On Sat, 03 Apr 2010 23:54:37 -0400, Char
wrote:

Many inaccurate and misleading things, including:
The biggest expense is vet bills

Only if you feed a commercial crap in a bag.

Please provide cites that only dogs fed commercial dog food incur vet
expenses.

- not so much the yearly well dog
visits, vaccinations, heartworm check and preventative, but unforeseen
illnesses.

Which happen much less frequently when feeding a species appropriate diet.

Cites, please.

The only thing you can do for that is to have a little
savings account or purchase insurance. I have no idea what vet bills
run in California, but you might want to contact a local vet or two
and ask what the cost would be for the annual exam, vaccinations,

Which cause illnesses too.
http://www.dogsadversereactions.com/...ineDamage.html

So does not vaccinating at all.

heartworm test and preventative,

A preventative is not needed for a raw fed dog.

Please provide cites - that is, evidence, or proof (not anecdotes or
made-up stuff) that feeding a raw diet makes dogs immune to heartworm.

And raw fed dogs tend to have less or no fleas anyway.

Cites, please.

Ask
about spay/neuter cost too, as you'll want to have that done.

It has it's risks like any surgery and some choose not to have it done
at all.
http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongT...uterInDogs.pdf
http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/dvm.../detail/646838

Yes, it has its risks. For the average pet owner, however, it's still
the best choice.

New pet owners, beware of people like Char who make sweeping,
unsubstantiated statements like those in this post as though they are
fact.

sighthounds & siberians wrote:
On Sat, 03 Apr 2010 23:54:37 -0400, Char
wrote:

Many inaccurate and misleading things, including:
The biggest expense is vet bills
Only if you feed a commercial crap in a bag.

Please provide cites that only dogs fed commercial dog food incur vet
expenses.

I don't often (ever?) agree with anything Char says, but this is a
fallacy that should be corrected. All Char says is that if you feed
cheap food, the vet bills *may* exceed the food bills. Switch to a more
expensive food and, guess what? Vet bills will not be the most expensive
item on the budget any more. That does not need a whole lot of
justification.

On Mon, 05 Apr 2010 06:26:38 -0300, Gus Gassmann
wrote:

sighthounds & siberians wrote:
On Sat, 03 Apr 2010 23:54:37 -0400, Char
wrote:

Many inaccurate and misleading things, including:
The biggest expense is vet bills
Only if you feed a commercial crap in a bag.

Please provide cites that only dogs fed commercial dog food incur vet
expenses.

I don't often (ever?) agree with anything Char says, but this is a
fallacy that should be corrected. All Char says is that if you feed
cheap food, the vet bills *may* exceed the food bills.

Read it again. What she said is that a dog owner's biggest expense is
vet bills "only if you feed commercial crap in a bag". She doesn't
say cheap food. I've been reading her spewage here long enough to be
pretty sure that Char believes any kibble is crap in a bag. For
instance, I feed Canidae; which I think to her is the same as Ol' Roy.

Switch to a more
expensive food and, guess what? Vet bills will not be the most expensive
item on the budget any more. That does not need a whole lot of
justification.

I agree. However, I don't think that's what Char was saying. To her,
anything other than a raw diet is commercial crap in a bag and is
responsible for all kinds of health problems.

On 4/5/2010 5:26 AM, Gus Gassmann wrote:
sighthounds & siberians wrote:
On Sat, 03 Apr 2010 23:54:37 -0400, Char
wrote:

Many inaccurate and misleading things, including:
The biggest expense is vet bills
Only if you feed a commercial crap in a bag.

Please provide cites that only dogs fed commercial dog food incur vet
expenses.

I don't often (ever?) agree with anything Char says, but this is a
fallacy that should be corrected. All Char says is that if you feed
cheap food, the vet bills *may* exceed the food bills. Switch to a more
expensive food and, guess what? Vet bills will not be the most expensive
item on the budget any more. That does not need a whole lot of
justification.

But feeding raw is way cheaper than any expensive kibble.

On 4/5/2010 10:37 AM, sighthounds & siberians wrote:
On Mon, 05 Apr 2010 06:26:38 -0300, Gus Gassmann
wrote:

sighthounds& siberians wrote:
On Sat, 03 Apr 2010 23:54:37 -0400,
wrote:

Many inaccurate and misleading things, including:
The biggest expense is vet bills
Only if you feed a commercial crap in a bag.

Please provide cites that only dogs fed commercial dog food incur vet
expenses.

I don't often (ever?) agree with anything Char says, but this is a
fallacy that should be corrected. All Char says is that if you feed
cheap food, the vet bills *may* exceed the food bills.

Read it again. What she said is that a dog owner's biggest expense is
vet bills "only if you feed commercial crap in a bag". She doesn't
say cheap food. I've been reading her spewage here long enough to be
pretty sure that Char believes any kibble is crap in a bag. For
instance, I feed Canidae; which I think to her is the same as Ol' Roy.

Stop thinking so much. You don't get it right anyway. Ol Roy is garbage
but Canidae is just one step up. Let's go over the ingredients and I
will show you why. Your dog food is nothing more than a little meat and
surrounding it with veggies and fruits, all of which add many carbs, are
leftovers from human food manufacturing and only added because they are
cheap, not for the health of the dog. It's cooked so long they have to
add nutrients back in to make up for their loss.

Beef- Very good! It goes downhill from here though.

Beef meal- It is a byproduct made from beef parts which are not suitable
for human consumption and used in pet foods. It can incorporate the
entire cow, including the bones, but the quality cuts of meat are always
removed. This is an inexpensive, low quality ingredient used to boost
the protein percentage.

Chicken meal, Turkey meal, lamb meal, salmon meal, fish meal- Same as
above. It is leftovers from human food and it's nothing I'd feed my dog.

Lamb meat- Listed below many of the meals which means there isn't much
in it. Otherwise a good ingredient.

Brown and white rice- Full of carbohydrates and not needed by dogs at
all. Indeed it can cause Candida problems, ear infections, etc. It's
added merely as a filler. It has no nutritional use in dogs.

Rice Bran- The high oil content of bran makes it subject to
rancidification, one of the reasons that is often separated from the
grain before storage or further processing. IOW, it's another leftover
from human food.

Oatmeal, Barley, Peas, Potatoes, Millet- Carbohydrates which dogs don't
need and cause problems. This food has a *lot* of carb fillers in it!

Tomato Pumace- An inexpensive by-product of tomato manufacturing.
Effectively, it is what is left-over after processing tomatoes for
juice, ketchup, soup, etc. IOW, another food left over from human food
manufacturing.

Flax seed meal- Definitely causes allergies in dogs, and frequently.

Rosemary- Causes seizures in dogs.

Many more carbs are listed and none are necessary for a dog to be
healthy. Vitamins and minerals are added to make up for cooking the food
so long that any nutritional value it had is about gone.


Switch to a more
expensive food and, guess what? Vet bills will not be the most expensive
item on the budget any more. That does not need a whole lot of
justification.

I agree. However, I don't think that's what Char was saying. To her,
anything other than a raw diet is commercial crap in a bag and is
responsible for all kinds of health problems.

Some more than others of course.

On Mon, 05 Apr 2010 12:42:51 -0400, Char
wrote:


Read it again. What she said is that a dog owner's biggest expense is
vet bills "only if you feed commercial crap in a bag". She doesn't
say cheap food. I've been reading her spewage here long enough to be
pretty sure that Char believes any kibble is crap in a bag. For
instance, I feed Canidae; which I think to her is the same as Ol' Roy.

Stop thinking so much. You don't get it right anyway. Ol Roy is garbage
but Canidae is just one step up. Let's go over the ingredients and I
will show you why. Your dog food is nothing more than a little meat and
surrounding it with veggies and fruits, all of which add many carbs, are
leftovers from human food manufacturing and only added because they are
cheap, not for the health of the dog. It's cooked so long they have to
add nutrients back in to make up for their loss.

Beef- Very good! It goes downhill from here though.

It's a waste of time to attempt to converse with you. You're nasty
and insulting and you can't stop youself from spouting falsehoods.
But I'm going to point out your errors in just a couple of areas here,
to demonstrate that saying something doesn't make it true. As has
been suggested to you many times before, you'd be a much better
advocate for raw feeding if you didn't spout so much bullshit about
commercial foods.

Beef meal- It is a byproduct made from beef parts which are not suitable
for human consumption and used in pet foods. It can incorporate the
entire cow, including the bones, but the quality cuts of meat are always
removed. This is an inexpensive, low quality ingredient used to boost
the protein percentage.

You are mistaken. It would be true of beef byproduct meal; it is not
true of beef meal. You need to do some research on terms used in the
ingredient lists of pet food, the definitions of which are mandated (I
believe by AAFCO but I could be wrong) and not left up to the
individual company.

Chicken meal, Turkey meal, lamb meal, salmon meal, fish meal- Same as
above. It is leftovers from human food and it's nothing I'd feed my dog.

Meals are not leftovers from human food. Chicken meal, turkey meal,
salmon meal and fish meal are simply meats from which the moisture is
removed.

Lamb meat- Listed below many of the meals which means there isn't much
in it. Otherwise a good ingredient.

A pet food whose first ingredient is meat meal contains more meat than
a pet food whose first ingredient is chicken, because the chicken
includes moisture.

Brown and white rice- Full of carbohydrates and not needed by dogs at
all. Indeed it can cause Candida problems, ear infections, etc. It's
added merely as a filler. It has no nutritional use in dogs.

Rice Bran- The high oil content of bran makes it subject to
rancidification, one of the reasons that is often separated from the
grain before storage or further processing. IOW, it's another leftover
from human food.

Oatmeal, Barley, Peas, Potatoes, Millet- Carbohydrates which dogs don't
need and cause problems.

See, saying that carbohydrates cause problems in dogs is one of those
statements of yours that is so broad and sweeping that it is
meaningless.

This food has a *lot* of carb fillers in it!

Wrong again!

Tomato Pumace- An inexpensive by-product of tomato manufacturing.
Effectively, it is what is left-over after processing tomatoes for
juice, ketchup, soup, etc. IOW, another food left over from human food
manufacturing.

I think you mean pomace.

Flax seed meal- Definitely causes allergies in dogs, and frequently.

Dogs can be allergic to anything. The fact that a dog can be allergic
to something is not the same as saying that something frequently
causes allergies in dogs.

Rosemary- Causes seizures in dogs.

See above; the fact that something can cause seizures in dogs is not
the same as saying that it causes seizures in dogs.

My dogs have eaten various Canidae formulas for years. None of them
has food allergies of any kind, or ever has, and none of them has
seizures. Using your method of reasoning, that is proof that what you
said isn't true and what I said is.

On 4/5/2010 1:24 PM, sighthounds & siberians wrote:
On Mon, 05 Apr 2010 12:42:51 -0400,
wrote:


Read it again. What she said is that a dog owner's biggest expense is
vet bills "only if you feed commercial crap in a bag". She doesn't
say cheap food. I've been reading her spewage here long enough to be
pretty sure that Char believes any kibble is crap in a bag. For
instance, I feed Canidae; which I think to her is the same as Ol' Roy.

Stop thinking so much. You don't get it right anyway. Ol Roy is garbage
but Canidae is just one step up. Let's go over the ingredients and I
will show you why. Your dog food is nothing more than a little meat and
surrounding it with veggies and fruits, all of which add many carbs, are
leftovers from human food manufacturing and only added because they are
cheap, not for the health of the dog. It's cooked so long they have to
add nutrients back in to make up for their loss.

Beef- Very good! It goes downhill from here though.

It's a waste of time to attempt to converse with you. You're nasty
and insulting and you can't stop youself from spouting falsehoods.
But I'm going to point out your errors in just a couple of areas here,
to demonstrate that saying something doesn't make it true. As has
been suggested to you many times before, you'd be a much better
advocate for raw feeding if you didn't spout so much bullshit about
commercial foods.

Beef meal- It is a byproduct made from beef parts which are not suitable
for human consumption and used in pet foods. It can incorporate the
entire cow, including the bones, but the quality cuts of meat are always
removed. This is an inexpensive, low quality ingredient used to boost
the protein percentage.

You are mistaken. It would be true of beef byproduct meal; it is not
true of beef meal. You need to do some research on terms used in the
ingredient lists of pet food, the definitions of which are mandated (I
believe by AAFCO but I could be wrong) and not left up to the
individual company.

Here is AAFCO's definition of meat meal. Meat Meal - the rendered
product from mammal tissues, exclusive of blood, hair, hoof, horn, hide
trimmings, manure, stomach and rumen contents except in such amounts as
may occur unavoidably in good processing practices.

Rendering is the process for separating fats from other organic
materials. So, by their definition it is the leftovers after cooking to
remove the fat. Rendered dog food can and does contain dead pets,
roadkill and dead cattle too.

It seems you are the one that needs to do some reading. Try it!
http://www.healthy-holistic-living.c...-pet-food.html


Chicken meal, Turkey meal, lamb meal, salmon meal, fish meal- Same as
above. It is leftovers from human food and it's nothing I'd feed my dog.

Meals are not leftovers from human food. Chicken meal, turkey meal,
salmon meal and fish meal are simply meats from which the moisture is
removed.

You been living under a rock or what?
http://www.bornfreeusa.org/facts.php?more=1&p=359
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0106-03.htm


Lamb meat- Listed below many of the meals which means there isn't much
in it. Otherwise a good ingredient.

A pet food whose first ingredient is meat meal contains more meat than
a pet food whose first ingredient is chicken, because the chicken
includes moisture.

Brown and white rice- Full of carbohydrates and not needed by dogs at
all. Indeed it can cause Candida problems, ear infections, etc. It's
added merely as a filler. It has no nutritional use in dogs.

Rice Bran- The high oil content of bran makes it subject to
rancidification, one of the reasons that is often separated from the
grain before storage or further processing. IOW, it's another leftover
from human food.

Oatmeal, Barley, Peas, Potatoes, Millet- Carbohydrates which dogs don't
need and cause problems.

See, saying that carbohydrates cause problems in dogs is one of those
statements of yours that is so broad and sweeping that it is
meaningless.

You'd love it to be meaningless but you haven't done your homework. The
more expensive the kibble, the less carbs it has in general, like this one.
http://dog-health-problems.org/orijen_dog_food.php

Don't you wonder why?

There are so many dogs and cats who have become healthy after removing
or at least severely reducing carbs.



This food has a *lot* of carb fillers in it!

Wrong again!

Read it again, look at the ingredients on your bag of kibble. They are
in order of predominance. If you add up all the carbs it's way higher
than the amount of protein.


Tomato Pumace- An inexpensive by-product of tomato manufacturing.
Effectively, it is what is left-over after processing tomatoes for
juice, ketchup, soup, etc. IOW, another food left over from human food
manufacturing.

I think you mean pomace.

Flax seed meal- Definitely causes allergies in dogs, and frequently.

Dogs can be allergic to anything. The fact that a dog can be allergic
to something is not the same as saying that something frequently
causes allergies in dogs.

Exactly! And it frequently causes allergy problems in dogs.


Rosemary- Causes seizures in dogs.

See above; the fact that something can cause seizures in dogs is not
the same as saying that it causes seizures in dogs.

It causes seizures in dogs. It happens way too often IMHO. Play word
games all you want.


My dogs have eaten various Canidae formulas for years. None of them
has food allergies of any kind, or ever has, and none of them has
seizures. Using your method of reasoning, that is proof that what you
said isn't true and what I said is.

My method of reasoning isn't what you want it to be, sorry! When I post
facts you try and change what I post to make it something to argue over.
Do it all you want to, it doesn't change the facts.

If carbs don't hurt dogs why did Canidae change to a lower carb formula
in 2008? And why were there so many problems reported with the new
formula? It wasn't because the carbs were reduced!

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/pets/canidae.html
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news0...ecalls106.html

On Mon, 05 Apr 2010 14:18:46 -0400, Char
wrote:

On 4/5/2010 1:24 PM, sighthounds & siberians wrote:
On Mon, 05 Apr 2010 12:42:51 -0400,
wrote:


Read it again. What she said is that a dog owner's biggest expense is
vet bills "only if you feed commercial crap in a bag". She doesn't
say cheap food. I've been reading her spewage here long enough to be
pretty sure that Char believes any kibble is crap in a bag. For
instance, I feed Canidae; which I think to her is the same as Ol' Roy.

Stop thinking so much. You don't get it right anyway. Ol Roy is garbage
but Canidae is just one step up. Let's go over the ingredients and I
will show you why. Your dog food is nothing more than a little meat and
surrounding it with veggies and fruits, all of which add many carbs, are
leftovers from human food manufacturing and only added because they are
cheap, not for the health of the dog. It's cooked so long they have to
add nutrients back in to make up for their loss.

Beef- Very good! It goes downhill from here though.

It's a waste of time to attempt to converse with you. You're nasty
and insulting and you can't stop youself from spouting falsehoods.
But I'm going to point out your errors in just a couple of areas here,
to demonstrate that saying something doesn't make it true. As has
been suggested to you many times before, you'd be a much better
advocate for raw feeding if you didn't spout so much bullshit about
commercial foods.

Beef meal- It is a byproduct made from beef parts which are not suitable
for human consumption and used in pet foods. It can incorporate the
entire cow, including the bones, but the quality cuts of meat are always
removed. This is an inexpensive, low quality ingredient used to boost
the protein percentage.

You are mistaken. It would be true of beef byproduct meal; it is not
true of beef meal. You need to do some research on terms used in the
ingredient lists of pet food, the definitions of which are mandated (I
believe by AAFCO but I could be wrong) and not left up to the
individual company.

Here is AAFCO's definition of meat meal. Meat Meal - the rendered
product from mammal tissues, exclusive of blood, hair, hoof, horn, hide
trimmings, manure, stomach and rumen contents except in such amounts as
may occur unavoidably in good processing practices.

We weren't talking about meat meal, though, and I wouldn't feed a
product with meat meal as an ingredient because I wouldn't know where
it came from. Also, you will notice that where you said beef meal can
incorporate the entire cow, by AAFCO's definition, that is incorrect.

Rendering is the process for separating fats from other organic
materials. So, by their definition it is the leftovers after cooking to
remove the fat. Rendered dog food can and does contain dead pets,
roadkill and dead cattle too.

Sure, if you buy a low-end brand. I don't, so the food I feed does
not contain dead pets or roadkill. I assume that all beef contained
in dog food is from dead cattle.

It seems you are the one that needs to do some reading. Try it!
http://www.healthy-holistic-living.c...-pet-food.html

I have done lots of reading on this subject, thanks.


Chicken meal, Turkey meal, lamb meal, salmon meal, fish meal- Same as
above. It is leftovers from human food and it's nothing I'd feed my dog.

Meals are not leftovers from human food. Chicken meal, turkey meal,
salmon meal and fish meal are simply meats from which the moisture is
removed.

You been living under a rock or what?
http://www.bornfreeusa.org/facts.php?more=1&p=359
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0106-03.htm

No, I haven't. I see you can't resist being insulting again. I don't
usually get my "facts" from sources like bornfreeusa, but these sites
don't contain anything I haven't read.

You'd love it to be meaningless but you haven't done your homework. The
more expensive the kibble, the less carbs it has in general, like this one.

No ****, Sherlock.

My dogs have eaten various Canidae formulas for years. None of them
has food allergies of any kind, or ever has, and none of them has
seizures. Using your method of reasoning, that is proof that what you
said isn't true and what I said is.

My method of reasoning isn't what you want it to be, sorry! When I post
facts you try and change what I post to make it something to argue over.
Do it all you want to, it doesn't change the facts.

Here's some news for you: you saying something doesn't make it a
fact.

If carbs don't hurt dogs why did Canidae change to a lower carb formula
in 2008? And why were there so many problems reported with the new
formula? It wasn't because the carbs were reduced!

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/pets/canidae.html
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news0...ecalls106.html

I've read that stuff. I *definitely* don't get my "facts" from
lawsuits run by plaintiff's lawyers, and I'm pretty sure I'm more
aware of all the hoopla surrounding the formula changes than you are.
Some dogs experienced problems with the new formula because it was a
formula change and some dogs are sensitive to any changes in their
diets. My dogs didn't have any problems with the changeover. There
have been no recalls of Canidae foods.

You can keep spewing bullshit; I don't have time for it anymore.
Hopefully anyone with two brain cells to rub together can see the
biased, unreliable nature of where you get your "facts" and that you
don't know the difference between "anecdote" and "evidence".

"Char" wrote in message
m...
On 4/5/2010 5:26 AM, Gus Gassmann wrote:
sighthounds & siberians wrote:
On Sat, 03 Apr 2010 23:54:37 -0400, Char
wrote:

Many inaccurate and misleading things, including:
The biggest expense is vet bills
Only if you feed a commercial crap in a bag.

Please provide cites that only dogs fed commercial dog food incur vet
expenses.

I don't often (ever?) agree with anything Char says, but this is a
fallacy that should be corrected. All Char says is that if you feed
cheap food, the vet bills *may* exceed the food bills. Switch to a more
expensive food and, guess what? Vet bills will not be the most expensive
item on the budget any more. That does not need a whole lot of
justification.

But feeding raw is way cheaper than any expensive kibble.

I think it is reasonable to feed a combination of foods. Muttley does well
on a diet of inexpensive (but not the cheapest) kibble, with generous
additions of raw beef hearts and marrow bones. He is generally healthy and
he seems to enjoy his meals.

Raw beef hearts seem to be the best value at $1.39/lb and sometimes less,
with almost no fat. I tried cheek meat (about the same price) but it was
full of gristle and fat and was very difficult to cut up into smaller
chunks. Marrow bones at $0.99/lb are good because he will spend quite a
while chewing out the marrow and the edges of the bone, but there is not
much meat on them. He also gets small quantities of human food, except for
known poisons such as chocolate, grapes, and onions. I also give him
rawhide, which he chews thoroughly, and various dog biscuits, which appear
to be made from fairly good ingredients.

Muttley had a good visit to the vet's on Friday, and was determined to be
negative for heartworms, but was given a heartworm preventative because of
increasing numbers of cases in the area. He also got boosters for various
items such as Lyme disease. And the vet said his teeth looked good, but
there was some tartar on the outsides, so she showed me how I could brush
them. This routine annual visit cost about $270, which seemed a bit much,
but he's worth it. I figure the cost for his food is probably about the same
as his vet bills, and maybe a bit more.

Paul and Muttley
www.muttleydog.com

On 4/5/2010 2:58 PM, sighthounds & siberians wrote:

You can keep spewing bullshit; I don't have time for it anymore.
Hopefully anyone with two brain cells to rub together can see the
biased, unreliable nature of where you get your "facts" and that you
don't know the difference between "anecdote" and "evidence".


You posted anecdotes and I posted evidence. Simple!