using a clicker.

About clicker training
http://www.clickersolutions.com/
http://www.clickersolutions.com/arti...ensitizing.htm

Alison

"Alison" wrote in message
...
Dutch wrote:
I rescued this dog 6 months ago from a shelter. He is a male
Yorkie-poodle about 2 or 3. When we are out for a walk and he sees
another dog he goes absolutely nuts.

Well done for rescuing an unwanted dog. Whats his name?

Archie http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xfQaLefjzA

You can desensitise him to other dogs by using a clicker.

About clicker training
http://www.clickersolutions.com/
http://www.clickersolutions.com/arti...ensitizing.htm

Alison

Hi Alison, I know about Clickersolutions, I posted about Archie there last
summer, and have already studied that page until I can almost recite it by
heart. Unfortunately these methods have not worked with Archie. He is an
extreme case. As soon as he sees another dog he goes ballistic instantly, no
HVT, clicking, or other forms of reward have any effect. He doesn't really
care much about food while on his walks, he is too worried about what might
happen (displays anxiety). We have had two behaviorists assess him and they
have given similar advice as you are suggesting but so far nothing has
worked. He doesn't even qualify for a reactive dog class. The only
intervention that gets through to him is unfortunately making myself a
greater threat than the other dog, and I will not do that deliberately
because I think it does more harm in the long run. Its fine to say control
the distance but we have no way to do that, other dogs just appear and
surprise us.

Dutch wrote
The challenge with Archie is that explodes when he sees another dog and
there is no effective way to intervene, sometimes I tie him to a pole and
turn my back on him until he calms down then I go back and reward the calm
behaviour.

Dutch, For some reason I can't read your posts in my Outlook Express. I'm
reading them In Google and replying here.
Did you look on Victoria Stillwels forum? I'm sure they have advice about
this using positive reinforcement.

I've walked a JR x beagle that was like this , he was a nightmare but he
has improved very much now so don't give up hope. I am lucky that our park
consists of several large fields so I picked a quiet time to walk when
possible and had enough room to move away if we saw dogs approaching. I
had to keep him on the lead and tried to keep the lead loose and tried to
relax and not get tense (that's not easy! )
I kept a distance so that he was alert to other dogs but not close enough
to over react. I clicked and treated every time he glanced away from
another dog , even if it was just for a second, and I kept repeating this
over and over just for a glance away even if he wasn't relaxed. I found he
started to look away a little longer and then more at me. I also taught him
Watch me , (make a fist and point one finger to your eye holding a treat in
your fist when he catches your eye give him the treat) that's very useful
but it need to practised at home first and then outside with no
distractions.
When he learnt to stay calm and ignore the other dog at a
reasonable distance, I was then able to approach nearer and carry on
clicking and treating. He didn't like dogs approaching directly from
behind or in front so we used to approach in a curve being ready to move
away if he became to aroused.
This takes time, he was so bad it took a couple of weeks to see any
improvement. I always went to the same park and once he was less reactive I
introduced him to other dogs one at a time by walking parallel but not too
close and C&T for quiet behaviour. After a few walks, we were able to walk
close together and then let them off the lead together. Once he got to know
them he was fine.
Alison

"Alison" wrote in message
...
Dutch wrote:
I rescued this dog 6 months ago from a shelter. He is a male
Yorkie-poodle about 2 or 3. When we are out for a walk and he sees
another dog he goes absolutely nuts.

Well done for rescuing an unwanted dog. Whats his name?
You can desensitise him to other dogs by using a clicker.

About clicker training
http://www.clickersolutions.com/
http://www.clickersolutions.com/arti...ensitizing.htm

Alison


Hi again, I didn't mention, I also read the books recommended, have Rugaas'
video, however I do not want you to get the impression I have given up, I
re-read that page again (I have it printed out somewhere) and I see some
finer points I may have missed that I think I can try again, like how to
circle, distract and treat when another dog comes into the picture, IF I can
catch it in time :)

"Alison" wrote in message
...
Dutch wrote
The challenge with Archie is that explodes when he sees another dog and
there is no effective way to intervene, sometimes I tie him to a pole and
turn my back on him until he calms down then I go back and reward the calm
behaviour.

Dutch, For some reason I can't read your posts in my Outlook Express. I'm
reading them In Google and replying here.
Did you look on Victoria Stillwels forum? I'm sure they have advice about
this using positive reinforcement.

Not yet, I will.

I've walked a JR x beagle that was like this , he was a nightmare but he
has improved very much now so don't give up hope. I am lucky that our park
consists of several large fields so I picked a quiet time to walk when
possible and had enough room to move away if we saw dogs approaching. I
had to keep him on the lead and tried to keep the lead loose and tried to
relax and not get tense (that's not easy! )
I kept a distance so that he was alert to other dogs but not close enough
to over react. I clicked and treated every time he glanced away from
another dog , even if it was just for a second, and I kept repeating this
over and over just for a glance away even if he wasn't relaxed. I found
he started to look away a little longer and then more at me. I also taught
him Watch me , (make a fist and point one finger to your eye holding a
treat in your fist when he catches your eye give him the treat) that's
very useful but it need to practised at home first and then outside with
no distractions.
When he learnt to stay calm and ignore the other dog at a
reasonable distance, I was then able to approach nearer and carry on
clicking and treating. He didn't like dogs approaching directly from
behind or in front so we used to approach in a curve being ready to move
away if he became to aroused.
This takes time, he was so bad it took a couple of weeks to see any
improvement. I always went to the same park and once he was less reactive
I introduced him to other dogs one at a time by walking parallel but not
too close and C&T for quiet behaviour. After a few walks, we were able to
walk close together and then let them off the lead together. Once he got
to know them he was fine.
Alison

Good for you Alison. I hope that our lack of success has been only to our
inability to execute the techniques correctly, they are difficult to pull
off under duress. Archie does know "Watch me", we use it to hand feed him.