"Alison" wrote in message
...
"Paul E. Schoen" wrote in message
...

" I know you are trying to be helpful, but as long as Dogman keeps
lifting his leg and peeing all over this thread I don't think it is going
to be very useful. But thanks anyway.


Hi Paul, I meant to add a more constructive post but left it as I thought
you were away for the weekend. I've been using a camera to film bits of
dibby heeling with a treat but it's difficult holdong camera etc .
Good advice from sonofdog.
Dogman is really annoying and enjoys taking a pop at you but sometimes he
writes things that are worth reading.
There is a post where he comments on a link you gave. This one os worth
reading.

Yes, those are good points. There are other videos that may be helpful as
well:

The PreMack Principle:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcB1zttZmdY&NR=1

Secret to LLW:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sg79NBOS8es&NR=1

Leash walking:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jm-MA...eature=related

Training not to pull:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFgtqgiAKoQ&NR=1

There are some good ideas in all of these. But I think it would be helpful
to show the progress of a dog who is not trained, rather than these
demonstrations of the finished product. It would also be interesting to show
a timeline of this progress. I am probably trying to get the whole package
done in too short a timeframe. And when I see a little progress, I may tend
to think that the problem is solved and the work is done. But I can see that
what appears to be working better in the familiar home environment does not
translate to success in new, distracting situations.

Thanks,

Paul and Muttley

"Paul E. Schoen" wrote

Sometimes he goes right from "sit" to "down" and I wanted the action to
fit the command, so I rewarded the "down", rather than trying to fix the
"sit".

oops (grin).

Paul, it occurs to me that there's a chance Muttley may react better to
things if it's a more relaxed sort of training. Maybe too many imperfectly
understood commands at once is related?

Cash isn't a 'treat' trained fellow. He's more the pat on the head and a
special 'scritch' sort. When he's really good, he gets a 'Domo' (a kyushu
Japan sort of slang for 'thanks' though it doesn't mean exactly that in
direct translation). Nothing wrong with treats of course, just wasn't how
Don was used to doing it so I followed his lead.

I remember in the first days Don was telling me the dog was never allowed to
walk out the door infront of us. It's a leadership thing and he was still
learning us and 'who's alpha' (or who's who in the zoo as I like to say).
So, I'd bring out the leash and he'd get all excited and want to run out the
door. I'd just stop and stand there until he settled down then give him a
pat with a 'good boy' as he stood beside me. It often (in early days) took
quite a few tries until he was calm enough he knew I went out first.

In those days he wasn't very slack leash at all. He'd pull and I'd just sit
down on the grass until he settled beside me no longer pulling (a smile then
we'd walk a bit again). He got the hint fairly fast that 'pulling' meant
he'd be stopped and the walk may even end early, but if he didn't pull he'd
get a nice longer walk. This developed over time to slack leash and I guess
I shortened the leash in resulting in where he walks now.

I think if I had pet him everytime he settled next to me in the grass, I
might have reinforced pulling. Don said something like that so I didn't.
Memory fades but I think it took most of the summer to get him reliable and
even today he likes to 'stray' but only a gentle tug with me and will not
stray when running with Charlotte. (he made one oops that caused a teary
eyed badly skninned knee kid to limp back home and I've never seen a more
abject puppy in my life. Never again when running did that).

I don't know how long it's supposed to take but I'm guessing an older dog
might take a little longer than a true puppy? They may, by previous owners,
have gained some bad habits that needed to be trained out of them?

This seems pretty good as well:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFgtqgiAKoQ&NR=1

I can really begin to see how very wrong my first experiences with obedience
training were, especially in regards to keeping Muttley's attention and
performing the "heel". This video makes it look easy, and I know it won't
be, but at least it shows that a dog can be trained without yanking and
tugging and "fighting" with him, which is what I was doing in the class.

Sometimes it can be hard to reverse something that was learned early on, and
that negative experience really affects my expectations of outcomes now. I
think there is also an opposition reflex in learning, so I tend to reject
and go against anything that someone tries to teach me by force or by using
derision and ridicule. So I can't read Dogman's posts without immediately
going on the defensive and opposing anything he says, even if it may be good
advice.

Paul and Muttley

On 6/6/2010 9:18 AM, Paul E. Schoen wrote:

.. So I can't read Dogman's posts
without immediately going on the defensive and opposing anything he
says, even if it may be good advice.

When I read this I immediately thought of responses I would receive from
other people in my life if I were to make a comment like this.

My best friend of many decades would state: "It sounds like a personal
problem to me."

Either one of my parents would have said (even at my age today): "You
need to grow up."

In the work environment there is a note posted above a desk: "He who
angers you conquers you."

All of that OT stuff aside: It's good to see you working with your dog.

Karen

On 2010-06-05 22:58:01 -0500, sonofdog said:

Paul, I have missed this video but now I see you have done a really good
job. Best thing I like about it is that Muttley is very animated and happy
to work hard for those treats. Now you have to work on yourself, this is
what I mean: you need to be consistent at what position you give a treat
to Muttley (lets say "classic heel position') and give him treat
exclusively at this position(and do it all the time on the move, you add
stops later) otherwise you teaching him to many thing at once.
(as video shows: sit and down and both in different positioning,)

While you walk and Muttley is in a heel position use treats frequently
for as long until you get the desired position of Muttley, then you will
be able to extend interval of rewards, then make intervals variable and
in final wean it out of it. To get to a final it takes a lot of time, do
not rush things.

I'm one who has successfully trained a number of dogs and have scored
well with them in obedience trials. One thing which I never did was to
reward the dogs with treats, choosing instead to reward them with a few
lovingly applied pets. My feeling is that petting does indeed signal to
the dog that it is doing what you want it to do.

--
James Leo Ryan -- Austin, Texas --

On Sun, 06 Jun 2010 16:15:07 -0400, Dogman wrote:

On Sun, 6 Jun 2010 06:33:02 +0000 (UTC), sonofdog wrote:

On Sun, 06 Jun 2010 01:08:08 -0400, Paul E. Schoen wrote:

And if
"heel" is not appropriate, what command should I use to get him to go
forward on a loose leash?

at the moment Muttley's heeling is not perfect yet so you need no
command, just let him forge forward, and when you need/want him beside
just use "heel" command to bring him back to desired position.

He should look upon his walks as training opportunities. For example, he
should be using the leash *and* a long-line on his walks. The long-line
should have a choke collar on one end. When he leaves the house, he
should "heel" Muttley to the start of the trail, on his leash. And work
on his "heel" command on the way. For a good 5-10 minutes. Starts and
stops, left turns, right turns, figure 8s, automatic sits, etc. Typical
heeling drills. Then he should affix the long-line (with choke collar
attached, for safety purposes)

Nice to see you again Dogman ;-)

Please tell me what kind of safety in the above case choke collar
provides ? IMO it may only lead to injury of them both, Muttley's and
Paul's.

Dogman, I have no comments on your post, I even see your advice valuable
to some extent but you are not answering to Paul question he has given,
you neither correct my answer to Paul so what's your point ?

Another thing, please remember that Paul is not interested in FORMAL
execution of commands as it is done in obedience ring. Paul will get
there in a while I'm sure, yet let it be Paul's pleasure to do some
experiments. In addition to it he would like (I believe so) to train his
dog with LOVE and that excludes choke or prong collars.

With regards
--
thedalpal

On Sun, 06 Jun 2010 16:17:13 -0500, TaliesinSoft wrote:

On 2010-06-05 22:58:01 -0500, sonofdog said:

Paul, I have missed this video but now I see you have done a really
good job. Best thing I like about it is that Muttley is very animated
and happy to work hard for those treats. Now you have to work on
yourself, this is what I mean: you need to be consistent at what
position you give a treat to Muttley (lets say "classic heel
position') and give him treat exclusively at this position(and do it
all the time on the move, you add stops later) otherwise you teaching
him to many thing at once. (as video shows: sit and down and both in
different positioning,)

While you walk and Muttley is in a heel position use treats frequently
for as long until you get the desired position of Muttley, then you
will be able to extend interval of rewards, then make intervals
variable and in final wean it out of it. To get to a final it takes a
lot of time, do not rush things.

I'm one who has successfully trained a number of dogs and have scored
well with them in obedience trials. One thing which I never did was to
reward the dogs with treats, choosing instead to reward them with a few
lovingly applied pets. My feeling is that petting does indeed signal to
the dog that it is doing what you want it to do.

That is fine, no problems with it on this side.
TOUCH ca be a reward too. Paul just discovered how keenly his dog
responds to treats. I do not see why he should not use it to an
advantage ? Do you ?

Regards
--
thedalpal

"sonofdog" wrote
Dogman wrote:

He should look upon his walks as training opportunities. For example, he
should be using the leash *and* a long-line on his walks. The long-line
should have a choke collar on one end. When he leaves the house, he
should "heel" Muttley to the start of the trail, on his leash. And work
on his "heel" command on the way. For a good 5-10 minutes. Starts and
stops, left turns, right turns, figure 8s, automatic sits, etc. Typical
heeling drills. Then he should affix the long-line (with choke collar
attached, for safety purposes)

Please tell me what kind of safety in the above case choke collar
provides ? IMO it may only lead to injury of them both, Muttley's and
Paul's.

I think he may be meaning if Muttley goes amuck. I don't see that in the
videos.

Dogman, I have no comments on your post, I even see your advice valuable
to some extent but you are not answering to Paul question he has given,
you neither correct my answer to Paul so what's your point ?

I have a feeling that level of training is too intense (above) for Paul or
Muttley just now.

Another thing, please remember that Paul is not interested in FORMAL
execution of commands as it is done in obedience ring. Paul will get
there in a while I'm sure, yet let it be Paul's pleasure to do some
experiments. In addition to it he would like (I believe so) to train his
dog with LOVE and that excludes choke or prong collars.

I don't find anything wrong in thinking things out and taking time. It's
probably less confusing to the dog.

I know if I threw that much at Cash at once with an improperly understood
word, it wouldnt be fun. It would be just frustrating for him.

"Paul E. Schoen" wrote in message
...
This seems pretty good as well:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFgtqgiAKoQ&NR=1

yes . I like kikopup.

"Paul E. Schoen" wrote in message
...

" It is helpful to have a video to see what I am doing wrong.

yes, it's helpful. I've looked at mine and I look like I'm auditioning for
a Walk like an Egyptian video.
Muttley looks happier in your video than some of the dogs in the video
links you gave but he wasn't sure what you wanted him to do . He was
looking for ways to earn that treat.

. Mostly I need Muttley to pay attention. In the video he was paying
attention to the treat more than me,
and I hurried things along just to get a starting point for comments and
suggestions.

I think that was the problem. You were thinking too much of the video and
what we would think instead of concentrating on training Muttley and
teaching him to to heel. In the first part you were walking and holding
the treat up and he was trying to sit to get treat and 36 secs in you were
treating him for sitting, you needed to reward for heeling only. You spent
more time rewarding him for sit and down than for him walking by your
side.
Are you able to walk faster than in the video? It helps when you
start to teach heel if you can walk at a reasonable pace that's more
natural for the dog. A dog has to have good balance to walk at a slow
human pace. It's also said that it's easier to teach a dog to heel by
starting when he is off the lead so perhaps you could do that in your back
yard first .
Also, when you walk on a loosish lead, when the dog gets a head and
the lead is tight stop and then take a step forward to be level with him.
If he stays still and the lead is loose again , walk on. You can use this
method if you don't want to use treats. He learns that if the lead goes
tight , he isn't going anywhere.
Bear in mind that in the vids most of those dogs are already trained and
they make it look easy and it isn't when you first start.
You've looked at loads of vids, had loads of advice . You dont need all of
that. You need to make up your mind which method you want to use , I assume
PR, and stick to it. Make sure you are doing it right and have the
patience to let Muttely work out what you want him to do.
Al