On 4/18/2010 11:10 AM, cshenk wrote:
If that's not true, then Raw
feeding may actually be a good thing. There's folks who can explain it
better and won't be mean or anything about it and won't suggest you
ignore your Vet's advice.

Most vets would not recommend feeding raw. That would mean ignoring your
vet's advice.

Char

"Char" wrote
cshenk wrote:

If that's not true, then Raw
feeding may actually be a good thing. There's folks who can explain it
better and won't be mean or anything about it and won't suggest you
ignore your Vet's advice.

Most vets would not recommend feeding raw. That would mean ignoring your
vet's advice.

Actually mine says it's fine provided it's done *right*. You'll see that in
the Behavior group. We dove off into a specific 'raw feed item' and I
forgot to ask him just which things 'wrong' he'd seen.

Logical guesses can be fun there but I don't really know what he meant in
any detail because I didn't ask. I'll try and remember to ask next time ok?
But next trip (if nothing happens) isnt until October.

On 4/18/2010 2:27 AM, Char wrote:
On 4/17/2010 9:40 PM, Marshall Lev Dermer wrote:
On 4/16/2010 8:21 AM, Char wrote:
On 4/16/2010 1:58 AM, Marshall Lev Dermer wrote:
On 3/14/2010 3:39 PM, Phil L wrote:
Char wrote:

........It could be any number of ingredients or more than one.
.......


lol

My dog is 12 years old and has been on a pea and brown rice diet or a
pea and corn diet for most of his life.

Yuk! Your dog is a carnivore. I'm surprised you haven't had problems
long ago with malnutrition.


"Your dog is a carnivore" ?

But, I just wrote that my dog is on a pea and brown rice diet.

Exactly! So why are you feeding a carnivore peas and rice?

Seems to have been effective. He is 12 years old!


"I'm surprised you haven't had problems long ago with malnutrition."

Perhaps you will have to revise your theory of
nutrition! :-)


--MLD

On 4/18/2010 10:10 AM, cshenk wrote:
"Marshall Lev Dermer" wrote

My dog is 12 years old and has been on a pea and brown rice diet or a
pea and corn diet for most of his life.

I thought this group was about canine health.

Marshall, I gather the special diet was due to a medical need of his.
That means it might be best to go to the Vet on this one. Phone call may
work even (depends on the vet). It may be that the pooch has *developed*
an allergy to one of the components in that special diet. Although
neither I nor my husband have experienced that with any of our various
dogs/cats, it's actually pretty well represented on various web sites.

I have gone to my vet, in this case a DVM/
nutritionist and she indicated that it take three
months to clear a protein from a dog's system.

Here she is:
http://vetmedicine.about.com/od/nutr...sInterview.htm

There you'll find lists of more common things for dogs to develop an
allergy to. Corn, Wheat, and Rice I have seen on those lists. I don't
recall peas but that may be just my memory. If that is the case, you'll
need to switch out what seems to be the likely offender and sub in
something else yor dog is allowed to have.

Right. That is what I have begun. I don't suspect
the peas at all for he has been on them for some 7
years but the corn is new. I was surprised when
the Vet reported it would take 3 months for the
corn protein to clear my dog's system.

It looked from the bit I saw in the thread, like meat was to be avoided
(or perhaps reduced) due to his condition? If that's not true, then Raw
feeding may actually be a good thing. There's folks who can explain it
better and won't be mean or anything about it and won't suggest you
ignore your Vet's advice. Let meknow. (PS: it's not me, and I asked my
vet about it yesterday. He said it's a good diet if followed *correctly*
and the main problem is folks not doing it right).

I don't want to feed my dog meat unless it is
necessary and it has
not been necessary in 12 years. But I thank you
for your advice.

--MLD

On 4/20/2010 12:54 AM, M Dermer wrote:
On 4/18/2010 2:27 AM, Char wrote:
On 4/17/2010 9:40 PM, Marshall Lev Dermer wrote:
On 4/16/2010 8:21 AM, Char wrote:
On 4/16/2010 1:58 AM, Marshall Lev Dermer wrote:
On 3/14/2010 3:39 PM, Phil L wrote:
Char wrote:

........It could be any number of ingredients or more than one.
.......


lol

My dog is 12 years old and has been on a pea and brown rice diet or a
pea and corn diet for most of his life.

Yuk! Your dog is a carnivore. I'm surprised you haven't had problems
long ago with malnutrition.


"Your dog is a carnivore" ?

But, I just wrote that my dog is on a pea and brown rice diet.

Exactly! So why are you feeding a carnivore peas and rice?

Seems to have been effective. He is 12 years old!


"I'm surprised you haven't had problems long ago with malnutrition."

Perhaps you will have to revise your theory of nutrition! :-)

Being 12 is no indication that there is no malnutrition. People can live
on Big Macs but it doesn't mean they are healthy.

On 4/20/2010 12:59 AM, M Dermer wrote:

I don't want to feed my dog meat unless it is necessary and it has
not been necessary in 12 years. But I thank you for your advice.

OMG!

Your dog is a carnivore. Of course it's necessary.

Poor dog!

"M Dermer" wrote
cshenk wrote:

Marshall, I gather the special diet was due to a medical need of his.
That means it might be best to go to the Vet on this one. Phone call may
work even (depends on the vet). It may be that the pooch has *developed*
an allergy to one of the components in that special diet. Although
neither I nor my husband have experienced that with any of our various
dogs/cats, it's actually pretty well represented on various web sites.

I have gone to my vet, in this case a DVM/ nutritionist and she indicated
that it take three months to clear a protein from a dog's system.

That does seem long. But I bet there is some beneft seen pretty fast if
it's an alleric response.

Here she is:
http://vetmedicine.about.com/od/nutr...sInterview.htm

Interesting read there!

There you'll find lists of more common things for dogs to develop an
allergy to. Corn, Wheat, and Rice I have seen on those lists. I don't
recall peas but that may be just my memory. If that is the case, you'll
need to switch out what seems to be the likely offender and sub in
something else yor dog is allowed to have.

Right. That is what I have begun. I don't suspect the peas at all for he
has been on them for some 7 years but the corn is new. I was surprised
when the Vet reported it would take 3 months for the corn protein to clear
my dog's system.

There ya go. Logically the 'new thing' is more apt to be the culprit.

Do you use the suppliments that the web page referred to?

It looked from the bit I saw in the thread, like meat was to be avoided
(or perhaps reduced) due to his condition? If that's not true, then Raw
feeding may actually be a good thing. There's folks who can explain it
better and won't be mean or anything about it and won't suggest you
ignore your Vet's advice. Let meknow. (PS: it's not me, and I asked my
vet about it yesterday. He said it's a good diet if followed *correctly*
and the main problem is folks not doing it right).

I don't want to feed my dog meat unless it is necessary and it has
not been necessary in 12 years. But I thank you for your advice.

No problem! I just hadn't seen a dog on a meat-free seeming diet before.
I've a friend with one on a meat-reduced one though due to a medical
condition. Her dog seems to react to the common additives (growth hormones
and antibiotics apparently) used in beef and chicken and farm raised fish.
Also something else (kidneys?) required a swap. She uses a small amount of
wild caught fish, some grain fed 'organically raised' other meats, and a
green bean/rice combo with a few other things plus a supplement. The meat
due to medical advice is no more than 20% of the volume.

If you are searching for things to add here's what I recall of her list
(some are not vegetarian so obviously ignore the ones that do not fit your
pet's needs):

Grass-fed beef- she grinds her own and mixes it in
Trout/salmon spines
tofu (warning, soy can be an allergen but her pooch doesn't have a problem
with it)
green beans (for volume, no real nutrition there)
bonemeal supplement
rice, brown
whole wheat pasta (wheat can be an allergen but again, not for this one)
grass fed beef bones for treats
whole fingerling fish
Olive oil
rendered free-range/grass fed meat fats

I gave her a recipe for pooch biscuits that fits her needs as well.

Bonemeal, whole wheat, dashi (a Japanese fish stock you can make out of a
box) and an egg. 1 part dashi, 1 part bone meal, 4 parts wheat, 1 egg, mix
then shape to 'cookies' and bake. (I actually do it by eye so the measures
may be a little off). I actually start with a cup of bonemeal and a cup of
dashi and a raw egg, then add whole wheat to the right consistency for a
thick dough. Basically a 'kibble' but with no preservatives.

Her dog has issues with corn, many preservatives, and has to go minimal on
meats. Hopefully there is something in there that will be useful to you.

On 4/20/2010 12:59 AM, M Dermer wrote:
On 4/18/2010 10:10 AM, cshenk wrote:
"Marshall Lev Dermer" wrote

My dog is 12 years old and has been on a pea and brown rice diet or a
pea and corn diet for most of his life.

I thought this group was about canine health.

Marshall, I gather the special diet was due to a medical need of his.
That means it might be best to go to the Vet on this one. Phone call may
work even (depends on the vet). It may be that the pooch has *developed*
an allergy to one of the components in that special diet. Although
neither I nor my husband have experienced that with any of our various
dogs/cats, it's actually pretty well represented on various web sites.

I have gone to my vet, in this case a DVM/ nutritionist and she
indicated that it take three months to clear a protein from a dog's system.

Here she is:
http://vetmedicine.about.com/od/nutr...sInterview.htm

I just read what she considers is a good diet and it's appalling! Here
is an example.

Chicken, white meat, cooked, roasted
Rice, white, medium-grain, cooked, unenriched
Veggie Mix
Corn oil

The only appropriate food listed is the chicken and it isn't in the best
form for the dog by any means. All the other ingredients should not be
fed to dogs. Corn oil? Ackk!

Char

On 4/20/2010 8:06 AM, cshenk wrote:
"M Dermer" wrote
cshenk wrote:

Marshall, I gather the special diet was due to a medical need of his.
That means it might be best to go to the Vet on this one. Phone call may
work even (depends on the vet). It may be that the pooch has *developed*
an allergy to one of the components in that special diet. Although
neither I nor my husband have experienced that with any of our various
dogs/cats, it's actually pretty well represented on various web sites.

I have gone to my vet, in this case a DVM/ nutritionist and she
indicated that it take three months to clear a protein from a dog's
system.

That does seem long. But I bet there is some beneft seen pretty fast if
it's an alleric response.

I would like to think a quick benefit would be
seen, but she insisted that 3 months was required.




Here she is:
http://vetmedicine.about.com/od/nutr...sInterview.htm


Interesting read there!

Yes, she has all the right credentials. Moreover,
my vet reported that about 1/2 the dogs who have
kidney stones have them again. This has not
happened with my dog on his diet. BTW my dog, Max,
and the diet were discussed years ago on this
group. Just google
my name, with the groups option and you will see
the posts.


There you'll find lists of more common things for dogs to develop an
allergy to. Corn, Wheat, and Rice I have seen on those lists. I don't
recall peas but that may be just my memory. If that is the case, you'll
need to switch out what seems to be the likely offender and sub in
something else yor dog is allowed to have.

Right. That is what I have begun. I don't suspect the peas at all for
he has been on them for some 7 years but the corn is new. I was
surprised when the Vet reported it would take 3 months for the corn
protein to clear my dog's system.

There ya go. Logically the 'new thing' is more apt to be the culprit.

Do you use the suppliments that the web page referred to?

No. They cost about 4 times the cost of using
multiple vitamins for humans. Also I don't know if
my dog will eat his food with the supplements
sprinkled on his food. But there is a price to
pay. Human multi-vitamins have Vitamin C and I
must keep my dog's urine PH close
to 7 so I must use more alkalizing agent because
of the
Vitamin C (ascorbic acid) in the human mult-vitamin.

It looked from the bit I saw in the thread, like meat was to be avoided
(or perhaps reduced) due to his condition? If that's not true, then Raw
feeding may actually be a good thing. There's folks who can explain it
better and won't be mean or anything about it and won't suggest you
ignore your Vet's advice. Let meknow. (PS: it's not me, and I asked my
vet about it yesterday. He said it's a good diet if followed *correctly*
and the main problem is folks not doing it right).

I don't want to feed my dog meat unless it is necessary and it has
not been necessary in 12 years. But I thank you for your advice.

No problem! I just hadn't seen a dog on a meat-free seeming diet before.
I've a friend with one on a meat-reduced one though due to a medical
condition. Her dog seems to react to the common additives (growth
hormones and antibiotics apparently) used in beef and chicken and farm
raised fish. Also something else (kidneys?) required a swap. She uses a
small amount of wild caught fish, some grain fed 'organically raised'
other meats, and a green bean/rice combo with a few other things plus a
supplement. The meat due to medical advice is no more than 20% of the
volume.

If you are searching for things to add here's what I recall of her list
(some are not vegetarian so obviously ignore the ones that do not fit
your pet's needs):

I feed my dog some cheese and yogurt. He also
chews on a rawhide.


Grass-fed beef- she grinds her own and mixes it in
Trout/salmon spines

He has rejected trout and salmon
tofu (warning, soy can be an allergen but her pooch doesn't have a

Soy products are high in oxalates a cause of my
dog's bladder stone problem.

problem with it)
green beans (for volume, no real nutrition there)
More oxalates in green beans

bonemeal supplement

He receives calcium supplements.

rice, brown

Right now I replaced the corn with brown rice.

whole wheat pasta (wheat can be an allergen but again, not for this one)

more oxalates

grass fed beef bones for treats

I avoid meat.

whole fingerling fish

Never tried the above.

Olive oil

He goes for this oil as well as flax seed oil.
These days
I am using salmon oil as a source of Omega 3 FAs
and DHA and EPA.

Thanks for your suggestions,

--MLD

On 4/20/2010 10:13 AM, Char wrote:

I just read what she considers is a good diet and it's appalling! Here
is an example.

Chicken, white meat, cooked, roasted
Rice, white, medium-grain, cooked, unenriched
Veggie Mix
Corn oil

The only appropriate food listed is the chicken and it isn't in the best
form for the dog by any means. All the other ingredients should not be
fed to dogs. Corn oil? Ackk!

Char

So Char how do you know your assertions about what
is right and what is wrong are correct? What kind
of data do you have or are you just going to make
snide
remarks?

--MLD