"Glenn Lyford" wrote

Cash knocked her with his shoulder (not hard enough to knock
her down and didnt look like he intended to do so)

In my experience, dogs are very body-space aware. They may choose to
ignore your or another dog's personal space, but they know when they
are doing it. The hip-check and shoulder-check may look accidental,
but is all part of how the dog is taking and using that space, and at
times, controlling the body position of the other dog/human, or at
least asserting their right to do so. It can be playful, it can be
assertive, it can be aggressive, but it is rarely accidental.

Yes. My phrasing above was meant to indicate it was deliberate to bump her
and deliberate to not bump so hard as to knock her off her feet (which he
can, she weighs about 1/2 what he does).

This was after the nip on his ear and trying for the leg.

It sounds worse than it was. It was conducted with an almost playful
attitude but there were too many negatives.

Actually we were worried that they'd never be fully trustable alone all day
with just each other. Cash-pup is very gentle with a pretty much
'beagle-ish' temperment (meaning he acts mostly like what they say most
beagles as a group pretty much act like). Like all individuals, he has his
differences (doesnt 'bugle-bay' as much for one). If he were other natured,
he'd be a real problem.

As said earlier, it's 'suspected' the other half may well be bull mastiff.
He has the general long body and floppy ear of a tan beagle (not tri-color,
the other ones) and first 'impression' is beagle but if his ears were
different, you might be thinking 'oddly short legged Bull Mastiff with a bit
of a long nose'. Chest, neck, and jaw muscles particularily stand out as
'That aint no beagle'.

His favorite bones are the big 12-14 inch ones with the 6-7 inch joints on
each end and center about 3-4 inches. Only large dogs can comfortably pick
those up and walk around with them. Cash has no problem and literally eats
them (we tossed the 3-6 inch section left of the last one yesterday).

Weighed him when I came home (been trying to trim him down just a little as
we overfed and he slipped up to 61 lbs). He looks real close to 'right' at
the moment for his shape. Slightly undertucked belly, proper waist incut
then swells out to muscular legs and hips. He's 57 lbs. I mention this
only so as to prevent confusion. I refer to him as a 'beagle mix' but he's
not your standard small beagle mix sort.

Other things to watch for are the head fake, the air-nip, air-bite,
all signs that the dog is simply saying "I'm not gonna...this time,
but, you know, I could...if you push me". Again, it can be as much in
play as anything else. Then again, establishing pack order is part of
the play for them "hey, I'm having fun AND I know where I am in the
pack" (hip check, play bow, bark) "...chase me?"

Ok, I'm learning! Thank you. I knew some of that but could you tell me
more on the 'head fake'?

Hehe Cash does these with the Lab that comes over sometimes. She's an older
lab (about 9 I think) and doesnt like to play for long, but enjoys playing
for a bit as she has no dogs to play with at home. So because she blends so
well, Ben sometimes calls to drop her off for a few hours while he does
shopping or whatever. (Ben's wife is in a wheelchair and while she can let
the lab out, it's peaceful for her to have the place to herself now and
again and not have to negotiate the ramp).

Hehe it was funny once. A stranger pulled into our driveway (just checking
a map or something and turning around) and Cash started his 'bugle bayy
call'. She walked right up, looked at him, then bopped him on the head with
her chin. He shut up immediately and just 'looked at her' like ?huh? With
no muss or fuss, she is he 'grande dame' visitor who graces him with a
little play ;-)

It's the ones who go all the way to sinking in the teeth without
letting you know ahead of time that "hey, you're pushing my limits,
and I think you should know" that are especially worrying. Sometimes,
though, it's just a case of us dumb humans not paying close enough
attention and not knowing how to read the signs.

Then again a chihuahua taught Cash to 'play gentler' by biting him when Cash
accidently got too rough. It was a deliberate 'you hurt me now go easier'
and ever since, they've been famous friends with Cash being very very
careful with his little buddy. (Cash got excited at being given a doggie
biscuit and stepped on the chihuahua who bit him in the foot. Both were
fine).

I notice it with my girl dog much more than with my older male, there
is a constant test to see if you're paying attention. I'm not sure if
that's a young dog thing, a girl-dog thing, or a lab thing, or just a
dog thing in general (I suspect, the rest probably just determines the
degree).

Probably a bit of all together I imagine.

His favorite bones are the big 12-14 inch ones with the 6-7 inch joints on
each end and center about 3-4 inches. *Only large dogs can comfortably pick
those up and walk around with them. *Cash has no problem and literally eats
them (we tossed the 3-6 inch section left of the last one yesterday).

My lab has ground up a basted pig femur (about the size you describe)
to half its size in the course of an afternoon playdate, starting with
the biggest end. Unfortunately, that much marrow etc. also upsets her
stomach, so she doesn't get them anymore.

Weighed him when I came home (been trying to trim him down just a little as
we overfed and he slipped up to 61 lbs). *He looks real close to 'right' at
the moment for his shape. *Slightly undertucked belly, proper waist incut
then swells out to muscular legs and hips. *He's 57 lbs.

Well, my thoughts on dog sizes are a little skewed in relation. To me
60 lbs. is "medium", and I think of my lab at 52 lbs. as that size,
the cattle dog at 42 lbs. as medium going on small. The Akita I used
to have at 85 lbs. as "large" aka "normal dog size", and Newfs and
such at 120 or so as "very large, in a good way." Cockers are
"small", but not toy, etc. I have no idea on the rest of the world,
but it works for me. All depends on what you're used to. I love the
big dogs, but they have short lives. The Akita made it to 13, in a
breed that averages 9 or 10. I'd love to get a Bernese, but I don't
know if I can put myself through a dog getting old that fast. The big
dogs are so mellow, though, such lovable goofs...

Having a dog "small" enough (at over 50 lbs.) to fit in the lap is
novel (the cattle dog could too, but he's to independent for that
except on rare occasions).

Could you tell me more on the 'head fake'?

It's when you move your head like you're going to let your body follow
you in a particular direction, then pull it back and do something
else. A feint, a dodge, a ploy..."I'm going to bop you with my
nose...no I'm not." All part of taking and using the space around
them. It's easier to spot than a body feint, anyway.

Then again a chihuahua taught Cash to 'play gentler' by biting him when Cash
accidently got too rough. *It was a deliberate 'you hurt me now go easier'
and ever since, they've been famous friends with Cash being very very
careful with his little buddy. *(Cash got excited at being given a doggie
biscuit and stepped on the chihuahua who bit him in the foot. *Both were
fine).

Yep, that's just the way dogs set limits. "OK, that last one was a
little hard..." Something they all learn as puppies if they're raised
right with the litter and not removed too soon.

A bit of what you say about Apple sounds like a young dog learning the
ropes of being a dog. It goes on all the time, but it can still be a
rough process getting there. It isn't for everyone, especially with
the bully crosses. Raising puppies is not for the faint of heart. I
looked for a 2yo adult dog when I got the lab, and ended up with a 10
mo. adolescent puppy. Now that she's a year and a half, she's
starting to settle down. A little.

--Glenn Lyford

"Glenn Lyford" wrote

His favorite bones are the big 12-14 inch ones with the 6-7 inch joints
on

My lab has ground up a basted pig femur (about the size you describe)
to half its size in the course of an afternoon playdate, starting with
the biggest end. Unfortunately, that much marrow etc. also upsets her
stomach, so she doesn't get them anymore.

Hehee Cash takes longer fortunately with them. I get the bigger ones
because he has to work hard to 'get a proper grip' on the bitable ends so
one usually will last about 2 weeks of happy knawing here.

Weighed him when I came home (been trying to trim him down just a little
as
we overfed and he slipped up to 61 lbs). He looks real close to 'right'
at
the moment for his shape. Slightly undertucked belly, proper waist incut
then swells out to muscular legs and hips. He's 57 lbs.

BTW, we are still trimming him down a little bit more but he's pretty close
now. He's losing about 1 lb a month, maybe a little less. We didnt do
anything radical, just shifted him to a less active type dog food than he
was on. That and 1/2 a dog treat biscuit for being good, vice a whole one.

Well, my thoughts on dog sizes are a little skewed in relation. To me
60 lbs. is "medium", and I think of my lab at 52 lbs. as that size,
the cattle dog at 42 lbs. as medium going on small. The Akita I used
to have at 85 lbs. as "large" aka "normal dog size", and Newfs and
such at 120 or so as "very large, in a good way." Cockers are
"small", but not toy, etc. I have no idea on the rest of the world,
but it works for me.

It works for me and Don too as that is what we mentally picture. I'll add
that 'how tall' kicks in for me too. I think of Cash as being
'medium-large' not because of height (he's a definately medium there in my
mental view) but due to weight and bulk. I hover learned I have to get all
dog things at the petsmart in 'Large' or 'extra large' or it wont fit. Dog
collars for example and walking harnesses. (We got Cash a bit late in his
life to easily train him to proper leash and his neck is so muscular, he can
escape a collar or you cut of his breathing if you make it tighter which
obviously we didnt want to do! First harness we put him in, it was a
natural and we are guessing he was always walked that way).

All depends on what you're used to. I love the
big dogs, but they have short lives.

Yup. Cash sadly due to his heart damage (had a bad case of heartworms when
found abandoned) is not expected to live past age 7 and we were warned
before adopting him of this and it was validated by our vet after a complete
exam with EEG's, MRI's, and xrays. He has random erratic skipped beats for
example and isnt *allowed* to run long distances. His heart issues had to
resolve (as well as a tremendous need to gain weight, he was skeletal when
we got him) before he could be neutered. Even the SPCA turned him down
twice before we got him and they usually will snip anything. Finally about
5 months after we got him, our vet decided it was safer now to neuter than
to let him get excited sniffing local 'ladies in heat' nearby. They hooked
him up to have it done by the dog cardiologist/surgeon (yes, cost me bundles
but was worth it). He was laughing because he said it was neat to do such a
simple thing for a change. On a serious note, it's good we did it that way.
Cash's heart stopped once during surgery and once again just after while in
recovery. Both times it started up on it's own but the vet marked his
record that he's not to be put under unless absolutely mandated and if so,
to be sure you have a full team if there are problems.

Cash may not have long, but they will all be good years.

Could you tell me more on the 'head fake'?

It's when you move your head like you're going to let your body follow
you in a particular direction, then pull it back and do something
else. A feint, a dodge, a ploy..."I'm going to bop you with my
nose...no I'm not." All part of taking and using the space around
them. It's easier to spot than a body feint, anyway.

Ah, I understand! Yeah, play behavior seen many a time. I don't think I've
seen that one used as a 'serious' thing, only in play. If it can be used in
a serious mode, I probably just didnt recognise it as such.

Now that you have identified it, I have a name for a game that Cash plays
with Daisy-cat. Body feint. They do this all the time with each other.
What they do sounds like what you described and in their case, it is totally
and unmistakably in play mode.

Last night was a fun watch. Cash was sitting there and Daisy darted in
faking like she was gonna grab one of his toys and as he shifted to 'protect
the toy' she shiffled and grabbed the one he'd been playing than ran off to
deposit it on the other side of the room. On ensued a hilarious attempt of
him to get that one back while not letting her grab any of the others and
cart them off. So he'd run to rescue the one on the one side of the room
and she'd dart and grab another left unprotected and cart it off to the
kitchen and when he ran to the kitchen she's grab abother and run to the
other sie of the living room and so on. Plenty of body and head feint
stuff. Eventually he just plumped down grinning and happy and she did same
next to him to wait for the 'dnner bell' time.

Then again a chihuahua taught Cash to 'play gentler' by biting him when
Cash
accidently got too rough. It was a deliberate 'you hurt me now go easier'
and ever since, they've been famous friends with Cash being very very
careful with his little buddy. (Cash got excited at being given a doggie
biscuit and stepped on the chihuahua who bit him in the foot. Both were
fine).

Yep, that's just the way dogs set limits. "OK, that last one was a
little hard..." Something they all learn as puppies if they're raised
right with the litter and not removed too soon.

Yes, same with cats as kittens. Remove from litter too soon and they don't
learn properly how to 'not scratch'. Can be tought later but isn't an easy
task.

A bit of what you say about Apple sounds like a young dog learning the
ropes of being a dog. It goes on all the time, but it can still be a
rough process getting there. It isn't for everyone, especially with
the bully crosses. Raising puppies is not for the faint of heart. I
looked for a 2yo adult dog when I got the lab, and ended up with a 10
mo. adolescent puppy. Now that she's a year and a half, she's
starting to settle down. A little.

Smile, yes. Thats why Don said he really needed to think about the last
one. It was all too much 'shades of grey' on what was going on. He finally
decided based on instinct developed after almost 60 years worth of dogs,
that she *may* never fit in or be trustable with Cash.

With literally *thousands* of homeless dogs needing a home in my local area,
there was just no reason to not search further. Meantime, we are watching
Chester for the weekend. He just got 'neutered' and the other Peke in his
house was licking his stitches (caught in time so no real damage per vet) so
they had to be separated for a bit.

Chester's a normally happy go lucky frolicing Peke (pedigree too) but he's
obviously feeling a bit sore now and just sorta looking like a furry speed
bump in the carpet with a shaved ass. (snicker). We figure he stays until
at least Sunday night. If not, a few days more.

Chester's crate trained for night time and uncomfortable without his little
peke-sized 'man-cave' then, so Joe brought it when he dropped him off.

I'm getting used to the concept of crate training as is Don. Its not as bad
as our previous experinences if it's used right (and Joe does). Had a
horrific bad experinece with our MIL over them (basically overused).

cshenk wrote:

"Glenn Lyford" wrote
snip

Last night was a fun watch. Cash was sitting there and Daisy darted in
faking like she was gonna grab one of his toys and as he shifted to 'protect
the toy' she shiffled and grabbed the one he'd been playing than ran off to
deposit it on the other side of the room. On ensued a hilarious attempt of
him to get that one back while not letting her grab any of the others and
cart them off. So he'd run to rescue the one on the one side of the room
and she'd dart and grab another left unprotected and cart it off to the
kitchen and when he ran to the kitchen she's grab abother and run to the
other sie of the living room and so on. Plenty of body and head feint
stuff. Eventually he just plumped down grinning and happy and she did same
next to him to wait for the 'dnner bell' time.
snip
Reads very fun.
--
Bill Clodius
los the lost and net the pet to email