On 6/5/2010 10:08 AM, cshenk wrote:
Hi folks,

It was GLORIOUS! Cash and I had so much fun!

All the prep-work was well worth it. In fact, the trainer said if was
the easiest dog for a first ride that she's ever had.

Your instincts on familiarizing Cash to the bike were spot on. But then
you already knew that it had been approved by those here who didn't
offer up suggestions to modify it.

snip

Ok, first spin is just her (with leash) and Charlotte. Walking then up
to jog. No commands issued at all. Assessment. 'Oddly forward heel but
no need for any verbal at all to maintain it'.

I translate this as "oddly forward heel" means the trainer was noting
that the positioning was wrong. She also seems to have a strange
fixation on "heel command walking" position - kind of makes a person go
"hmmmmm".

Practiced on way back 2
commands. Stop- poor thing almost hurt himself at slow jog. Then 'brake'
(slowed to a matched stop). Tried slowing at slow jog with no command.
Slow stop. Faster jog, no command, taut leash and some pull but not bad.
Assessment: Due to somewhat too far forward 'heel position' sort of slow
down command is handy though not essential.

My translation again - If a proper "heel command walking" position had
been trained the sort of slow down command would not be needed.

Ok, small break taken to let him recover. Trainer takes Charlotte on
short jog with her holding leash of Bassett/hound mix. Heel command then
starts out. Rest same as Cash meaning no commands needed. Difference is
dog is farther back.

Her dog is farther back - properly positioned. She gave the "heel"
command and needed no further commands. Yes, I did note that the dog
was being jogged and not using the bike. I am assuming here that
because the positioning was further back ("heel command walking")there
was not a taut leash or any pull.

Ok, first spin on bike is her with *my* bike and Cash on same path. She
started with 10min mile which he's used to. No commands issued at all.
None needed. Jogging bar is adjusted as I said, up and forward a bit and
body at almost perfect classic heel location.

"almost perfect classic heel" position which was suggested as the proper
positioning ("heel command walking") which would easily transfer to
proper positioning with a bike.

He wants to go a bit
forward which makes the leash (she used strong bungee cords braided with
snap rings on both ends) slightly taut but he drops back because he
knows it's supposed to be slack a bit.

He's a bit confused as to exactly where he is supposed to position his
body (classic "heel command walking") and where he was trained to
position (oddly forward).

Practiced slow stops with no
command and he slows with the bike.

So, having a command for "rolling stop" is unnecessary. Where have I
read that before?

Practiced fast stop with no command
and he was stressing the bungees until he adjusted.

I can't remember if you and your daughter had worked on "fast speed and
rapid stop" while you were training him to adjust to the bike.

Practiced same fast
speed with rapid stop and brake command, slowed with bike with no
stress. Assessment: 'Odd but highly functional command, mine is Whoa for
that but some use Heel'.

My translation: I cluck, your trainer "Whoa"s and I'm sure in an
emergency situation there are those who "Oh! Sh*t!" but for the life of
me I don't remember reading anything here that would have given your
trainer the idea that someone would use "Heel". The dog's already on
"heel".

-snip-

Overall assessment of trainer: Cash responds best to non-verbal commands
and seldom needs verbal. Family non-verbal trains automatically without
being aware of it. Owners should continue in this pattern as it suits
both. Non-verbal 'heel' is there but not noticed by owners. You all 'pat
your thigh' when you want him there as you start out. Much better
attention than average. High potential in service dog areas if health
allowed for it. Well socialized. No identified further training required
for this activity.

Good job all around. This information not only tells me that you have
worked well with Cash but also verifies that Dogman was giving you sound
advise.

I must admit that I was really concerned about that comment about
somebody's expertise being "outdated". That really had me scratching my
head. How can someone achieving a "heel command walk" beside a bike
factoring in varying speeds and turns without any attachment to the bike
frame to guarantee that positioning be out dated? It's kind of like
saying that my grandmother, who could bake a perfect loaf of bread in a
wood stove (where oven temperatures are determined by balancing what
kind wood, size of wood and quantity of wood and the amount of air flow)
couldn't possibly achieve the same perfection in a gas or electric oven
because she would have to use a devise that set the temperature
perfectly *for* her.

"~Karen~" wrote
cshenk wrote:

Ok, first spin is just her (with leash) and Charlotte. Walking then up
to jog. No commands issued at all. Assessment. 'Oddly forward heel but
no need for any verbal at all to maintain it'.

I translate this as "oddly forward heel" means the trainer was noting that
the positioning was wrong. She also seems to have a strange fixation on
"heel command walking" position - kind of makes a person go "hmmmmm".

That one is easy. I asked specifically about it as it had come up so much
here. There's lots of other bits said but I condensed to just what made
sense in typing up.

Practiced on way back 2
commands. Stop- poor thing almost hurt himself at slow jog. Then 'brake'
(slowed to a matched stop). Tried slowing at slow jog with no command.
Slow stop. Faster jog, no command, taut leash and some pull but not bad.
Assessment: Due to somewhat too far forward 'heel position' sort of slow
down command is handy though not essential.

My translation again - If a proper "heel command walking" position had
been trained the sort of slow down command would not be needed.

Seems so! Thats where she winds up at the end.

Ok, small break taken to let him recover. Trainer takes Charlotte on
short jog with her holding leash of Bassett/hound mix. Heel command then
starts out. Rest same as Cash meaning no commands needed. Difference is
dog is farther back.

Her dog is farther back - properly positioned. She gave the "heel"
command and needed no further commands. Yes, I did note that the dog was
being jogged and not using the bike. I am assuming here that because the
positioning was further back ("heel command walking")there was not a taut
leash or any pull.

Yes. Same overall as Cash but back further so no need for other.

Ok, first spin on bike is her with *my* bike and Cash on same path. She
started with 10min mile which he's used to. No commands issued at all.
None needed. Jogging bar is adjusted as I said, up and forward a bit and
body at almost perfect classic heel location.

"almost perfect classic heel" position which was suggested as the proper
positioning ("heel command walking") which would easily transfer to proper
positioning with a bike.

He wants to go a bit
forward which makes the leash (she used strong bungee cords braided with
snap rings on both ends) slightly taut but he drops back because he
knows it's supposed to be slack a bit.

He's a bit confused as to exactly where he is supposed to position his
body (classic "heel command walking") and where he was trained to position
(oddly forward).

Probably! Bike position is a little behind classic but not much so.

Practiced slow stops with no
command and he slows with the bike.

So, having a command for "rolling stop" is unnecessary. Where have I read
that before?

Read on ;-)

Practiced fast stop with no command
and he was stressing the bungees until he adjusted.

I can't remember if you and your daughter had worked on "fast speed and
rapid stop" while you were training him to adjust to the bike.

There's only so much you can do at human running speeds. He was practiced
with 'brake' in both fun and anticipation that it may be handy at faster
speeds.

Practiced same fast
speed with rapid stop and brake command, slowed with bike with no
stress. Assessment: 'Odd but highly functional command, mine is Whoa for
that but some use Heel'.

My translation: I cluck, your trainer "Whoa"s and I'm sure in an
emergency situation there are those who "Oh! Sh*t!" but for the life of me
I don't remember reading anything here that would have given your trainer
the idea that someone would use "Heel". The dog's already on "heel".

Dunno about that but she said lots of people have some sort of word or sound
for this. She said didn't matter what it was as long as the dog knew it
meant 'stick with me, I'm shifting'.

Overall assessment of trainer: Cash responds best to non-verbal commands
and seldom needs verbal. Family non-verbal trains automatically without
being aware of it. Owners should continue in this pattern as it suits
both. Non-verbal 'heel' is there but not noticed by owners. You all 'pat
your thigh' when you want him there as you start out. Much better
attention than average. High potential in service dog areas if health
allowed for it. Well socialized. No identified further training required
for this activity.

Good job all around. This information not only tells me that you have
worked well with Cash but also verifies that Dogman was giving you sound
advise.

There may not have been anything wrong with Dogman's advise, but his
delivery lacked a great deal and his main point was to stop training Cash as
i was and go back to 'heel' walking training with a dog that pretty much
does that already but with no commands used at all.

I must admit that I was really concerned about that comment about
somebody's expertise being "outdated". That really had me scratching my
head. How can someone achieving a "heel command walk" beside a bike
factoring in varying speeds and turns without any attachment to the bike
frame to guarantee that positioning be out dated? It's kind of like
saying that my grandmother, who could bake a perfect loaf of bread in a
wood stove (where oven temperatures are determined by balancing what kind
wood, size of wood and quantity of wood and the amount of air flow)
couldn't possibly achieve the same perfection in a gas or electric oven
because she would have to use a devise that set the temperature perfectly
*for* her.

Don't know. Until I asked him last week though, I don't recall him ever
mentioning he rode bikes with dogs. If he did, I missed it. Apparently he
uses a springer (I have the rare bike that won't fit one).

All the walking and jogging she did was to get familiar with the dog and his
health as well as training. Comments on position were because I asked
specifically about it.

Not in the first post but she passed us the number and email address of a
friend who does a level of service dog training (in fact I gave her
permission to add him to the emailed assessment that should be in shortly).
This isn't the full 'service dog for the blind' but Cash's natural position
is close enough for the handle many use for blind/vision limited. AKA: Cash
with a little training can help Don (husband) walk to 7-Eleven if his sight
gets worse. A fellow military dog handler who retired and specialized that
way. He works with older dogs to help fine tune them to needs of aging
owners.

This is the second trainer Cash has been with and both have mentioned he's a
seeming natural there. I think I may persue this and see what works well?
It can't hurt to have some fun training with Cash and Don.

On 6/5/2010 4:37 PM, cshenk wrote:
"~Karen~" wrote
cshenk wrote:

I can't remember if you and your daughter had worked on "fast speed
and rapid stop" while you were training him to adjust to the bike.

There's only so much you can do at human running speeds. He was
practiced with 'brake' in both fun and anticipation that it may be handy
at faster speeds.

I'm sorry. I phrased this in a clumsy fashion. What I was trying to
remember was if you and your daughter had worked with "sprinting spurts
with a more sudden stop" as well as "jogging speeds and rolling stops"
while you were training.

-snip-

Overall assessment of trainer: Cash responds best to non-verbal commands
and seldom needs verbal. Family non-verbal trains automatically without
being aware of it. Owners should continue in this pattern as it suits
both. Non-verbal 'heel' is there but not noticed by owners. You all 'pat
your thigh' when you want him there as you start out. Much better
attention than average. High potential in service dog areas if health
allowed for it. Well socialized. No identified further training required
for this activity.

Good job all around. This information not only tells me that you have
worked well with Cash but also verifies that Dogman was giving you
sound advise.

There may not have been anything wrong with Dogman's advise, but his
delivery lacked a great deal

I personally didn't see much wrong with how he initially attempted to
aid you. I think you were letting the spat over which ng what should be
posted in put you on the defensive and with that you were to quick to
discount anything he might have to say on any subject. Sometimes I find
it difficult to separate the "trash" (which would be left over hard
feelings after a disagreement) from the "treasure" (which, in this case,
would be sound and accurate training advise). If I don't make the
effort to do this I'm the one missing out on "treasure" and I don't know
about you - but I like "treasure" no matter where I find it. g

and his main point was to stop training
Cash as i was and go back to 'heel' walking training with a dog that
pretty much does that already but with no commands used at all.

Dogman never once said that you were to stop training Cash as you were.
He had only two concerns.
1) That you were properly positioning Cash in a way that would easily
and safely translate to running with a bike. Now be honest with
yourself here - you were the only one on the ng that knew that Cash
"pretty much" did that already and you didn't share that information.
2) When properly positioned your "rolling stop/pay attention" command
wasn't necessary. That was confirmed by your own trainer.

I must admit that I was really concerned about that comment about
somebody's expertise being "outdated". That really had me scratching
my head. How can someone achieving a "heel command walk" beside a bike
factoring in varying speeds and turns without any attachment to the
bike frame to guarantee that positioning be out dated? It's kind of
like saying that my grandmother, who could bake a perfect loaf of
bread in a wood stove (where oven temperatures are determined by
balancing what kind wood, size of wood and quantity of wood and the
amount of air flow) couldn't possibly achieve the same perfection in a
gas or electric oven because she would have to use a devise that set
the temperature perfectly *for* her.

Don't know.

Maybe she had figured out that you were feeling a bit defensive over the
whole issue and she was merely attempting to placate a new client. I
was hoping that was the case.

Until I asked him last week though, I don't recall him ever
mentioning he rode bikes with dogs. If he did, I missed it.

To be fair to you, I've been reading the ng for quite awhile and have
spent many hours going through archives, and when he first proposed the
"heel walking command" and how it translates into working with a bike it
was logical. I gathered from that that he had personal experience.

When he offered you the website for Springers he was obviously
disappointed for you when you discovered they wouldn't work for your
particular style of bike. He stated then that they were good pieces of
equipment. I gathered from that that he had a personal working
knowledge of them.

- snipped a lot of information that boils down to a wonderfully active
life for a very talented dog and his family -

This is the second trainer Cash has been with and both have mentioned
he's a seeming natural there. I think I may persue this and see what
works well? It can't hurt to have some fun training with Cash and Don.

You are all going to have a lot of fun!!

Karen

"Dogman" wrote in message
...

Just to keep the record straight, again, I don't want anyone to leave.
I'd like anyone who is really interested in learning about, or
discussing, training or behavior problems to stay. On the other hand,
if someone is only here to agitate and interfere in discussions, and
really isn't interested in training dogs (they know who they are),
there's no reason to be here in the first place.

Since *you* know who *you* are, and because *your* purpose does seem to be
to agitate and interfere in civil discussion, then *you* should go away. And
then maybe come back in a kinder, gentler manifestation. But that ain't
gonna happen.

Paul and Muttley

"Dogman" wrote in message
...

I always treat people the same way they treat me, and others.

Not true. You have waddled into this newsgroup just as it was starting to
get activity again, and you immediately took the offensive at being
offensive with vulgarity and abusive language.

It's essentially my motto.

Do doodoo unto others first and then whine when they do back to you what you
did first? That's a strange motto...


Since I'm not charging anyone here for help, I get to teach in my own
way. No, I can't force anyone to learn anything, but the info's there
for the taking.

The info may be good, but the haughty self-righteousness and the childish
vulgarities greatly diminish your efforts to be a teacher.


But this is the reality we have to work with, isn't it? And what
effect do you think your harping will have on me? Does harping
usually work for you in real life?

The people who matter most to me love me dearly. My wife, kids, grand
kids, etc. My dogs love me. Heck, even my horses love me.

Battered women love their abusive husbands. Abused children love their
horrible parents and then go on to abuse their own kids. Dogs who have been
beaten into submission offer behavior that may appear to be love to one who
is full of rage. And a dangerous, violent sociopath thinks of himself as an
exemplar of human behavior. You are in denial, Puppy Boy!


Why do you think I should need or want the affection of perfect
strangers?

We aren't perfect, just a whole lot better at being humans than you are.


And if you don't like it...um...you know what comes next, right?

Stick it in your ear.

Twit.

You are just too predictable, Puppy Boy.

Paul and Muttley

"cshenk" wrote in message
...
"Wingnut" wrote
"cshenk" wrote

It was GLORIOUS! Cash and I had so much fun!

(snip major)

I'm glad everything went so well. It's starting to sound as if Cash is
really a pretty special dog.

Grin, we think so but we are prejudiced. He's now happily snoozing on the
sofa in the sunroom. Cat draped across him as normal in almost
heating-pad shape.

I'm gonna tuck into a bubble bath in a sec. Soothing heat for a bit more
activity than I normally have. I bet we are both a little sore tomorrow
and will need to work out the kinks! More of same? Just 1/2 mile though
and slow. He (and I) need time to work up a bit.

I'm glad things worked out so well for you and Cash. I doubt I'll ever get
Muttley trained as well, but we'll work on it. Right now we are enjoying our
stay at the KOA near Hagerstown. Tomorrow is the outdoor session of the
BluesFest but unfortunately no dogs allowed.

Paul and Muttley

"~Karen~" wrote
cshenk wrote:

There's only so much you can do at human running speeds. He was
practiced with 'brake' in both fun and anticipation that it may be handy
at faster speeds.

I'm sorry. I phrased this in a clumsy fashion. What I was trying to
remember was if you and your daughter had worked with "sprinting spurts
with a more sudden stop" as well as "jogging speeds and rolling stops"
while you were training.

Not 2 years ago when we started the jogging habits. Nor when leash training
in general (at the start he was about like the videos of Paul and Muttley
except he paid attention better I think? He just didn't 'know better' yet.)

There may not have been anything wrong with Dogman's advise, but his
delivery lacked a great deal

I personally didn't see much wrong with how he initially attempted to aid
you. I think you were letting the spat over which ng what should be
posted in put you on the defensive and with that you were to quick to
discount anything he might have to say on any subject.

There have been several 'spats' to the point where Paul and I pretty much
expect it from him.

Dogman never once said that you were to stop training Cash as you were. He
had only two concerns.
1) That you were properly positioning Cash in a way that would easily and
safely translate to running with a bike. Now be honest with yourself
here - you were the only one on the ng that knew that Cash "pretty much"
did that already and you didn't share that information.

Yes, it's in earlier threads. Probably mentioned in conjunction with
harness training as well as what minimal leash skills Cash had when we got
him where neck collars were used and my first trainer had us convert. That
would have been around March 2008 when we got him but posted 'about' much
more recently when Paul and I were talking about collar types.

2) When properly positioned your "rolling stop/pay attention" command
wasn't necessary. That was confirmed by your own trainer.

It never was for human running speeds or we'd have taught something like it
2 years ago for when Charlotte runs Cash.

It's just handy when going faster on a bike. Harmlessly so and he enjoyed
learning it.

Maybe she had figured out that you were feeling a bit defensive over the
whole issue and she was merely attempting to placate a new client. I was
hoping that was the case.

Don't know what she read or how much. I doubt she spent much time though
she did mention Caroline's message.

Until I asked him last week though, I don't recall him ever
mentioning he rode bikes with dogs. If he did, I missed it.

To be fair to you, I've been reading the ng for quite awhile and have
spent many hours going through archives, and when he first proposed the
"heel walking command" and how it translates into working with a bike it
was logical. I gathered from that that he had personal experience.

When he offered you the website for Springers he was obviously
disappointed for you when you discovered they wouldn't work for your
particular style of bike. He stated then that they were good pieces of
equipment. I gathered from that that he had a personal working knowledge
of them.

Yeah, it was a very good attempt and I thanked him then emailed the company
right away with my bike model. Company came right back with a picture of my
model for verification and the only way to work with the springer was to
raise the seat 2.5-3 inches which I can't do and still ride it. It's a
taller man's model and I'm 5ft1 (just able to handle it). Most bikes have a
center bar below the seat area where one will fit but this model doesn't.

Then Caroline mentioned her version and a happy google hunt lead to another
device, not a springer but one that works on my bike.

- snipped a lot of information that boils down to a wonderfully active
life for a very talented dog and his family -

Yeah, we like to do all sorts of things with Cash and Daisy. (Daisy-chan
'cat' of course doesn't train anything like a dog but if you have a cat with
issues, meet me in rpc.health+behavior).

This is the second trainer Cash has been with and both have mentioned
he's a seeming natural there. I think I may persue this and see what
works well? It can't hurt to have some fun training with Cash and Don.

You are all going to have a lot of fun!!

I'm sure we all will and thanks! He's got my email now along with the typed
up report from the lady trainer (vice my own typed one here with what seemed
pertinant). Lots of goodies in there on this 'service training'.

Interestingly, he says it might be ok to teach Cash some 'pulling things'
excercises (light stuff, like a 12pack of sodas from 7-Eleven). Special
harness so he pulls with his chest. He said that one was easy and fun. No
promises there as he'd want to see him first in person of course then
carefully fit him with a harness.

He's finishing some work with some other clients then we'll see about
slotting a visit in. This time, the training is mostly with Don and Cash to
see what suits them and is fun for both. Me, I'm gonna have some happy
google time and learn a bit on real service dogs and what sort of things
they do and how they are trained, not that Cash will ever be fully trained
to those levels. Just a few little items such as are suitable.

"~Karen~" wrote
cshenk wrote:

There's only so much you can do at human running speeds. He was
practiced with 'brake' in both fun and anticipation that it may be handy
at faster speeds.

I'm sorry. I phrased this in a clumsy fashion. What I was trying to
remember was if you and your daughter had worked with "sprinting spurts
with a more sudden stop" as well as "jogging speeds and rolling stops"
while you were training.

Not 2 years ago when we started the jogging habits. Nor when leash training
in general (at the start he was about like the videos of Paul and Muttley
except he paid attention better I think? He just didn't 'know better' yet.)

There may not have been anything wrong with Dogman's advise, but his
delivery lacked a great deal

I personally didn't see much wrong with how he initially attempted to aid
you. I think you were letting the spat over which ng what should be
posted in put you on the defensive and with that you were to quick to
discount anything he might have to say on any subject.

There have been several 'spats' to the point where Paul and I pretty much
expect it from him.

Dogman never once said that you were to stop training Cash as you were. He
had only two concerns.
1) That you were properly positioning Cash in a way that would easily and
safely translate to running with a bike. Now be honest with yourself
here - you were the only one on the ng that knew that Cash "pretty much"
did that already and you didn't share that information.

Yes, it's in earlier threads. Probably mentioned in conjunction with
harness training as well as what minimal leash skills Cash had when we got
him where neck collars were used and my first trainer had us convert. That
would have been around March 2008 when we got him but posted 'about' much
more recently when Paul and I were talking about collar types.

2) When properly positioned your "rolling stop/pay attention" command
wasn't necessary. That was confirmed by your own trainer.

It never was for human running speeds or we'd have taught something like it
2 years ago for when Charlotte runs Cash.

It's just handy when going faster on a bike. Harmlessly so and he enjoyed
learning it.

Maybe she had figured out that you were feeling a bit defensive over the
whole issue and she was merely attempting to placate a new client. I was
hoping that was the case.

Don't know what she read or how much. I doubt she spent much time though
she did mention Caroline's message.

Until I asked him last week though, I don't recall him ever
mentioning he rode bikes with dogs. If he did, I missed it.

To be fair to you, I've been reading the ng for quite awhile and have
spent many hours going through archives, and when he first proposed the
"heel walking command" and how it translates into working with a bike it
was logical. I gathered from that that he had personal experience.

When he offered you the website for Springers he was obviously
disappointed for you when you discovered they wouldn't work for your
particular style of bike. He stated then that they were good pieces of
equipment. I gathered from that that he had a personal working knowledge
of them.

Yeah, it was a very good attempt and I thanked him then emailed the company
right away with my bike model. Company came right back with a picture of my
model for verification and the only way to work with the springer was to
raise the seat 2.5-3 inches which I can't do and still ride it. It's a
taller man's model and I'm 5ft1 (just able to handle it). Most bikes have a
center bar below the seat area where one will fit but this model doesn't.

Then Caroline mentioned her version and a happy google hunt lead to another
device, not a springer but one that works on my bike.

- snipped a lot of information that boils down to a wonderfully active
life for a very talented dog and his family -

Yeah, we like to do all sorts of things with Cash and Daisy. (Daisy-chan
'cat' of course doesn't train anything like a dog but if you have a cat with
issues, meet me in rpc.health+behavior).

This is the second trainer Cash has been with and both have mentioned
he's a seeming natural there. I think I may persue this and see what
works well? It can't hurt to have some fun training with Cash and Don.

You are all going to have a lot of fun!!

I'm sure we all will and thanks! He's got my email now along with the typed
up report from the lady trainer (vice my own typed one here with what seemed
pertinant). Lots of goodies in there on this 'service training'.

Interestingly, he says it might be ok to teach Cash some 'pulling things'
excercises (light stuff, like a 12pack of sodas from 7-Eleven). Special
harness so he pulls with his chest. He said that one was easy and fun. No
promises there as he'd want to see him first in person of course then
carefully fit him with a harness.

He's finishing some work with some other clients then we'll see about
slotting a visit in. This time, the training is mostly with Don and Cash to
see what suits them and is fun for both. Me, I'm gonna have some happy
google time and learn a bit on real service dogs and what sort of things
they do and how they are trained, not that Cash will ever be fully trained
to those levels. Just a few little items such as are suitable.

"~Karen~" wrote
cshenk wrote:

There's only so much you can do at human running speeds. He was
practiced with 'brake' in both fun and anticipation that it may be handy
at faster speeds.

I'm sorry. I phrased this in a clumsy fashion. What I was trying to
remember was if you and your daughter had worked with "sprinting spurts
with a more sudden stop" as well as "jogging speeds and rolling stops"
while you were training.

Not 2 years ago when we started the jogging habits. Nor when leash training
in general (at the start he was about like the videos of Paul and Muttley
except he paid attention better I think? He just didn't 'know better' yet.)

There may not have been anything wrong with Dogman's advise, but his
delivery lacked a great deal

I personally didn't see much wrong with how he initially attempted to aid
you. I think you were letting the spat over which ng what should be
posted in put you on the defensive and with that you were to quick to
discount anything he might have to say on any subject.

There have been several 'spats' to the point where Paul and I pretty much
expect it from him.

Dogman never once said that you were to stop training Cash as you were. He
had only two concerns.
1) That you were properly positioning Cash in a way that would easily and
safely translate to running with a bike. Now be honest with yourself
here - you were the only one on the ng that knew that Cash "pretty much"
did that already and you didn't share that information.

Yes, it's in earlier threads. Probably mentioned in conjunction with
harness training as well as what minimal leash skills Cash had when we got
him where neck collars were used and my first trainer had us convert. That
would have been around March 2008 when we got him but posted 'about' much
more recently when Paul and I were talking about collar types.

2) When properly positioned your "rolling stop/pay attention" command
wasn't necessary. That was confirmed by your own trainer.

It never was for human running speeds or we'd have taught something like it
2 years ago for when Charlotte runs Cash.

It's just handy when going faster on a bike. Harmlessly so and he enjoyed
learning it.

Maybe she had figured out that you were feeling a bit defensive over the
whole issue and she was merely attempting to placate a new client. I was
hoping that was the case.

Don't know what she read or how much. I doubt she spent much time though
she did mention Caroline's message.

Until I asked him last week though, I don't recall him ever
mentioning he rode bikes with dogs. If he did, I missed it.

To be fair to you, I've been reading the ng for quite awhile and have
spent many hours going through archives, and when he first proposed the
"heel walking command" and how it translates into working with a bike it
was logical. I gathered from that that he had personal experience.

When he offered you the website for Springers he was obviously
disappointed for you when you discovered they wouldn't work for your
particular style of bike. He stated then that they were good pieces of
equipment. I gathered from that that he had a personal working knowledge
of them.

Yeah, it was a very good attempt and I thanked him then emailed the company
right away with my bike model. Company came right back with a picture of my
model for verification and the only way to work with the springer was to
raise the seat 2.5-3 inches which I can't do and still ride it. It's a
taller man's model and I'm 5ft1 (just able to handle it). Most bikes have a
center bar below the seat area where one will fit but this model doesn't.

Then Caroline mentioned her version and a happy google hunt lead to another
device, not a springer but one that works on my bike.

- snipped a lot of information that boils down to a wonderfully active
life for a very talented dog and his family -

Yeah, we like to do all sorts of things with Cash and Daisy. (Daisy-chan
'cat' of course doesn't train anything like a dog but if you have a cat with
issues, meet me in rpc.health+behavior).

This is the second trainer Cash has been with and both have mentioned
he's a seeming natural there. I think I may persue this and see what
works well? It can't hurt to have some fun training with Cash and Don.

You are all going to have a lot of fun!!

I'm sure we all will and thanks! He's got my email now along with the typed
up report from the lady trainer (vice my own typed one here with what seemed
pertinant). Lots of goodies in there on this 'service training'.

Interestingly, he says it might be ok to teach Cash some 'pulling things'
excercises (light stuff, like a 12pack of sodas from 7-Eleven). Special
harness so he pulls with his chest. He said that one was easy and fun. No
promises there as he'd want to see him first in person of course then
carefully fit him with a harness.

He's finishing some work with some other clients then we'll see about
slotting a visit in. This time, the training is mostly with Don and Cash to
see what suits them and is fun for both. Me, I'm gonna have some happy
google time and learn a bit on real service dogs and what sort of things
they do and how they are trained, not that Cash will ever be fully trained
to those levels. Just a few little items such as are suitable.

"~Karen~" wrote
cshenk wrote:

There's only so much you can do at human running speeds. He was
practiced with 'brake' in both fun and anticipation that it may be handy
at faster speeds.

I'm sorry. I phrased this in a clumsy fashion. What I was trying to
remember was if you and your daughter had worked with "sprinting spurts
with a more sudden stop" as well as "jogging speeds and rolling stops"
while you were training.

Not 2 years ago when we started the jogging habits. Nor when leash training
in general (at the start he was about like the videos of Paul and Muttley
except he paid attention better I think? He just didn't 'know better' yet.)

There may not have been anything wrong with Dogman's advise, but his
delivery lacked a great deal

I personally didn't see much wrong with how he initially attempted to aid
you. I think you were letting the spat over which ng what should be
posted in put you on the defensive and with that you were to quick to
discount anything he might have to say on any subject.

There have been several 'spats' to the point where Paul and I pretty much
expect it from him.

Dogman never once said that you were to stop training Cash as you were. He
had only two concerns.
1) That you were properly positioning Cash in a way that would easily and
safely translate to running with a bike. Now be honest with yourself
here - you were the only one on the ng that knew that Cash "pretty much"
did that already and you didn't share that information.

Yes, it's in earlier threads. Probably mentioned in conjunction with
harness training as well as what minimal leash skills Cash had when we got
him where neck collars were used and my first trainer had us convert. That
would have been around March 2008 when we got him but posted 'about' much
more recently when Paul and I were talking about collar types.

2) When properly positioned your "rolling stop/pay attention" command
wasn't necessary. That was confirmed by your own trainer.

It never was for human running speeds or we'd have taught something like it
2 years ago for when Charlotte runs Cash.

It's just handy when going faster on a bike. Harmlessly so and he enjoyed
learning it.

Maybe she had figured out that you were feeling a bit defensive over the
whole issue and she was merely attempting to placate a new client. I was
hoping that was the case.

Don't know what she read or how much. I doubt she spent much time though
she did mention Caroline's message.

Until I asked him last week though, I don't recall him ever
mentioning he rode bikes with dogs. If he did, I missed it.

To be fair to you, I've been reading the ng for quite awhile and have
spent many hours going through archives, and when he first proposed the
"heel walking command" and how it translates into working with a bike it
was logical. I gathered from that that he had personal experience.

When he offered you the website for Springers he was obviously
disappointed for you when you discovered they wouldn't work for your
particular style of bike. He stated then that they were good pieces of
equipment. I gathered from that that he had a personal working knowledge
of them.

Yeah, it was a very good attempt and I thanked him then emailed the company
right away with my bike model. Company came right back with a picture of my
model for verification and the only way to work with the springer was to
raise the seat 2.5-3 inches which I can't do and still ride it. It's a
taller man's model and I'm 5ft1 (just able to handle it). Most bikes have a
center bar below the seat area where one will fit but this model doesn't.

Then Caroline mentioned her version and a happy google hunt lead to another
device, not a springer but one that works on my bike.

- snipped a lot of information that boils down to a wonderfully active
life for a very talented dog and his family -

Yeah, we like to do all sorts of things with Cash and Daisy. (Daisy-chan
'cat' of course doesn't train anything like a dog but if you have a cat with
issues, meet me in rpc.health+behavior).

This is the second trainer Cash has been with and both have mentioned
he's a seeming natural there. I think I may persue this and see what
works well? It can't hurt to have some fun training with Cash and Don.

You are all going to have a lot of fun!!

I'm sure we all will and thanks! He's got my email now along with the typed
up report from the lady trainer (vice my own typed one here with what seemed
pertinant). Lots of goodies in there on this 'service training'.

Interestingly, he says it might be ok to teach Cash some 'pulling things'
excercises (light stuff, like a 12pack of sodas from 7-Eleven). Special
harness so he pulls with his chest. He said that one was easy and fun. No
promises there as he'd want to see him first in person of course then
carefully fit him with a harness.

He's finishing some work with some other clients then we'll see about
slotting a visit in. This time, the training is mostly with Don and Cash to
see what suits them and is fun for both. Me, I'm gonna have some happy
google time and learn a bit on real service dogs and what sort of things
they do and how they are trained, not that Cash will ever be fully trained
to those levels. Just a few little items such as are suitable.