On Mon, 12 Apr 2010 15:47:55 -0700, "Wingnut"
wrote:



"Paul E. Schoen" wrote in message
...

"Alison" wrote in message
...

"sighthounds & siberians" wrote in message
...
.

I've been here since 1998 or 1999, and I don't think it's ever been as
busy as 100 a day, but definitely dozens. Not sure what venue Wingnut
is referring to; the regulars I'm thinking of are on a social
networking forum but there is very little dog discussion going on.
Wherever you go, though, if people disagree with you they're going to
tell you, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that.


I've been posting here since 2000. It used to be very busy at one time
mainly due to the "disagreements" and differences of opinion. The
Regulars might be meeting elsewhere but a fair few regulars left over the
years simply because of the unfair abuse they or others received. I miss
Roo, Helle, Leah , Diana, Patch etc . I also miss a tiny little bit ,
(heh!) Sionnach because she was nice and also Janet Boss and Tara because
sometimes their advice was good.
RPDB is nowhere near as nasty as it used to be. It's lovely coming on
here now and hopefully new people will start posting.
Alison

It does seem to have become a bit kinder and gentler. I don't remember
those in your first list (except perhaps Leah), but Sionnach, Janet, and
Tara were very active when I came on board. I admit that I had a fair
number of disagreements with them but I just wanted to express my own
opinions and do what I felt was in the best interests of me and my dog.

I also miss Diddy, who was kind enough to offer to take Muttley for NILIF
training, and actually met me and Muttley when she and Tuck did a "tricky
dog show" nearby. "Handsome Jack" who called me a Bozo but called many
others Bimbos - he left when Obama was elected. Melinda Shore. Lynn. Matt.
Sandy from OK and Broom Sandy. Marcel, who offered to collect donations
for me to take Muttley to Diddy's - he left soon after he had to rehome
his dog Moogli when he posed a danger to his new child.

They all had some good advice and strong opinions and it was interesting
to engage in debates and even heated arguments about some points. Usenet
is unique due to its lack of censorship which allows free expression of
ideas and opinions, and even nasty and vulgar talk. There was a sort of
"groupspeak" that embraced a certain mindset among most of a core of
regulars, and they often attacked newbies who dared to express a differing
point of view. They scared off many, and tried to intimidate others who
remained and chose to fight. Now perhaps they themselves have been driven
off to other venues where they might find less opposition. But I would
think it boring to restrict oneself to a group with similar ideas, rather
than engaging in more exciting discussion with those who differ in their
opinions or have new experiences and knowledge to share.

For a glimpse at the activity in this newsgroup when I became active in
2006, you may read "The Muttley Story" on the website below, which is
composed largely from posts during that year.

Oh, give it a rest, Paul. I see your little vendetta is still consuming
you.

Heh. He's the reason that at least half the regulars left rpdb.

On Mon, 12 Apr 2010 20:01:16 -0400, Char
wrote:

On 4/12/2010 5:05 PM, sighthounds & siberians wrote:
On Mon, 12 Apr 2010 16:25:12 -0400, "Paul E. Schoen"
wrote:


There was a sort of
"groupspeak" that embraced a certain mindset among most of a core of
regulars, and they often attacked newbies who dared to express a differing
point of view.

There wasn't, actually. It's a popular belief held mostly by people
whose opinions differed from most of the regulars on a particular
subject, but it's a myth.

No, it's not!

Yes, it is! Infinity! I called it!

"sighthounds & siberians" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 12 Apr 2010 15:47:55 -0700, "Wingnut"
wrote:


Oh, give it a rest, Paul. I see your little vendetta is still consuming
you.

Heh. He's the reason that at least half the regulars left rpdb.

So, my work here is almost done . Jerry claimed he would drive everyone
out of "his" forums. But if you are correct, I was actually successful. No,
I don't have a vendetta. I only want the truth to be known from my
perspective. And it is that perspective that caused me to say there was a
"groupspeak" mentality. There were squabbles among the regulars who preceded
me, but they were pretty much unified in their antagonisms toward me,
probably because I refused to bow to their attacks.

"The Muttley Story" contains the good, the bad, and the ugly. I came asking
for help, and when it was offered I accepted against my instincts and I was
shamed into it. When things blew up, all blame was put on me, even though
much later one of the regulars said it was about 75% my fault. I agree, and
it is best that this be buried and forgotten.

Fortunately Muttley is still on the green side of the dirt and the dire
predictions of mayhem have not come to pass. We should focus on the present,
plan for the future, and rejoice in our good times with our pets.

Paul and Muttley

On Mon, 12 Apr 2010 21:46:52 -0400, "Paul E. Schoen"
wrote:


"sighthounds & siberians" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 12 Apr 2010 15:47:55 -0700, "Wingnut"
wrote:


Oh, give it a rest, Paul. I see your little vendetta is still consuming
you.

Heh. He's the reason that at least half the regulars left rpdb.

So, my work here is almost done . Jerry claimed he would drive everyone
out of "his" forums. But if you are correct, I was actually successful. No,
I don't have a vendetta. I only want the truth to be known from my
perspective. And it is that perspective that caused me to say there was a
"groupspeak" mentality. There were squabbles among the regulars who preceded
me, but they were pretty much unified in their antagonisms toward me,
probably because I refused to bow to their attacks.

No, Paul, it wasn't because you refused to bow to their attacks. It
was because you made bad decisions with respect to your dog and your
cat and kept coming back and telling everyone about your bad
decisions, and yet you refused to take advice, take responsibility
for what you were doing, and stop making bad decisions. Many people
suspected that you were doing it for the attention...Munchausen by
proxy ring any bells?

All this crap about people being abused because they refused to go
along with groupspeak or "bow to their attacks" is just that: crap.
I don't think it's unreasonable for people to get pissed off if you
ask for their advice, don't follow it, and then come back and talk
about it. Time after time after time.

"The Muttley Story" contains the good, the bad, and the ugly. I came asking
for help, and when it was offered I accepted against my instincts and I was
shamed into it. When things blew up, all blame was put on me, even though
much later one of the regulars said it was about 75% my fault. I agree, and
it is best that this be buried and forgotten.

And yet you can't resist bringing it up, again, and again, and again.

"Char" wrote in message
m...
On 4/12/2010 7:41 PM, cshenk wrote:
"Char" wrote

Do you know why the rabies vaccine was made mandatory at all? I mean
really why and not just because it was transferable to humans?

I got bit in the face on Xmas eve by a dog. It ran off.

Totally not relevant.

Ever since "Old Yeller" died from "hydrophobie" we have been sensitized to
the problem of rabies. I am old enough to know people who had polio before
vaccinations nearly eradicated it. Similar ideas for ending vaccination were
posed in regards to smallpox, measles, and other childhood and adult
maladies that were thought to have been eradicated, but when compliance with
vaccinations waned, some of these diseases made comebacks, especially as
world travel has become more commonplace.

There are risks involved with anything. Life is risky and living in a bubble
will not extend the years of your life, but it will take the life out of
your years. I go with the percentages and accept risks in order to live more
fully, and I believe what does not kill you makes you stronger. But the
horrors of contracting diseases like rabies and tetanus are enough to make
me err on the side of caution. If you can absolutely guarantee that you or
your children or your pets will never interact with others in such a way as
to contract or spread a disease that is demonstrably proven to be prevented
by vaccination, then you are welcome to use your own judgment. But such a
guarantee is impossible to realize in normal society, so I think most of the
health laws are reasonable and necessary and pose a much lower risk than the
irresponsible alternative.

Paul and Muttley
www.muttleydog.com

"sighthounds & siberians" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 12 Apr 2010 21:46:52 -0400, "Paul E. Schoen"
wrote:


"sighthounds & siberians" wrote in message
. ..
On Mon, 12 Apr 2010 15:47:55 -0700, "Wingnut"
wrote:


Oh, give it a rest, Paul. I see your little vendetta is still consuming
you.

Heh. He's the reason that at least half the regulars left rpdb.

So, my work here is almost done . Jerry claimed he would drive everyone
out of "his" forums. But if you are correct, I was actually successful.
No,
I don't have a vendetta. I only want the truth to be known from my
perspective. And it is that perspective that caused me to say there was a
"groupspeak" mentality. There were squabbles among the regulars who
preceded
me, but they were pretty much unified in their antagonisms toward me,
probably because I refused to bow to their attacks.

No, Paul, it wasn't because you refused to bow to their attacks. It
was because you made bad decisions with respect to your dog and your
cat and kept coming back and telling everyone about your bad
decisions, and yet you refused to take advice, take responsibility
for what you were doing, and stop making bad decisions. Many people
suspected that you were doing it for the attention...Munchausen by
proxy ring any bells?

Everyone who posts on public fora such as newsgroups enjoys attention.
That's even true for dogs, who often crave attention, and will present
unwanted behavior that earns them even unpleasant attention because it is
better than being ignored, which is a favorite of "positive" trainers like
Victoria Stilwell. I was never ignored, and I had some positive responses
among the many attacks. I frankly enjoyed many of the arguments, especially
when I knew I was right. And many arguments were not even remotely related
to dogs.

All this crap about people being abused because they refused to go
along with groupspeak or "bow to their attacks" is just that: crap.
I don't think it's unreasonable for people to get pissed off if you
ask for their advice, don't follow it, and then come back and talk
about it. Time after time after time.

I was simply being truthful and open. I was not ashamed to describe things
in detail, even if they were not pleasant. And perhaps my writing style was
a bit too "theatrical" or dramatic. After the ineffective dog training I
attempted, I don't recall asking for much advice. I talked about good and
not so good experiences, but most of the advice was unsolicited and I took
the option of not following it. And I don't recall any really bad decisions,
and I corrected any problems that actually arose.

"The Muttley Story" contains the good, the bad, and the ugly. I came
asking
for help, and when it was offered I accepted against my instincts and I
was
shamed into it. When things blew up, all blame was put on me, even though
much later one of the regulars said it was about 75% my fault. I agree,
and
it is best that this be buried and forgotten.

And yet you can't resist bringing it up, again, and again, and again.

No, I simply provided the story as an example of the high level of activity
on RPDB at that time. And I think it also provides a bit of insight into the
"groupspeak" phenomenon as I experienced it.

P&M

On Mon, 12 Apr 2010 22:36:44 -0400, "Paul E. Schoen"
wrote:


"sighthounds & siberians" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 12 Apr 2010 21:46:52 -0400, "Paul E. Schoen"
wrote:


"sighthounds & siberians" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 12 Apr 2010 15:47:55 -0700, "Wingnut"
wrote:


Oh, give it a rest, Paul. I see your little vendetta is still consuming
you.

Heh. He's the reason that at least half the regulars left rpdb.

So, my work here is almost done . Jerry claimed he would drive everyone
out of "his" forums. But if you are correct, I was actually successful.
No,
I don't have a vendetta. I only want the truth to be known from my
perspective. And it is that perspective that caused me to say there was a
"groupspeak" mentality. There were squabbles among the regulars who
preceded
me, but they were pretty much unified in their antagonisms toward me,
probably because I refused to bow to their attacks.

No, Paul, it wasn't because you refused to bow to their attacks. It
was because you made bad decisions with respect to your dog and your
cat and kept coming back and telling everyone about your bad
decisions, and yet you refused to take advice, take responsibility
for what you were doing, and stop making bad decisions. Many people
suspected that you were doing it for the attention...Munchausen by
proxy ring any bells?

Everyone who posts on public fora such as newsgroups enjoys attention.

I think that's debatable, but in any case, attention is certainly not
the reason that everyone who posts on public fora does so.

That's even true for dogs, who often crave attention, and will present
unwanted behavior that earns them even unpleasant attention because it is
better than being ignored, which is a favorite of "positive" trainers like
Victoria Stilwell. I was never ignored, and I had some positive responses
among the many attacks. I frankly enjoyed many of the arguments, especially
when I knew I was right. And many arguments were not even remotely related
to dogs.

All this crap about people being abused because they refused to go
along with groupspeak or "bow to their attacks" is just that: crap.
I don't think it's unreasonable for people to get pissed off if you
ask for their advice, don't follow it, and then come back and talk
about it. Time after time after time.

I was simply being truthful and open. I was not ashamed to describe things
in detail, even if they were not pleasant. And perhaps my writing style was
a bit too "theatrical" or dramatic. After the ineffective dog training I
attempted, I don't recall asking for much advice. I talked about good and
not so good experiences, but most of the advice was unsolicited and I took
the option of not following it. And I don't recall any really bad decisions,
and I corrected any problems that actually arose.

"The Muttley Story" contains the good, the bad, and the ugly. I came
asking
for help, and when it was offered I accepted against my instincts and I
was
shamed into it. When things blew up, all blame was put on me, even though
much later one of the regulars said it was about 75% my fault. I agree,
and
it is best that this be buried and forgotten.

And yet you can't resist bringing it up, again, and again, and again.

No, I simply provided the story as an example of the high level of activity
on RPDB at that time. And I think it also provides a bit of insight into the
"groupspeak" phenomenon as I experienced it.

All right; we're never going to agree on this subject, and I suppose
that's understandable. Let's leave it in the past, now, shall we?

I am glad that Muttley is doing well.

Paul E. Schoen wrote:

[...]

Everyone who posts on public fora such as newsgroups enjoys attention.
That's even true for dogs [...]

Wow! Dogs posting on public fora. I am impressed. Natasha hasn't
progressed past p-mail...

"Dogman" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 12 Apr 2010 17:05:25 -0400, sighthounds & siberians
wrote:

There really was no cabal.

Sure there was.

If a cabal is defined as "a small group of secret plotters," there was
a cabal. For example, the cabal that encouraged many of the old-timers
to leave Usenet and head for places like Facebook, MySpace, etc,
where, unlike here, they could censor and ban those they didn't like
or disagreed with.
--
Dogman


So this is your work? Well done!
http://home.i1.net/~dogman/trolls.html

Mostly they can stroke each others' egos.

Hmmm. Where are Cesar Millan and Victoria Stilwell? I've read Koehler and
Kilcommons.
http://home.i1.net/~dogman/books.htm

Seeya in your den:
http://home.i1.net/~dogman/den.htm

Paul and Muttley
www.muttleydog.com

"Paul E. Schoen" wrote
"cshenk" wrote

I started posting here in 2006 when I got Muttley, and the NG was very
active. It seems that the activity started to decline in late 2008 and
really dropped in the summer of 2009. Some of the regulars pop in from
time

You'd have seen me in 2007/2008 then. Probably a small blip in your radar
(grin). I was also in before my 6.5 years in Japan (pretty sure) but mostly
a silent reader. If it wasnt the same group, it *seemed* the one to rejoin
from back in late 2000/2001 that I had been reading.

The forums I have found worthwhile are www.dogsey.com (general forum,
mostly UK), www.positively.com (Victoria Stilwell-IMOTD),
http://community.sessionswithcesar.com/forums/ (Cesar Millan-Dog
Whisperer), and http://dogtrainersnetwork.ning.com/ (Lee Charles Kelley).
Some of these are more focused than others, and there is some moderation
and censorship,

Bless you! I have a local lady here and am afraid to recommend this group
for support for her issues. She's gonna get flamed but she's just an
unknowing new person who took in a recue mixed pit and has a mostly blind
cat that didnt fall in love with the dog right away so she was thinking to
give the cat up to a new home. I can *imagine* the comments she'd get.

Grin, face it, she probably muffed up there but without more details, local
folks are trying to help her. I sent a pretty long basic email on what to
look for to see if the cat is safe and asked her to post it to our local
area forum with the best answer she has, so others can add in what I missed.

In an earlier day I would have asked her to join here and said we can help
you figure it all out.

I'll save those links for me as well.

but mostly you can say what you believe if you are civil about it. But

Grin, normally not an issue for me. I think the last time I got 'moderated'
was when I used vegetarian soy sauce in a recipe in a vegan recipe group.
oops. Didnt know it wasnt vegan.

Paul&Muttley were actually banned from the VS forum so we had to be
reincarnated in another persona. The "Positive" camp can be dogmatically
religious about their views and will not allow any discussion of forceful
methods or concepts such as dominance and pack leadership.

Interesting! How can you properly discuss dogs without dealing with the
'alpha' situation? For example, one reason why Daisy-chan gets along so
well with Cash-pup is he's willing to just grin and let her be 'alpha'
(except at feeding time, he's a chow hound but he will let her steal 1 or 2
kibble sometimes).

articles, and personal profile information. But I believe usenet also has
its place and the text-only format encourages content over glitz and
glitter. I think some of the people who had been regulars here have
migrated

I agree. If i need pics, a postd link works just fine. (My but i like
muttley!)

Ultimately it comes down to how much time one wants to spend on-line and
how

Exactly. I don't have time for volumes or clicking the way forums generally
require to read a thread.