"caroline" wrote

some stuff explaining how I trained my dogs to pull in harness and go
bikejoring with me

Actually I think, in hindsight, there's quite a lot in my reply to
cshenk's question that is absolutely appropriate to a 'behaviour' ng ;-)

Grin, seems to span both to me. Activities to me seemed more like
professional racing than behavior modification and training. Since my
questions are mostly behavior modification and training, shrug.... But,
since you are apparently in both, it doesnt really matter as long as folks
in rpd.activities don't get mad at all the parts that apparently belong
here!

"Dogman" wrote
On Sun, 16 May 2010 11:32:48 -0400, Dogman wrote:

On Sun, 16 May 2010 14:08:40 +0100, "caroline" wrote:

"Dogman" wrote

Here's a great opportunity for Caroline and Schoen to do the right
thing, to help the dog groups, to help newbies, etc., by informing
Carol that their replies (if they wish to reply) to Carol's post can
be found in r.p.d.activities.

I think you just did that ;-)

Will they do the right thing, or will they not?

As for me, I'll just reply to the question in the newsgroup it was asked
in.

Damn. Too bad.

But hey, it's your choice.

Yup, and I'm thankful that you remember that ;-)

"Dogman" wrote
"cshenk" wrote:

Roger. Not much reason to discuss this then is there? Doesnt matter to
you
that the lead makes that automatic and we are dual leash training him to
do
that he already does when jogging with Charlotte. You fixated on 'heel
command walking'.

The reason I'm "fixated" on "heel command walking" is because that's
all you need to worry about. All you're doing is adding a bike to the
"heel command walking" equation. I don't know why that is so hard for
you to understand.

I dont get why you can't clue in either. Hate to tell you this but you
arent GOD and you really don't know everything like you portend to one and
sundry. You fixate like an ADHD person on one thing and go 'that has to be
it' and there is nothing else that exists.

Dogman, You have issues far past any of mine. You can take a simple thread
on 'how to train' and turn it nasty in a second. This is merely another
sample of it.


But if it makes you happy teaching him all those needless commands,
etc., or you're thinking about entering the Iditarod one day, by all
means, keep doing it.

And you're absolutely right, there is no reason to keep discussing
this, because one can only lead a horse to water...

Sigh.

--
Dogman

r.p.d.behavior - For the discussion of canine behavior, obedience
training, problems, fixes, etc.
r.p.d.health - For the discussion of canine health issues.
r.p d.activities - For the discussion of canine activities, e.g., agility,
field trials, etc.
r.p d.breeds - For the discusion of various canine breeds, standards,
and breeding info.
r.p.d.rescue - For the discussion of canine rescue, adoption, etc.
r.p.d.misc - For the discussion of any other canine topic, photo
links, etc.
r.p.d.info - Official newsgroup, breed, activity, etc., FAQs.

"Dogman" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 30 May 2010 22:13:00 -0400, "cshenk" wrote:

I dont get why you can't clue in either. Hate to tell you this but you
arent GOD

When it comes to dog training, yep, I pretty much am.

No, actually, Victoria Stilwell has claimed that title. See:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iaHe...layer_embedded

Hey, it was on National TV, so it must be so, eh?

Now there's a true "maroon".

Paul and Muttley

"Dogman" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 30 May 2010 22:27:17 -0400, "cshenk" wrote:

It's easy to hide from my posts, Shenk, but it's impossible to hide
from the truth. And the truth is that you are an ignorant, arrogant,
stubborn, ungrateful, ultra-sensitive dog owner. QED.

I've done nothing but try to help you with your dog, make your life
easier, and yet all I ever get back from you is crap.

What you've gotten back is quid pro quo of your nasty attitude. PKB!


Admit it. You just can't take criticism of any kind.

The fact is that you, Puppy Boy, cannot give advice without screaming it
from your self-righteous pulpit, and *you* can't stand it if someone does
not follow your commands immediately and unquestionably, as you demand from
your poor dogs.


Unfortunately, your dog (like Muttley) will pay the price for that.

Yup, Muttley's totally miserable and he will someday die of natural causes
rather than having had his life ended because of the negligence of an
obedience trainer with an attitude. And Cash is a medical needs dog who is
enjoying a prolonged and enjoyable life because someone truly cares about
him and is willing to invest money and time in him.

Now, put your money where your snout is and tell us a little about your dogs
and show us some pictures or videos to see their happy faces and wagging
tails. Double dang dirty dog dare you!

Paul and Muttley

On 5/30/2010 7:13 PM, cshenk wrote:
"Dogman" wrote
"cshenk" wrote:

The reason I'm "fixated" on "heel command walking" is because that's
all you need to worry about. All you're doing is adding a bike to the
"heel command walking" equation. I don't know why that is so hard for
you to understand.

I dont get why you can't clue in either.

I have lurked for a looooong! time.

I happen to agree with Dogman here. I can't see the purpose of teaching
multiple commands to multiple people when one simple term will suffice.
By the same token, I am a person who does not have long, involved one
sided conversations with my dog either. If I'm going to the P.O. I
don't explain where the car ride will take us and what all it will
involve - it's simply open the front door and "Let's go!"

One thing that causes me concern with convoluted, multiple commands is
the additional time all of this would take in the event of an emergency.
If a car should pull out in front of you and you would need to
immediately brake and swerve to avoid a collision you are shouting a lot
of words when a simple quick command would cover it all. If that
situation should arise when I was biking with my dog I can simply make a
sharp noise that he already knows means "things are changing and you
must pay attention here" and he immediately adjusts and responds to
whatever braking and swerving I need to do to keep us both safe.

You fixate like an ADHD person on one thing and go 'that has
to be it' and there is nothing else that exists.

The mental disorder I think you are actually referring to is OCD. ADHD
individuals have difficulty focusing on either information or tasks.


Dogman, You have issues far past any of mine. You can take a simple
thread on 'how to train' and turn it nasty in a second. This is merely
another sample of it.

It's just my opinion here, but I think you need to consider differences
in experience, lifestyles and even number of dogs before you can totally
discount advise from another trainer. For those who are new to the
world of training there is a lot of value to seeing "both sides" and
then making decisions on which style suits their needs. If you find the
manner in which advice is given to be particularly caustic or demeaning,
just ignore it. Pretty simple really.

Karen


But if it makes you happy teaching him all those needless commands,
etc., or you're thinking about entering the Iditarod one day, by all
means, keep doing it.

And you're absolutely right, there is no reason to keep discussing
this, because one can only lead a horse to water...

Sigh.

--
Dogman

r.p.d.behavior - For the discussion of canine behavior, obedience
training, problems, fixes, etc.
r.p.d.health - For the discussion of canine health issues.
r.p d.activities - For the discussion of canine activities, e.g.,
agility, field trials, etc.
r.p d.breeds - For the discusion of various canine breeds, standards,
and breeding info.
r.p.d.rescue - For the discussion of canine rescue, adoption, etc.
r.p.d.misc - For the discussion of any other canine topic, photo
links, etc.
r.p.d.info - Official newsgroup, breed, activity, etc., FAQs.

"Dogman" wrote in message
...

I am Simple, yes. But apparently impossible, for those like me,
whose primary mission here is to ****-disturb and agitate.

Once again IFYPFY. You've been "tweened"! If you would just stick to the
subject, I wouldn't have to use my choke chain on you, PuppyBoy. Try keeping
me out of it and I'll allow your trachea to decompress.

Paul and Muttley

On Tue, 01 Jun 2010 15:18:55 -0400, Dogman wrote:


Exactly. Proper formal "heel" training makes it the dog's
responsibility to know at all times where he should be, how fast he
should go, etc. That's what heeling *drills* are all about. Changes of
directions, left turns, right turns, about faces, changes of pace,
figure eights, etc. And if the dog can do that on a walking heel, he
can do that on a biking heel. Throwing in silly commands like "brake,"
"despacio" (WTF???), etc. will only confuse the hell out of the dog,
and make emergencies that much harder to deal with.

Despacio?? Isn't that the cold Spanish soup that...oh, wait, that's
gazpacho.

Scientists believe that dogs are capable of understanding somewhere
around 200 words. This does not mean, however, that everyone who has
contact with a dog should teach it a different word for a particular
behavior, just to see if he can keep track of them all and remember
which word means what for whom. One thing every training method I've
seen agrees on is to use consistent command words in training. I have
trouble training my non-dog friends that telling Teddy "down" when he
jumps up to say hi isn't going to help, because he knows his name is
Teddyoff.

It's one thing to notice that dogs seem to understand many different
words, or even to talk to your dog all day long and see how many words
he'll learn. But what scientists don't completely understand is
exactly how dogs' minds work, and therefore how they understand words.
They do know that dogs are very physical and respond better to
gestures or hand signals than commands, as anyone who does agility can
tell you. When training a dog, and especially when training things
like recall or stay, you want to make it as basic as possible because
those commands can be lifesavers in an emergency. Sometimes the
supposedly cat-friendly greyhounds we get from the track need
reinforcement when they're in an actual home with a real, live cat. I
always tell people to teach "no kitty" or "no cat", rather than using
"leave it" or some other command that might be used in other
circumstances. A shouted "no kitty" might save a cat's life, and if
there is only one command used to signal a dog to stop pursuing a cat,
the dog isn't going to have any doubt in its mind what is expected of
him.

They just aren't needed. Period.

And they're potentially confusing.

"sighthounds & siberians" wrote in message
...

Scientists believe that dogs are capable of understanding somewhere
around 200 words. This does not mean, however, that everyone who has
contact with a dog should teach it a different word for a particular
behavior, just to see if he can keep track of them all and remember
which word means what for whom. One thing every training method I've
seen agrees on is to use consistent command words in training. I have
trouble training my non-dog friends that telling Teddy "down" when he
jumps up to say hi isn't going to help, because he knows his name is
Teddyoff.

Problem with Muttley is that he was rescued from the "hood" in inner city
Baltimore. When I tell him he is bad, he thinks that's a good thing. And if
I tell him to "get down", he jumps up and starts dancing! Yo!

Paul and Muttley

"~Karen~" wrote
cshenk wrote:

I have lurked for a looooong! time.

Welcome back Karen! I'm pretty much new compared to what folks say here.

I happen to agree with Dogman here. I can't see the purpose of teaching
multiple commands to multiple people when one simple term will suffice.

Yes, but there is a difference involved.

By the same token, I am a person who does not have long, involved one
sided conversations with my dog either. If I'm going to the P.O. I

Nor do I. Dogman mixed me with Paul somehow. He also lost sight that if
you say 'Cash' there is 100% immediate attention. Hence advice to Daughter
to preceed 'command' with his name if chatting with friend as jogging along.
You don't afterall expect 2 chatting 16 year olds to never use the word
'stop' (oh, He's heart stop cool!) and Cash isn't that dumb.

don't explain where the car ride will take us and what all it will
involve - it's simply open the front door and "Let's go!"

Same here. Mine's simpler. 'In' works.

One thing that causes me concern with convoluted, multiple commands is the
additional time all of this would take in the event of an emergency. If a
car should pull out in front of you and you would need to immediately
brake and swerve to avoid a collision you are shouting a lot of words when
a simple quick command would cover it all. If that

What lot of words? 'Brake'. It's one word. He already knows 'Stop' as an
immediate 'right this second, skin your nose on the road if you have to sort
of stop'.

situation should arise when I was biking with my dog I can simply make a
sharp noise that he already knows means "things are changing and you must
pay attention here" and he immediately adjusts and responds to whatever
braking and swerving I need to do to keep us both safe.

Ok. Thats what I am working on along with what he already knew. I'm trying
to not add too many new words. To Cash 'brake' means immediate attention
and watch closely as I am slowing down and may shift fast. This seems to be
the same as your sound?

I could use any word from the names of flowers like 'marigold' if I wanted
to and it wouldnt matter to him as long as we had a common understanding of
the behavior expected.

You fixate like an ADHD person on one thing and go 'that has
to be it' and there is nothing else that exists.

The mental disorder I think you are actually referring to is OCD. ADHD
individuals have difficulty focusing on either information or tasks.

Grin

Dogman, You have issues far past any of mine. You can take a simple
thread on 'how to train' and turn it nasty in a second. This is merely
another sample of it.

It's just my opinion here, but I think you need to consider differences in
experience, lifestyles and even number of dogs before you can totally
discount advise from another trainer. For those who are new to the world
of training there is a lot of value to seeing "both sides" and then making
decisions on which style suits their needs. If you find the manner in
which advice is given to be particularly caustic or demeaning, just ignore
it. Pretty simple really.

Yeah, but with so little traffic I hesitate to kill file him. I'd love to
see the groups grow back again but it's difficult when new posters come in
and get driven off.