"cshenk" wrote in message
...
"Paul E. Schoen" wrote
"Dogman" wrote

Well, if he goes through with it (and I hope and pray that he
doesn't), he'd better learn how to interact with a dog, and fast,
because with a Lab, he'd no longer have any choice in the matter.

My intent was really to just try fostering a dog for the rescue. She has
probably about 30 dogs, and some of them are very difficult cases that I
know I could not handle. But she has met me and Muttley and feels that
Cici has about the right energy for us. There is someone else who is
interested, and I told her that it would be better to go that route. But
I'd like to help by lightening her load a bit.

Paul, Dogman is right I think. It's all well and good to help foster a
dog but you aren't really ready for the interaction training needed. Also
you know that Muttley is going to get very *jealous* of the new one fast
if you don't do it just right. He won't learn to interact with you with
watching another dog do it. He will instead *attack* the other dog as a
more likely scenario if you play with it more to 'show Muttley what he's
supposed to do'. Dog's don't accept a new denizen in 'their home' easily
especially if they were the only one there.

If I got it right, your friend with some 30 or so, accept 'add a dog'
where the rest know there are others and it will continue. Muttley
however has no such aspect. With proper introductions he can learn to
accept then later enjoy another dog on his 'home turf' but to assume this
is automatic, is a really BIG mistake.

Muttley seems to accept other dogs (at least now) on 'their turf'. He is
untested on his own home turf. 4 years, no other dogs there in your
livingroom, signals 'caution' to me. Definately your idea of playing with
the other one to clue Muttley in, is a red danger signal to me.

Muttley was able to tolerate having another dog, Lucky, share the house with
him for about a one month period of time in the summer of 2007. She was a
young Rottie/PBT? mix and she was just about his size although not as
powerfully built. They did engage in a lot of rough play, however, and I
think Muttley did not enjoy it. You have probably seen the pictures, but
here are some of them together in various stages of coexistence:

The good:
http://cygnus.smart.net/~pstech/Mutt...es_9160034.JPG
http://cygnus.smart.net/~pstech/Mutt...es_9160035.JPG
http://cygnus.smart.net/~pstech/Mutt...es_9160037.JPG
http://cygnus.smart.net/~pstech/Mutt...es_9160038.JPG
http://cygnus.smart.net/~pstech/Mutt...es_9160039.JPG
http://cygnus.smart.net/~pstech/Mutt...y200709-05.jpg

The bad and the ugly:
http://cygnus.smart.net/~pstech/Mutt...ht_9090029.JPG
http://cygnus.smart.net/~pstech/Mutt...ht_9090030.JPG
http://cygnus.smart.net/~pstech/Mutt...ht_9090031.JPG

I think they were just playing, but I worried that it might escalate. It
seemed even worse when they were let loose in the exercise area, but now
that I have seen videos of big dogs play-fighting, and the fact that there
was never any bloodshed and I was fairly easily able to separate them, they
probably would have been OK.

Paul and Muttley

"Paul E. Schoen" wrote
"cshenk" wrote

I still don't know why the "sit-on-it" exercise was stressed when I had
problems with Muttley's training. Apparently Janet considered it very
important, but I think Muttley needed the exact opposite. I can see its
value for training a GR or Lab or other active, playful breeds, but it
seemed ineffectual and counterproductive for an aloof dog like Muttley.

Can you describe what this means as in her 'sit on it' and when she said
to use it? It may be *almost exactly* how I trained Cash to leash to
stop pulling. I can't tell for sure though.

I still have the training materials provided by Janet but she has
previously threatened me with copyright infringement if I present the text
exactly, so I'll paraphrase it a bit. She may add any further information
or explanation for why she considered this to be so important:

Well, Paul she has a *right* to keep her information used for her livelyhood
that way.

Just like I've been asked by my government job folks to produce things that
eliminate the need for use of the system my company supports via contract.
Over time, they would not see a need to spend money to support the people
who maintain the system. It can be a delicate balancing act at times.

[Week #1 homework]: The exercise requires some free play in the leash so
the dog is able to lie down or sit close to you, while you sit on the
leash, for 30 minutes at a time. A command such as "Chill" should be used,
and the dog should not sleep, bark, paw at you, chew on treats or play
with anything. You are to ignore the dog except to apply swift corrections
for non-compliance.

Looks like trying to calm down a very active dog to me? Not sure as I lack
experience there.

Snippies

So, this info pack dealt with several types of dog behaviors? Maybe you
were supposed to direct to a particular one and the email/letter may have
even told you which?

I looked through all of the training materials and I could not find
anything about how to get and keep the dog's attention, although for
"Loose Leash Control" it says to keep your dog focused on you. How?

I dunno. Cash has no issues here unless the rare stupid squirrel runs into
the backyard while he's in there. I'll admit he centers on the squirrel
then ;-)

Maybe, the point of her set was to instill 'you control' and not let the dog
be unaware of it? That may (if it was intended he follow this one set you
mention) have been the aim?

Since Cash definately only suffers a bit of 'attention deficit disorder'
when presented with a live squirrel, I presume any specialized training you
may be advised to use, would differ from what I would be told.

Now though we see my 'sit on it' was quite different. Mine was pulling
behavior while leash walking training. He pulled, I sat down until he
calmed down. Although sitting probably isn't required, it worked for my
condition combined with Cash's size. If he pulled, I just sat down. If he
pulled too many times, we headed home. Basically if he was real bad, I
withheld a desired treat (long walk) and if he pulled just a few times I
reinforced 'I am leader' obedience training'. When good, he'd get a nice
long walk and be allowed to sniff every 5th or so 'pee-mail post' if he was
polite on how he tried to get me to go there.

"Paul E. Schoen" wrote
"cshenk" wrote

Paul, Dogman is right I think. It's all well and good to help foster a
dog but you aren't really ready for the interaction training needed.
Also

Muttley was able to tolerate having another dog, Lucky, share the house
with him for about a one month period of time in the summer of 2007. She
was a

Paul, I lack experience to be sure of those pictures. I can only tell the
'guest' was looking like she was happy to be second to Muttley. There is no
sign of 'friends' there that I can see. Tolerance. The pit with Muttley's
ear in her mouth is I think actually 'ungood'. If I got that reversed on
which had who's ear, it's just as 'ungood'.

Others, assist my learning? Isn't it threat behaviour even if not carried
out to chomping with a mere 1 month time together? I'm not sure it it
remains that with a much longer (years) association.

Paul, I'd wait on this new dog. Labs are *big* and Muttley may go really
defensive. That you've worked with him so he seems not dog aggressive when
in another dog's terratory, this may not cross over well on hs own.

"cshenk" wrote in message
...
"Paul E. Schoen" wrote
"cshenk" wrote

I still don't know why the "sit-on-it" exercise was stressed when I had
problems with Muttley's training. Apparently Janet considered it very
important, but I think Muttley needed the exact opposite. I can see its
value for training a GR or Lab or other active, playful breeds, but it
seemed ineffectual and counterproductive for an aloof dog like Muttley.

Can you describe what this means as in her 'sit on it' and when she said
to use it? It may be *almost exactly* how I trained Cash to leash to
stop pulling. I can't tell for sure though.

I still have the training materials provided by Janet but she has
previously threatened me with copyright infringement if I present the
text exactly, so I'll paraphrase it a bit. She may add any further
information or explanation for why she considered this to be so
important:

Well, Paul she has a *right* to keep her information used for her
livelyhood that way.

It's usually permitted to quote parts of text in order to make comments. And
it's not exactly anything new or secret. Since I found the reference on-line
to the "place" command it had pretty much the same information. And it's
also used by Victoria Stilwell.


Just like I've been asked by my government job folks to produce things
that eliminate the need for use of the system my company supports via
contract. Over time, they would not see a need to spend money to support
the people who maintain the system. It can be a delicate balancing act at
times.

It's interesting that at the beginning of the industrial age people dreamed
of the wonderful future where machines would do all the work and people
would be free to spend all day enjoying their free time. Now it seems that
people need to work two jobs, especially in single parent families, just to
maintain their ultimately unsustainable and wasteful fifestyle, and we have
to provide makework jobs for young people to keep them busy so they won't
get bored and get into trouble.

[Week #1 homework]: The exercise requires some free play in the leash so
the dog is able to lie down or sit close to you, while you sit on the
leash, for 30 minutes at a time. A command such as "Chill" should be
used, and the dog should not sleep, bark, paw at you, chew on treats or
play with anything. You are to ignore the dog except to apply swift
corrections for non-compliance.

Looks like trying to calm down a very active dog to me? Not sure as I
lack experience there.

Snippies

So, this info pack dealt with several types of dog behaviors? Maybe you
were supposed to direct to a particular one and the email/letter may have
even told you which?

No, this was mass produced, one-size-fits-all class material that was
xeroxed and handed out at the end of each class. But it sounds as if the
"sit-on-it" exercise was designed for highly active dogs, such as Labs and
Goldens and maybe Boxers and Border Collies.


I looked through all of the training materials and I could not find
anything about how to get and keep the dog's attention, although for
"Loose Leash Control" it says to keep your dog focused on you. How?

I dunno. Cash has no issues here unless the rare stupid squirrel runs
into the backyard while he's in there. I'll admit he centers on the
squirrel then ;-)

Maybe, the point of her set was to instill 'you control' and not let the
dog be unaware of it? That may (if it was intended he follow this one set
you mention) have been the aim?

Since Cash definately only suffers a bit of 'attention deficit disorder'
when presented with a live squirrel, I presume any specialized training
you may be advised to use, would differ from what I would be told.

Now though we see my 'sit on it' was quite different. Mine was pulling
behavior while leash walking training. He pulled, I sat down until he
calmed down. Although sitting probably isn't required, it worked for my
condition combined with Cash's size. If he pulled, I just sat down. If he
pulled too many times, we headed home. Basically if he was real bad, I
withheld a desired treat (long walk) and if he pulled just a few times I
reinforced 'I am leader' obedience training'. When good, he'd get a nice
long walk and be allowed to sniff every 5th or so 'pee-mail post' if he
was polite on how he tried to get me to go there.

Muttley's main problem was and is his lack of attention to me and fixation
on all sorts of distractions. In a group class it was just overwhelming, and
we had already slipped behind the pace of the group for various reasons. It
would have been much better for me to work with Muttley out of the group and
try to use some of the techniques you mention for loose leash walking,
heeling, and even just paying attention. I did not actually realize that it
was mostly Muttley's lack of attention that was the core of the problem. And
it did not help at all to try to force him into compliance with a heel
command in a group.

I might have had some success using treats and the simple "watch me"
exercise that is often the beginning of PR clicker training. But I learned
about that a year or two after my initial obedience class.

Paul and Muttley

On Thu, 10 Jun 2010 19:18:30 -0400, "cshenk" wrote:

"Paul E. Schoen" wrote
"cshenk" wrote

Paul, Dogman is right I think. It's all well and good to help foster a
dog but you aren't really ready for the interaction training needed.
Also

Muttley was able to tolerate having another dog, Lucky, share the house
with him for about a one month period of time in the summer of 2007. She
was a

Paul, I lack experience to be sure of those pictures. I can only tell the
'guest' was looking like she was happy to be second to Muttley. There is no
sign of 'friends' there that I can see. Tolerance. The pit with Muttley's
ear in her mouth is I think actually 'ungood'. If I got that reversed on
which had who's ear, it's just as 'ungood'.

Others, assist my learning? Isn't it threat behaviour even if not carried
out to chomping with a mere 1 month time together? I'm not sure it it
remains that with a much longer (years) association.

I don't think it's possible to assess the dogs' behavior accurately on
the basis of still pictures. That being said, I think the dogs were
probably playing. The last pictures look like Muttley was getting
pretty rough, and that could be because he doesn't particularly like
playing with other dogs and wanted her to quit trying to play with
him. Dog-aggressiveness aside, some dogs are loners, prefer to be
only dogs, and don't enjoy playing with other dogs. Muttley could be
one of those dogs.

Carol, I'm not sure what you're asking. Bitey face and chewing on
ears is not necessarily threatening behavior, especially among pups or
young dogs. Older dogs may tolerate such behavior to varying degrees
depending on a whole lot of things.

Do I think Paul should get or foster a second dog? No, I don't, and
it's got nothing to do with Muttley.

On Jun 10, 6:59*pm, "cshenk" wrote:
Looks like trying to calm down a very active dog to me? *Not sure as I lack
experience there.

Maybe, the point of her set was to instill 'you control' and not let the dog
be unaware of it? *That may (if it was intended he follow this one set you
mention) have been the aim?

When someone fails to pay attention in class, and misses parts of
class, and doesn't ask questions, it is hard for them to know what an
exercise is. It is the reason why several people can read the same
dog training book and they'll all get something (or nothing) different
from it.

The sit-on-it is a very useful exercise for all dogs. Yes, it is
particularly useful for active and nutso dogs, but it can also be a
bonding exercise for the aloof dog. IIRC, Muttley was not always
aloof, but was a dog who nudged and demanded as well, particularly
when food was involved. Using this exercise while having dinner
(something I do from the day I bring a puppy home), snacking while
watching tv, having guests, waiting at the vets and having your dog
not interact with other dogs, etc - all good uses of this exercise.
We discuss it in class, and I welcome questions. People who don't ask
questions are generally people who think they know better or aren't
bothering to do the homework.

I might have had some success using treats and the simple "watch me"
exercise that is often the beginning of PR clicker training. But I
learned about that a year or two after my initial obedience class.


"WATCHME"

I call it FIRST COMMAND, and in my home DOG's name equals to WATCHME
command. Whenever I call dogs name he/her has to look at me with an EYE
CONTACT. I teach this since puppyhood or whenever I bring a new dog home.
( REX - EYE CONTACT-TREAT )

My SECOND COMMAND is RECALL, I use word "COME", dog has to come to me
and make an EYE CONTACT. I use the same word "COME" as formal recall
when dog has to come to me, SIT within a foot and make an EYE CONTACT as
in a obedience ring. Dog make a distinction of the two form of Recall by
reading my body language. In later form I assume a formal position
(standing straight with arms down and close to the body).
--
thedalpal

"Janet" wrote
"cshenk" wrote:

When someone fails to pay attention in class, and misses parts of
class, and doesn't ask questions, it is hard for them to know what an
exercise is. It is the reason why several people can read the same
dog training book and they'll all get something (or nothing) different
from it.

Hehe, not a problem I have. I just try to not monopolize with questions. I
won't however not ask if confused (though may wait til later to ask
quietly).

The sit-on-it is a very useful exercise for all dogs. Yes, it is
particularly useful for active and nutso dogs, but it can also be a
bonding exercise for the aloof dog. IIRC, Muttley was not always
aloof, but was a dog who nudged and demanded as well, particularly
when food was involved.

Interesting! Now that i think of it, we did something 'somewhat like it'
with Cash and started first day.

We eat 'Japan style' sitting on the floor with a low table. It doubles as
our coffee table. It was oh so automatic that he needed to know 'food may
be in reach but anything on the table is not allowed'.

We'd make him sit. It was hard at first to get him to understand that was
to close but we taught what seems a bit like this (maybe). I think had we
seen your method, it may have been easier.

LOL, he's not perfect there but well enough 2 years later. We can leave a
plate of food and go to the bathroom and he won't do more than 'sniff'.
Thats further defined that he must have nose at least 1 foot away at all
times and no begging at the table. He is allowed to beg after we are done
and have brought the dishes to the kitchen if there's anything he is allowed
to eat left.

BTW, took him to petsmart for a weigh in (had to get dogfood and Catfood).
55.5 lbs. Had to let the chest band out just a touch. Rib band the same
size.

"cshenk" wrote in message
...
"Janet" wrote
"cshenk" wrote:

When someone fails to pay attention in class, and misses parts of
class, and doesn't ask questions, it is hard for them to know what an
exercise is. It is the reason why several people can read the same
dog training book and they'll all get something (or nothing) different
from it.

Hehe, not a problem I have. I just try to not monopolize with questions.
I won't however not ask if confused (though may wait til later to ask
quietly).

I admit to having arrived late on two occasions, when I really should have
come as much as 1/2 hour ahead, so Muttley and I could socialize a bit and
calm down. But by that time we were hopelessly behind and really needed to
work on basics such as attention.


The sit-on-it is a very useful exercise for all dogs. Yes, it is
particularly useful for active and nutso dogs, but it can also be a
bonding exercise for the aloof dog. IIRC, Muttley was not always
aloof, but was a dog who nudged and demanded as well, particularly
when food was involved.

Interesting! Now that i think of it, we did something 'somewhat like it'
with Cash and started first day.

Muttley was never really demanding of attention, although he did get very
excited if I opened a can of dog food or had other high value stuff. I did
ask for help when I mentioned that Muttley would snatch a rawhide chew from
my hand, but at the training class he would not take treats from Janet, so
there was nothing to work on. Since that time I have had him sit and wait
while I put food in his bowl, and not eat until I give him the OK.

He also used to be more "rude" about greeting people, by jumping up, but I
have also worked on that and he is pretty good unless someone encourages the
behavior.

You can see from the following videos that he is good about waiting politely
for food:

http://www.youtube.com/user/PaulAndM...35/AekBKrOTUHQ
http://www.youtube.com/user/PaulAndM...34/5iYxGWkOWEM
http://www.youtube.com/user/PaulAndM...33/m8fadzaA3c4

We eat 'Japan style' sitting on the floor with a low table. It doubles as
our coffee table. It was oh so automatic that he needed to know 'food may
be in reach but anything on the table is not allowed'.

We'd make him sit. It was hard at first to get him to understand that was
to close but we taught what seems a bit like this (maybe). I think had we
seen your method, it may have been easier.

LOL, he's not perfect there but well enough 2 years later. We can leave a
plate of food and go to the bathroom and he won't do more than 'sniff'.
Thats further defined that he must have nose at least 1 foot away at all
times and no begging at the table. He is allowed to beg after we are done
and have brought the dishes to the kitchen if there's anything he is
allowed to eat left.

He's usually good about counter-surfing, but a while ago I had the remains
of a glazed ham on a countertop and I had forgotten it was there. I heard a
noise from the kitchen area and he trotted past me with the bone in his
mouth. I grabbed a piece of meat that was still worth eating, but let him
continue to his "place" to finish it.

BTW, took him to petsmart for a weigh in (had to get dogfood and Catfood).
55.5 lbs. Had to let the chest band out just a touch. Rib band the same
size.

Seems like he's getting more muscle rather than fat.

Paul and Muttley

"Paul E. Schoen" wrote
"cshenk" wrote

there was nothing to work on. Since that time I have had him sit and wait
while I put food in his bowl, and not eat until I give him the OK.

I don't worry on that one. If it's in his bowl, it's fair game.

Japan style' sitting on the floor with a low table. It doubles as

He's usually good about counter-surfing, but a while ago I had the remains
of a glazed ham on a countertop and I had forgotten it was there. I heard
a noise from the kitchen area and he trotted past me with the bone in his
mouth. I grabbed a piece of meat that was still worth eating, but let him
continue to his "place" to finish it.

Countersurfing? I'm assuming well out of normal head reach. I'm eating on
a japan type table. It may be a reach for a chichiwawa
but not for a normal beagle (much less Cash). If Muttley is hitting a
regular kitchen counter, ya got issues there still to work on.

BTW, took him to petsmart for a weigh in (had to get dogfood and
Catfood). 55.5 lbs. Had to let the chest band out just a touch. Rib
band the same size.

Seems like he's getting more muscle rather than fat.

Seems so! Inch loss, not that much weight loss.