Although I think this belongs more in .health, but I'm posting in .behaviour
too, because it is a behaviour, too, sort of.

I've been raw-feeding my 3 year old Cavalier King Charles Spaniel, Kiba for
three months now. We started this because he suffers awful allergies,
although both the vet and I are fairly convinced that his triggers are more
environmental than diet-caused. He has been tested, and showed a myriad of
things he's allergic to. While we awaited the test results, I started him
on raw food. Now, in my area, spring and summer are TERRIBLE for Kiba's
allergies. He has actually herniated a disk in his back by flailing his
head violently side to side to chew on his back. It's sad and terrible to
see him so itchy. We've treated him symptomatically, of course, but I
wanted a better solution. So, we started with raw feeding, although I was
already feeding him a premium, no-grain kibble (Orijen brand-6 stars at
dogfoodanalysis.com).

We started raw feeding him on March 6th. The last hot spot Kiba chewed on
his flank was March 16th. He hasn't had much of any reaction since. His
test came back with allergic reactions to a whole spectrum of things.
Cedar: I live in the Pacific Northwest in a cedar forest! Fescue, rye and
timothy grasses, ragweed, sorrel: yikes!! Willow, walnut, and sycamore
trees. *sigh* All kinds of fungii found in the dirt. He's freakin'
allergic to US!! Well, to our skin cells, human epithelials. *sigh* again.
Housedust/mites. Yep and I'm no housekeeper. On to foods: Chicken,
soybean, lamb, barley, potato, carrots, and mildly: wheat. Yikes again!!
Anyone who has started in raw feeding knows that we start with a base of
chicken and work up from there!! *sigh, sigh* again!

He's allergic to some fabrics, but not tobacco smoke. I wish he had that
one. Maybe my daughter would quit smoking if I told her it would make him
sick? But, yippee, he's allergic to HOUSE FLIES!! Who the hell is allergic
to house flies?! My dog. The great hunter of house flies. He and my
husband are fly hunting fools. Kiba spots 'em, Paul knocks 'em out of the
air, Kiba eats 'em. Great team. No more. *sigh* Mild allergic reaction
to fleas and mosquitoes.

But before I was delivered this news, we had started raw feeding, feeding
mostly chicken and turkey, with beef, pork, and organ meats filling in. And
his allergies went away. Well, not totally, but enough that this is the
quietest spring we've had. He has licked a couple of toes, not bare of
hair, but just enough to leave that weird red protein stain. He doesn't
violently kick his ears trying to scratch inside them, he doesn't
frantically chew on his back, trying to eat his way under the skin to
swallow the itchies. He has lost a bit of weight (he gained while laid up
with the herniated disk in his back for five months). He's sleek and good
looking. And even my protesting vet can't argue with success. I've read
Dr. Lonsdale and Dr. Eliasen's books, and give Kiba a supplement, just to
"be sure". Dr. Eliasen is a proponent of fasting. His book lays out the
reasons why, which have to do with a canine's digestive system, and makes
sense to me. So, we've been doing that. I started out just fasting Kiba
once a week, and now we fast every other day. It's working out very well
for us. I'm sorry for the length of this post, but I thought you needed
some background. And on to the point of this whole post:

I've noticed a pattern in Kiba's energy. I wasn't sure I was seeing it
correctly at first, but I've been really paying attention the last couple of
weeks, and know it's there. On feeding days, Kiba is his usual self.
Content to laze around, and cuddle in laps, not too demanding for play,
content to rest, not dogged out, but my normal Kiba. NON-feeding days, a
whole different story. His energy goes way up, and he's much more active,
asking to play fetch, playing with his toys alone if we are unavailable,
busy, busy, busy. Last night (a fasting day) he had the zoomies like I
haven't seen since he was a tiny pup. He rampaged, he attacked his toys and
killerated them with great abandon! He dashed from indoors and out, and
back again. He dared me to play with him, but couldn't stay still long
enough for me to grab hold of the other end of the toy. It was very
entertaining, and charming. I see this energy level on fasting days. Now,
Dr. Eliasen says it's because that's how long it takes for a dog's digestive
system to finish it's job. It needs the "feast AND famine" model to work
properly. I think I am seeing the proof of this in Kiba's behaviour. Has
anyone else experienced this? Of course, I am very happy that Kiba is
asymptomatic as far as his allergies go, too. But I would like to hear if
anyone else is seeing the same pattern as I am.

Thanks, Phyrie

On Jun 2, 4:03*am, "Phyrie" wrote:
Although I think this belongs more in .health, but I'm posting in .behaviour
too, because it is a behaviour, too, sort of.

I've been raw-feeding my 3 year old Cavalier King Charles Spaniel, Kiba for
three months now. *We started this because he suffers awful allergies,
although both the vet and I are fairly convinced that his triggers are more
environmental than diet-caused. *He has been tested, and showed a myriad of
things he's allergic to. *While we awaited the test results, I started him
on raw food. *Now, in my area, spring and summer are TERRIBLE for Kiba's
allergies. *He has actually herniated a disk in his back by flailing his
head violently side to side to chew on his back. *It's sad and terrible to
see him so itchy. *We've treated him symptomatically, of course, but I
wanted a better solution. *So, we started with raw feeding, although I was
already feeding him a premium, no-grain kibble (Orijen brand-6 stars at
dogfoodanalysis.com).

We started raw feeding him on March 6th. *The last hot spot Kiba chewed on
his flank was March 16th. *He hasn't had much of any reaction since. *His
test came back with allergic reactions to a whole spectrum of things.
Cedar: I live in the Pacific Northwest in a cedar forest! *Fescue, rye and
timothy grasses, ragweed, sorrel: yikes!! *Willow, walnut, and sycamore
trees. **sigh* *All kinds of fungii found in the dirt. *He's freakin'
allergic to US!! *Well, to our skin cells, human epithelials. **sigh* again.
Housedust/mites. *Yep and I'm no housekeeper. *On to foods: Chicken,
soybean, lamb, barley, potato, carrots, and mildly: wheat. *Yikes again!!
Anyone who has started in raw feeding knows that we start with a base of
chicken and work up from there!! **sigh, sigh* again!

He's allergic to some fabrics, but not tobacco smoke. *I wish he had that
one. *Maybe my daughter would quit smoking if I told her it would make him
sick? *But, yippee, he's allergic to HOUSE FLIES!! *Who the hell is allergic
to house flies?! *My dog. *The great hunter of house flies. *He and my
husband are fly hunting fools. *Kiba spots 'em, Paul knocks 'em out of the
air, Kiba eats 'em. *Great team. *No more. **sigh* *Mild allergic reaction
to fleas and mosquitoes.

But before I was delivered this news, we had started raw feeding, feeding
mostly chicken and turkey, with beef, pork, and organ meats filling in. *And
his allergies went away. *Well, not totally, but enough that this is the
quietest spring we've had. *He has licked a couple of toes, not bare of
hair, but just enough to leave that weird red protein stain. *He doesn't
violently kick his ears trying to scratch inside them, he doesn't
frantically chew on his back, trying to eat his way under the skin to
swallow the itchies. *He has lost a bit of weight (he gained while laid up
with the herniated disk in his back for five months). *He's sleek and good
looking. *And even my protesting vet can't argue with success. *I've read
Dr. Lonsdale and Dr. Eliasen's books, and give Kiba a supplement, just to
"be sure". *Dr. Eliasen is a proponent of fasting. *His book lays out the
reasons why, which have to do with a canine's digestive system, and makes
sense to me. *So, we've been doing that. *I started out just fasting Kiba
once a week, and now we fast every other day. *It's working out very well
for us. *I'm sorry for the length of this post, but I thought you needed
some background. *And on to the point of this whole post:

I've noticed a pattern in Kiba's energy. *I wasn't sure I was seeing it
correctly at first, but I've been really paying attention the last couple of
weeks, and know it's there. *On feeding days, Kiba is his usual self.
Content to laze around, and cuddle in laps, not too demanding for play,
content to rest, not dogged out, but my normal Kiba. *NON-feeding days, a
whole different story. *His energy goes way up, and he's much more active,
asking to play fetch, playing with his toys alone if we are unavailable,
busy, busy, busy. *Last night (a fasting day) he had the zoomies like I
haven't seen since he was a tiny pup. *He rampaged, he attacked his toys and
killerated them with great abandon! *He dashed from indoors and out, and
back again. *He dared me to play with him, but couldn't stay still long
enough for me to grab hold of the other end of the toy. *It was very
entertaining, and charming. *I see this energy level on fasting days. *Now,
Dr. Eliasen says it's because that's how long it takes for a dog's digestive
system to finish it's job. *It needs the "feast AND famine" model to work
properly. *I think I am seeing the proof of this in Kiba's behaviour. *Has
anyone else experienced this? *Of course, I am very happy that Kiba is
asymptomatic as far as his allergies go, too. *But I would like to hear if
anyone else is seeing the same pattern as I am.

Thanks, Phyrie

I've never thought much of the fasting approach (my dogs think even
less of it ;-D), but if it's working for you and Kiba, that's great.
I'm glad you found a food that is working for his allergies though.
Allergies in humans or canines can be a huge source of frustration and
illness. Knock on wood, *I* seem to be the only one with them around
here, although Rudy doesn't handle poultry all that well.

Interesting - I had a session with a private training client recently,
discussing food allergy. Reading the ingredients on the "fish"
premium kibble, I was amazed to see an awful lot of poultry in the
ingredient list. It seems the only label reading many people do is
the product name, not the actual ingredient list.

"Janet" wrote in message
...

I've never thought much of the fasting approach (my dogs think even
less of it ;-D), but if it's working for you and Kiba, that's great.
I'm glad you found a food that is working for his allergies though.
Allergies in humans or canines can be a huge source of frustration and
illness. Knock on wood, *I* seem to be the only one with them around
here, although Rudy doesn't handle poultry all that well.

Interesting - I had a session with a private training client recently,
discussing food allergy. Reading the ingredients on the "fish"
premium kibble, I was amazed to see an awful lot of poultry in the
ingredient list. It seems the only label reading many people do is
the product name, not the actual ingredient list.

Heh. I did a great deal of research on dog food before I even brought Kiba
home. I chose one that had actual food in it, and ingredients I recognized
as edible. If I couldn't pronounce it, or even know what it was, I figured
it probably wasn't good for my dog!

Even though Kiba really likes treats, he doesn't seem to mind fasting at
all. He fasted himself on occasion before we started raw feeding, so
perhaps he's naturally inclined to it. He does do a happy dance under the
food dish on feeding days, though!

Kiba's allergies seem to be seasonal. Why the raw feeding is helping, I
have no idea, since when we started, we gave him a great deal of chicken.
Until the allergy tests came back positive to chicken! I still give him
chicken, just less, although he doesn't seem to react to it. The vet
doesn't understand it either, and it really makes the testing process
suspect. I assume it's because he's not being subjected to a LOT of
reactors at the same time. In the Orijen there is four or five things he
tested positive to, so perhaps stopping that was enough for him to remain
symptom free, even when the pollen count is very high. I don't know, but
heck, it's working; who cares why?

Phyrie

On Wed, 2 Jun 2010 16:30:25 -0700, "Phyrie"
wrote:



"Janet" wrote in message
...

I've never thought much of the fasting approach (my dogs think even
less of it ;-D), but if it's working for you and Kiba, that's great.
I'm glad you found a food that is working for his allergies though.
Allergies in humans or canines can be a huge source of frustration and
illness. Knock on wood, *I* seem to be the only one with them around
here, although Rudy doesn't handle poultry all that well.

Interesting - I had a session with a private training client recently,
discussing food allergy. Reading the ingredients on the "fish"
premium kibble, I was amazed to see an awful lot of poultry in the
ingredient list. It seems the only label reading many people do is
the product name, not the actual ingredient list.

Heh. I did a great deal of research on dog food before I even brought Kiba
home. I chose one that had actual food in it, and ingredients I recognized
as edible. If I couldn't pronounce it, or even know what it was, I figured
it probably wasn't good for my dog!

Even though Kiba really likes treats, he doesn't seem to mind fasting at
all. He fasted himself on occasion before we started raw feeding, so
perhaps he's naturally inclined to it. He does do a happy dance under the
food dish on feeding days, though!

Kiba's allergies seem to be seasonal. Why the raw feeding is helping, I
have no idea, since when we started, we gave him a great deal of chicken.
Until the allergy tests came back positive to chicken! I still give him
chicken, just less, although he doesn't seem to react to it. The vet
doesn't understand it either, and it really makes the testing process
suspect. I assume it's because he's not being subjected to a LOT of
reactors at the same time. In the Orijen there is four or five things he
tested positive to, so perhaps stopping that was enough for him to remain
symptom free, even when the pollen count is very high. I don't know, but
heck, it's working; who cares why?

I've been told that food allergy testing in dogs is pretty unreliable,
but I don't know how true that is.

"sighthounds & siberians" wrote in message
...

I've been told that food allergy testing in dogs is pretty unreliable,
but I don't know how true that is.

I think so, too. Both my vet and I think Kiba's allergies are environmental
and seasonal. I find it easier to believe he's allergic to cedar pollen
than chicken. He presents with symptoms only at certain times of the year,
usually spring and summer. His dry food has chicken meat as it's first
ingredient. Why isn't he symptomatic in the winter? He's still eating the
same kibble (well, was, you know what I mean...). Nothing has changed,
except the season. The only thing I've changed this spring is his diet.
So, I have to assume that is what made the difference, which throws my
theory of environmental allergies out the window. It's weird. And I feel
like I paid the vet $450 for nothing. The allergy test is interesting, but
not as useful as I thought. I've bought a better vacuum cleaner (for the
housedust/mites), we don't let Kiba eat houseflies anymore, and I've reduced
his raw chicken consumption to almost none. I can do nothing about the
cedar trees, or other trees he tested positive to. I don't give him carrots
as treats any more. But he was symptom free before I did all that stuff.
The only REAL difference is the food. So, what is he allergic to? What is
causing his symptoms, and why aren't they doing it right now? I don't know.
But I suppose in the long run, it doesn't matter. As long as he is symptom
free, I'm happy. But I would still like to know, just for my own
information.

Phyrie

"Dogman" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 02 Jun 2010 19:45:44 -0400, sighthounds & siberians
wrote:


I've been told that food allergy testing in dogs is pretty unreliable,
but I don't know how true that is.

It's true. And applies to humans too:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/12/he...me&ref=general

"People who receive a diagnosis after one of the two tests most often
used - pricking the skin and injecting a tiny amount of the suspect
food and looking in blood for IgE antibodies, the type associated with
allergies - have less than a 50 percent chance of actually having a
food allergy, the investigators found."

--
Dogman

r.p.d.behavior - For the discussion of canine behavior, obedience
training, problems, fixes, etc.
r.p.d.health - For the discussion of canine health issues.
r.p d.activities - For the discussion of canine activities, e.g., agility,
field trials, etc.
r.p d.breeds - For the discusion of various canine breeds, standards,
and breeding info.
r.p.d.rescue - For the discussion of canine rescue, adoption, etc.
r.p.d.misc - For the discussion of any other canine topic, photo
links, etc.
r.p.d.info - Official newsgroup, breed, activity, etc., FAQs.

They did blood tests on Kiba, not the prick test. The prick tests CAN be
done, but they involve shaving half your dog, and are only done by doggie
dermatologists. Which I don't have available to me. I am pretty sure that
he's NOT allergic to chicken, although the tests say he is. Chicken got the
second highest score of the whole test, after house fly. *sigh*

Phyrie

On Wed, 2 Jun 2010 17:21:05 -0700, "Phyrie"
wrote:



"Dogman" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 02 Jun 2010 19:45:44 -0400, sighthounds & siberians
wrote:


I've been told that food allergy testing in dogs is pretty unreliable,
but I don't know how true that is.

It's true. And applies to humans too:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/12/he...me&ref=general

"People who receive a diagnosis after one of the two tests most often
used - pricking the skin and injecting a tiny amount of the suspect
food and looking in blood for IgE antibodies, the type associated with
allergies - have less than a 50 percent chance of actually having a
food allergy, the investigators found."



--
Dogman

r.p.d.behavior - For the discussion of canine behavior, obedience
training, problems, fixes, etc.
r.p.d.health - For the discussion of canine health issues.
r.p d.activities - For the discussion of canine activities, e.g., agility,
field trials, etc.
r.p d.breeds - For the discusion of various canine breeds, standards,
and breeding info.
r.p.d.rescue - For the discussion of canine rescue, adoption, etc.
r.p.d.misc - For the discussion of any other canine topic, photo
links, etc.
r.p.d.info - Official newsgroup, breed, activity, etc., FAQs.

They did blood tests on Kiba, not the prick test. The prick tests CAN be
done, but they involve shaving half your dog, and are only done by doggie
dermatologists. Which I don't have available to me. I am pretty sure that
he's NOT allergic to chicken, although the tests say he is. Chicken got the
second highest score of the whole test, after house fly. *sigh*

I'd say that if he's tolerating chicken without allergy symptoms, who
cares what the tests said.

"Dogman" wrote in message
...


PS: Did my reply to your request for some help on recall help you out?
Any questions?

--
Dogman

I'm sorry. I should have replied. Yes, it did help. I've taken out the
Leslie Nelson pamphlet and video and read the book last night. Mr. (Ms.?)
Nelson makes it seem very doable, even for me! I have yet to view the DVD,
but I will soon. I realize that Kiba is probably halfway there already. He
was outside last night, barking at something, and I stepped into the doorway
to call him in. I whistled for him (I used my thumb and middle finger in a
circle to whistle. When it works (90% of the time) it's very loud. I can't
whistle with just my mouth alone) and he came RUNNING for me. I was quite
surprised, actually, as it was dark, and I'm sure he was barking at some
critter in the back. I tried it again later, too. Same thing. He came
dashing up to me. I can't say he will do it all the time, but we're going
to work on it.

I also own a shepherd's whistle, but I'm not very good at it. I sent away
for it from the Alberta Cattle Dog Association. I need to practice away
from Kiba, though, and he's very seldom away from me! I have a couple of
minutes alone in the car going to the post office each day, but it's
literally only a few minutes. If I could wear it around my neck, I think I
might be able to steal a few more minutes to practice, but I'm allergic to
base metal, and it gave me a big rash when I tried to wear it. But Kiba
DOES come to it. I can't think of a time he hasn't. But we need to
practice much, much more before I will say he has recall.

Phyrie

"sighthounds & siberians" wrote in message
...

I'd say that if he's tolerating chicken without allergy symptoms, who
cares what the tests said.

Thanks. Yeah, that's what we're going on. Not being able to feed chicken
would be a pain in the ass. Living where we do, we don't have the variety
available to someone who lives in a city.

Phyrie

I think so, too. *Both my vet and I think Kiba's allergies are environmental
and seasonal.

I know of at least one human case where there were a half dozen things
that always caused a reaction, but it turns out that none of them were
the real culprit, the gentleman in question was allergic to wheat
gluten. When he stopped eating gluten, his body stopped reacting to
all the other items that used to set him off, even though the gluten
by itself didn't cause much of a reaction. Sort of a compound effect.

Perhaps something similar is going on with Kiba, one or two things are
the real culprit, and once those are taken out of the diet, his
reaction to all those other things that used to cause problems is much
less...?

Just a thought,
--Glenn Lyford