"Paul E. Schoen" wrote

"caroline" wrote

"cshenk" wrote
"caroline" wrote
"cshenk" wrote

Seeing as the Springer set-up won't work with your bicycle....google
'bikejoring' and see if that suits you guys better....it doesn't have
to be flat out racing speed, just go at whatever speed you're both most
comfortable with.

I bikejor with a GSP-x and a Collie-x, and we all love it!

Got it! The one that attaches to the back wheel is perfect. Thanks so
much!

Now I'm very confused.....bikejoring is a *sport*, not an
attachment....and I would definitely not go bikejoring with either of my
two attached to the rear of my bike :-)

From what I saw in the Wiki, bikejoring has the dog(s) pulling the bike
from the handlebars, and they are ahead of the bike like sled dogs. There
was also a reference to WalkyDog:

No and Yes ;-)

No...attaching the gangline to the handlebars would also be suicidal,
ideally it should be attached to the front of the frame, just below where
the handlebars slot in - so you still have total control over the steering.
I use an home-made antenna to keep the gangline clear of the front
wheel/brake-setup too.

And Yes...the dogs pull from the front, like sled dogs...it's one of the
dryland/urban mushing sports.

You do need to do some ground work with the dog, so you have some control
over their speed & direction....but other than that, hook-up and have fun!

I use x-back harnesses on both my dogs....and have proper single & double
ganglines with a bungee/shock cord section & strong quick release
clips/carabineers (sp?), depending on if I'm running 1 dog or both dogs.

I don't know if you have tried this but it might work or you could modify the idea to work for your bike.

__________________
Dog Barking Problems and Their Solutions

"caroline" wrote
"Paul E. Schoen" wrote
"cshenk" wrote

Caroline said:
Seeing as the Springer set-up won't work with your bicycle....google
'bikejoring' and see if that suits you guys better....it doesn't have
to be flat out racing speed, just go at whatever speed you're both
most comfortable with.

I bikejor with a GSP-x and a Collie-x, and we all love it!

Carol said:
Got it! The one that attaches to the back wheel is perfect. Thanks so
much!

Caroline said:
Now I'm very confused.....bikejoring is a *sport*, not an
attachment....and I would definitely not go bikejoring with either of my
two attached to the rear of my bike :-)

Paul said:
From what I saw in the Wiki, bikejoring has the dog(s) pulling the bike
from the handlebars, and they are ahead of the bike like sled dogs. There
was also a reference to WalkyDog:

Caroline answers:

No and Yes ;-)

No...attaching the gangline to the handlebars would also be suicidal,
ideally it should be attached to the front of the frame, just below where
the handlebars slot in - so you still have total control over the
steering. I use an home-made antenna to keep the gangline clear of the
front wheel/brake-setup too.

And Yes...the dogs pull from the front, like sled dogs...it's one of the
dryland/urban mushing sports.

You do need to do some ground work with the dog, so you have some control
over their speed & direction....but other than that, hook-up and have fun!

I use x-back harnesses on both my dogs....and have proper single & double
ganglines with a bungee/shock cord section & strong quick release
clips/carabineers (sp?), depending on if I'm running 1 dog or both dogs.

Hi, added 'who said what' because it was getting a little confusing!

I've now had my monthly appointment with my spine-doc who brought up the
link I found off googling the bikejoring you mentioned. There they have a
device that is similar in concept to the springer which hooks to the back
wheel. My Doc said yes and to run the device through the Vet as Cash has
arthritis in his spine (not major, but his neck lacks normal flexibility).
Vet trip made this morning and though we have slightly competing needs, we
worked it out. As long as I watch for hot pavement and keep it to the
1/2-3/4 mile Cash is allowed and a slow speed, it works. Oh, harness only,
no neck collar.

I'm to double leash his harness, one to the bike device and one with
Charlotte jogging along side until he's totally comfortable. Vet said to
start by walking the bike at a brisk pace until he gets used to the sound of
it and isn't distracted. Do that as often as needed until he pretty much
ignores the bike and doesnt try to go to the side and pull me over. AKA,
until he catches on that running/walking with the bike is like jogging with
Charlotte. 'No side trips allowed'.

This brings us right back to where I started and where you seem to have alot
of experience. What to look for in how he acts and best advice on pitfalls
in training. I don't want him 'scared of the bike' and I want to make sure
this is a fun thing for both of us with added exercise.

The vet's advice sounded sane to me. I'd love anything you can add to it!
You mention ground work with the dog over their speed and direction. That
specifically is what I am looking for.

What Cash has now is a variable behavior. Running with Charlotte, he will
not go to the sides at all (one accident was all it took and he *never* made
that mistake again). Walking with me he is mostly slack leashed or when he
pulls to the side, he looks back to see me first and is gentle (well within
my level to handle).

Now to order the bike-leash

http://www.thedogoutdoors.com/dog-bike-leash.html

Meantime, gonna go walk the dog with the bike rolling along side me (outer
side seems right with bike-me-Cash-Charlotte arrangement) and him double
leashed to his harness between us. We did something like it last night but
single leashed and Charlotte holding it with me just walking my bike a few
feet away. Took the safety beads off the bike spokes as they were
distracting him. (Flourescent ones that glow in the dark to make you more
visible, Japan thing, they click up and down as you ride).

"Dogman" wrote
"cshenk" wrote:
"caroline" wrote

Here's a great opportunity for Caroline and Schoen to do the right
thing, to help the dog groups, to help newbies, etc., by informing
Carol that their replies (if they wish to reply) to Carol's post can
be found in r.p.d.activities.

Will they do the right thing, or will they not?

THAT is the question.

No, the question is did the rpd set just 'die' and move off to other paths
of communication.. It moved most of the posters elsewhere obviously.

Caroline seems to have experience in exactly what I want to learn. I dont
want you driving her off to respond someplace else or me to 'go hunting' to
see where she was forced to move to based on your own personal assessment.

I want to talk to Caroline and I don't care if you think it 'belongs in
rpd.activities'.

On Sat, 15 May 2010 15:33:25 -0400, "cshenk" wrote:

"Dogman" wrote
"cshenk" wrote:
"caroline" wrote

Here's a great opportunity for Caroline and Schoen to do the right
thing, to help the dog groups, to help newbies, etc., by informing
Carol that their replies (if they wish to reply) to Carol's post can
be found in r.p.d.activities.

Will they do the right thing, or will they not?

THAT is the question.

No, the question is did the rpd set just 'die' and move off to other paths
of communication.. It moved most of the posters elsewhere obviously.

No, it didn't move anyone anywhere. They went on their own.

"sighthounds & siberians" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 15 May 2010 15:33:25 -0400, "cshenk" wrote:

"Dogman" wrote
"cshenk" wrote:
"caroline" wrote

Here's a great opportunity for Caroline and Schoen to do the right
thing, to help the dog groups, to help newbies, etc., by informing
Carol that their replies (if they wish to reply) to Carol's post can
be found in r.p.d.activities.

Will they do the right thing, or will they not?

THAT is the question.

No, the question is did the rpd set just 'die' and move off to other paths
of communication.. It moved most of the posters elsewhere obviously.

No, it didn't move anyone anywhere. They went on their own.

Durn, I thought it was all because of *me*!

Dogman started a thread in the activities ng. Rather lonely place, that. A
better way to do it might have been for him to have added a "Follow-ups-to"
in the header, or cross-posting by adding the ng he wanted to rejuvenate. He
did the right thing by going there. And if he really wants to set a good
example, he'll just stay there, waiting....

Paul and Muttley
www.muttleydog.com

"cshenk" wrote
"caroline" wrote

No...attaching the gangline to the handlebars would also be suicidal,
ideally it should be attached to the front of the frame, just below where
the handlebars slot in - so you still have total control over the
steering. I use an home-made antenna to keep the gangline clear of the
front wheel/brake-setup too.

And Yes...the dogs pull from the front, like sled dogs...it's one of the
dryland/urban mushing sports.

You do need to do some ground work with the dog, so you have some control
over their speed & direction....but other than that, hook-up and have
fun!

I use x-back harnesses on both my dogs....and have proper single & double
ganglines with a bungee/shock cord section & strong quick release
clips/carabineers (sp?), depending on if I'm running 1 dog or both dogs.

Hi, added 'who said what' because it was getting a little confusing!

I've now had my monthly appointment with my spine-doc who brought up the
link I found off googling the bikejoring you mentioned. There they have a
device that is similar in concept to the springer which hooks to the back
wheel. My Doc said yes and to run the device through the Vet as Cash has
arthritis in his spine (not major, but his neck lacks normal flexibility).
Vet trip made this morning and though we have slightly competing needs, we
worked it out. As long as I watch for hot pavement and keep it to the
1/2-3/4 mile Cash is allowed and a slow speed, it works. Oh, harness
only, no neck collar.

Interesting! Any chance of a link to the rear-mounted device?
I don't see how that would work for bikejoring? But I'm always open to new
ideas ;-)

I'm to double leash his harness, one to the bike device and one with
Charlotte jogging along side until he's totally comfortable. Vet said to
start by walking the bike at a brisk pace until he gets used to the sound
of it and isn't distracted. Do that as often as needed until he pretty
much ignores the bike and doesnt try to go to the side and pull me over.
AKA, until he catches on that running/walking with the bike is like
jogging with Charlotte. 'No side trips allowed'.

This brings us right back to where I started and where you seem to have
alot of experience. What to look for in how he acts and best advice on
pitfalls in training. I don't want him 'scared of the bike' and I want to
make sure this is a fun thing for both of us with added exercise.

Yup...you have hit the nail on the head....it always has to be something
fun, and not a chore for the dog to do.
Keep training sessions short and fun, and always stop with the dog wanting
to keep running...as opposed to stopping because the dog is utterly
exhausted.

Because I wanted my dogs to pull (not sure how much 'pull' you're going to
want to encourage Cash to do with his spinal issue?) and because both my dog
do competitive obedience...the hardest thing for me was (a) getting through
to them both that they were *allowed* to pull....but only when in
harness...ie...no pulling when lead/line attached to collar....but pull for
all you're worth and shoulder in to the harness when the lead/line is
attached to the x-back harness. I started just lettng them get used to
tension on the back of the gangline by letting them drag around a
half-filled plastic oil can...whilst I walked next to them...when they kept
moving they got praised to high heaven...and if they stopped because they
felt the weight and had 2nd thoughts about whether they should be 'pulling'
I said nothing and tried a different way to get them moving again. Both
dogs had different 'eureka' moments. An empty plastic oil can was too
light...and if they jumped forward in panic, the can flew through the
air....within 10 seconds of my first sessiion *I* learnt to add a little
water to the can to give it a little weight :-)

Once they were confidently pulling the oil can we increased the weight. In
the end I had them dragging a spare tire around the yard...and whilst we
were working on this, during our daily walks we introduced them to
walking/running with the bike...not attached to the bike...but just letting
them getting used to having it around and having it behind them.

When we graduated to hooking them to the bike, I engaged hubby's services as
a 'rabbit' and he jogged/ran/cycled ahead of us, calling them on, whilst I
worked hard to keep the gangline taught, so they twigged that they needed to
pull....but I also peddled a little so I wasn't asking them to do too much
too soon. Again, once they both had their 'eureka moments' we stopped
abusing hubby as a 'rabbit' ;-)
In the early days I only ever ran them as singles...and only when I was
confident that they really did understand what was expected of them, and
that they were reasonably trustworthy with regards to commands, did I run
them as a pair.

The vet's advice sounded sane to me. I'd love anything you can add to it!
You mention ground work with the dog over their speed and direction. That
specifically is what I am looking for.

Yup....don't even think about attaching your dog to your bike without some
good solid ground-work on commands. Start on lead walks, and once you get
on the bike with your daughter at the other end of the lead its important
that the commands come from you, not Charlotte....traditionally 'mushers'
would teach 'gee' & 'haw' for Right & Left...but I stick to plain old Left &
Right...just 'Left' or 'Right' means turn left or right (at a junction), and
'Come Left/Right' means move over left or right on the trail (for better
ground to run, avoiding tree stumps etc). When starting on a run I use
'ready' to get their attention, and 'hike' for GO! (No point calling 'hike'
if they're distracted, hence the use of 'ready'). 'Hup' to go up a gear, ie
from trot to lope. 'Easy' to slow down, and woah to stop. 'On by' for
ignore that smell/pedestrian/loose dog/ etc etc and to pass other teams when
running with a group....and 'straight' to go straight at a 4-way junction.
Just use whatever commands you think will work best, and be consistent with
them. Just like training him to do anything....be consistent and he'll soon
pick the idea up ;-)
I keep the bike slightly to the side of them...so if there is an emergency
stop necessary I vastly reduce the risk of running over them with the bike.
Here in Eire, we drive on the left, and I automatically encouraged them to
run on the left side of a trail....I believe in the US its traditional to
bikejor/scooter etc on the right side of the trail. Can't remember where I
read that...but there are loads of good web resources out there for
dryland/urban mushing, bikejoring and dog scootering. Google Daphne
Lewis...she wrote a great book for starters ;-)


Meantime, gonna go walk the dog with the bike rolling along side me (outer
side seems right with bike-me-Cash-Charlotte arrangement) and him double
leashed to his harness between us. We did something like it last night
but single leashed and Charlotte holding it with me just walking my bike a
few feet away.

Sounds a great way to start him off. Have fun ;-)

"Dogman" wrote

Here's a great opportunity for Caroline and Schoen to do the right
thing, to help the dog groups, to help newbies, etc., by informing
Carol that their replies (if they wish to reply) to Carol's post can
be found in r.p.d.activities.

I think you just did that ;-)

Will they do the right thing, or will they not?

As for me, I'll just reply to the question in the newsgroup it was asked in.

"caroline" wrote
some stuff explaining how I trained my dogs to pull in harness and go
bikejoring with me

Actually I think, in hindsight, there's quite a lot in my reply to cshenk's
question that is absolutely appropriate to a 'behaviour' ng ;-)

"caroline" wrote in message
...
"cshenk" wrote
"caroline" wrote

(PS leaving more than I usually do but was asked to move this to
rpd.activities which I see now you also are in).

No...attaching the gangline to the handlebars would also be suicidal,
ideally it should be attached to the front of the frame, just below
where the handlebars slot in - so you still have total control over the
steering. I use an home-made antenna to keep the gangline clear of the
front wheel/brake-setup too.

And Yes...the dogs pull from the front, like sled dogs...it's one of the
dryland/urban mushing sports.

You do need to do some ground work with the dog, so you have some
control over their speed & direction....but other than that, hook-up and
have fun!

I use x-back harnesses on both my dogs....and have proper single &
double ganglines with a bungee/shock cord section & strong quick release
clips/carabineers (sp?), depending on if I'm running 1 dog or both dogs.

Hi, added 'who said what' because it was getting a little confusing!

I've now had my monthly appointment with my spine-doc who brought up the
link I found off googling the bikejoring you mentioned. There they have
a device that is similar in concept to the springer which hooks to the
back wheel. My Doc said yes and to run the device through the Vet as
Cash has arthritis in his spine (not major, but his neck lacks normal
flexibility). Vet trip made this morning and though we have slightly
competing needs, we worked it out. As long as I watch for hot pavement
and keep it to the 1/2-3/4 mile Cash is allowed and a slow speed, it
works. Oh, harness only, no neck collar.

Interesting! Any chance of a link to the rear-mounted device?
I don't see how that would work for bikejoring? But I'm always open to
new ideas ;-)

Must have left it off this one, sorry.

http://www.thedogoutdoors.com/dog-bi...cessories.html
http://www.thedogoutdoors.com/dog-bike-leash.html --- the running dog bike
tow leash

It's probably not the classic you are thinking of but it works with my bike
while the springer doesn't. I've got the rare bike that won't work with it
unless I raise the seat about 4 inches and then I can't ride it (too tall).

I'm to double leash his harness, one to the bike device and one with
Charlotte jogging along side until he's totally comfortable. Vet said to
start by walking the bike at a brisk pace until he gets used to the sound
of it and isn't distracted. Do that as often as needed until he pretty
much ignores the bike and doesnt try to go to the side and pull me over.
AKA, until he catches on that running/walking with the bike is like
jogging with Charlotte. 'No side trips allowed'.

This brings us right back to where I started and where you seem to have
alot of experience. What to look for in how he acts and best advice on
pitfalls in training. I don't want him 'scared of the bike' and I want
to make sure this is a fun thing for both of us with added exercise.

Yup...you have hit the nail on the head....it always has to be something
fun, and not a chore for the dog to do.
Keep training sessions short and fun, and always stop with the dog wanting
to keep running...as opposed to stopping because the dog is utterly
exhausted.

Yes, that makes sense. In his case, he's not alowed to run very much (heart
problems) but running 'some at a human jog' is good for him and makes him
healthier.

Because I wanted my dogs to pull (not sure how much 'pull' you're going to
want to encourage Cash to do with his spinal issue?) and because both my
dog

Not much. His spinal issues are mostly in the neck. He'd probably get a
kick out of pulling me around in a little cart but I don't think that's
wise. ;-)

do competitive obedience...the hardest thing for me was (a) getting
through to them both that they were *allowed* to pull....but only when in
harness...ie...no pulling when lead/line attached to collar....but pull
for

LOL! I can see that one!

all you're worth and shoulder in to the harness when the lead/line is
attached to the x-back harness. I started just lettng them get used to
tension on the back of the gangline by letting them drag around a
half-filled plastic oil can...whilst I walked next to them...when they
kept moving they got praised to high heaven...and if they stopped because
they felt the weight and had 2nd thoughts about whether they should be
'pulling' I said nothing and tried a different way to get them moving
again. Both dogs had different 'eureka' moments. An empty plastic oil
can was too light...and if they jumped forward in panic, the can flew
through the air....within 10 seconds of my first sessiion *I* learnt to
add a little water to the can to give it a little weight :-)

Hehehehe! Love it!

Once they were confidently pulling the oil can we increased the weight.
In the end I had them dragging a spare tire around the yard...and whilst
we were working on this, during our daily walks we introduced them to
walking/running with the bike...not attached to the bike...but just
letting them getting used to having it around and having it behind them.

Yes, thats what we've started. Just walking with the bike at my other side.

When we graduated to hooking them to the bike, I engaged hubby's services
as a 'rabbit' and he jogged/ran/cycled ahead of us, calling them on,
whilst I worked hard to keep the gangline taught, so they twigged that
they needed to pull....but I also peddled a little so I wasn't asking them
to do too much too soon. Again, once they both had their 'eureka moments'
we stopped abusing hubby as a 'rabbit' ;-)

I can picture this clearly! Sounds like so much fun!

In the early days I only ever ran them as singles...and only when I was
confident that they really did understand what was expected of them, and
that they were reasonably trustworthy with regards to commands, did I run
them as a pair.

The vet's advice sounded sane to me. I'd love anything you can add to
it! You mention ground work with the dog over their speed and direction.
That specifically is what I am looking for.

Yup....don't even think about attaching your dog to your bike without some
good solid ground-work on commands. Start on lead walks, and once you get
on the bike with your daughter at the other end of the lead its important
that the commands come from you, not Charlotte....traditionally 'mushers'
would teach 'gee' & 'haw' for Right & Left...but I stick to plain old Left
& Right...just 'Left' or 'Right' means turn left or right (at a junction),
and 'Come Left/Right' means move over left or right on the trail (for
better

This makes sense. Hadn't though about it from that angle. He's not totally
reliable yet at it but 'brake' is where we started. That means to us a
rolling stop. (The word Stop is an immediate and won't work if I have to
bring the bike to a stop as it takes several steps). Cash is utterly
reliable with 'stop'. 'Brake' he's getting the hang of as 'slow down and
come to a stop'.

Left and right, he's got down though from Charlotte and hand signals
combined with 'turn' and a slight ternsion on his leash in the direction she
wants him to go. Say 'turn' and he peeks at her so I'm not all that sure if
it's her flapping hand or the tension he's really following. I can tell you
I tried saying 'turn' yesterday when walking him with the bike and Charlotte
and he looked at her (grin, to be expected).

ground to run, avoiding tree stumps etc). When starting on a run I use
'ready' to get their attention, and 'hike' for GO! (No point calling
'hike' if they're distracted, hence the use of 'ready'). 'Hup' to go up a
gear, ie from trot to lope. 'Easy' to slow down, and woah to stop. 'On
by' for

I think your 'easy' is my 'brake'. I hadn't thought yet about start/ready
commands. Charlotte kinda flaps his leash along his harness then starts at
a fast walk then a slow jog. Once running, at need she just used 'stop' but
has been working with 'brake' for the past 2 weeks.

(Charlotte BTW is my 16 year old daughter who takes Cash jogging every other
day in good weather for a short spin).

ignore that smell/pedestrian/loose dog/ etc etc and to pass other teams
when running with a group....and 'straight' to go straight at a 4-way
junction. Just use whatever commands you think will work best, and be
consistent with them. Just like training him to do anything....be
consistent and he'll soon pick the idea up ;-)

There ya go. I'll need some new words added to his 'dictionary' but he
loves learning new things. He's the sort who gets bored if not given a mild
training challange daily.

I keep the bike slightly to the side of them...so if there is an emergency
stop necessary I vastly reduce the risk of running over them with the
bike.

Yes. With this device, he'll be to my side all the time, about even with me
(on the left).

Here in Eire, we drive on the left, and I automatically encouraged them to
run on the left side of a trail....I believe in the US its traditional to
bikejor/scooter etc on the right side of the trail. Can't remember where
I read that...but there are loads of good web resources out there for
dryland/urban mushing, bikejoring and dog scootering. Google Daphne
Lewis...she wrote a great book for starters ;-)

Yes, we drive on the right side (grin). Most of my heavy duty biking was
done in Japan though (left siders like you). Sadly, no trails nearby and
we'll have to do our spins on smooth pavement but they will be short ones
and I'll check the pavement for heat (we do that anyways as it's just as
important when walking or jogging him). Some of the area has smooth enough
sidewalks for me to use and let him trott along on the grass apron.

One re-training for myself here too. I've always hopped off on the left.
I'll have to think about that one. Better stability with us both on same
side but not sure how much room to the left will be available.

Meantime, gonna go walk the dog with the bike rolling along side me
(outer side seems right with bike-me-Cash-Charlotte arrangement) and him
double leashed to his harness between us. We did something like it last
night but single leashed and Charlotte holding it with me just walking my
bike a few feet away.

Sounds a great way to start him off. Have fun ;-)

We are!