"sonofdog" wrote in message
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On Sun, 06 Jun 2010 16:15:07 -0400, Dogman wrote:


. Then he should affix the long-line (with choke collar
attached, for safety purposes)

IMO it may only lead to injury of them both, Muttley's and
Paul's.


I was thinking about injury to Muttley, the same with headcollars. I would
use a long line with a harness.
Al

"Alison" wrote in message
...
"sonofdog" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 06 Jun 2010 16:15:07 -0400, Dogman wrote:


. Then he should affix the long-line (with choke collar
attached, for safety purposes)

IMO it may only lead to injury of them both, Muttley's and
Paul's.


I was thinking about injury to Muttley, the same with headcollars. I would
use a long line with a harness.

I have no problem using a choke collar, but the flat Martingale that I use
is just fine; there is less chance of damage, and he has not been able to
get out of it, because he only pulls forward.

Actually, I have heard that the much-maligned prong collar actually causes
less injury than any other, assuming it is properly fitted and of good
quality with rounded prong tips like the one I have now. The custom made
prong collar I got from Janet had smaller prongs but they had relatively
sharp edges. However, as Dogman has sarcastically noted, it is not the
collar that does the training, and in any case it should not be used as
punishment. As such, no collar or harness was effective on Muttley and I
could (and did) lift him off his feet which was the only way to keep him
from pulling when he was distracted. And that lasted only until his feet
went back on the ground.

Paul and Muttley

"Dogman" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 6 Jun 2010 22:48:41 +0000 (UTC), sonofdog
wrote:

[...]

Please tell me what kind of safety in the above case choke collar
provides ? IMO it may only lead to injury of them both, Muttley's and
Paul's.

Sure. A choke collar can't slip off, which is why you always see choke
collars on protection and various service dogs when they're out in
public. If Muttley decides to chase a squirrel (gets excited), and if
Schoen then grabs the line, Muttley can't slip the collar, like he
could other collars, if Muttley decides to give him the finger.

Muttley also can't (or won't) slip the flat Martingale, and even the
anti-pull harness holds him well enough. He pulls away forward, not backing
away, which he would need to do so as to get loose. The videos were made
with him wearing only the simple flat fabric collar with a plastic snap
fastener.


Millions of dog trainers and dog owners have used choke collars to
train their dogs, and without causing the slightest injury. I've been
doing it myself for over 60 years. The last thing I want to see is
Muttley get injured. I also don't want to see him crushed by a Fed-Ex
truck.

The only way Muttley has gotten loose has been to break his tether or
somehow get unclipped. One time he did get loose from an anti-pull harness
because I was not paying attention. I don't intend to let him off-leash,
unless it's in a safely fenced-in area. Training him to stay by my side
won't do any good if he gets loose when I'm not watching him. And when he
has, nothing bad has happened and he eventually came right back to me and
didn't struggle to get away. But he did stay out to enjoy his freedom for
quite a while.

Dogman, I have no comments on your post, I even see your advice valuable
to some extent but you are not answering to Paul question he has given,
you neither correct my answer to Paul so what's your point ?

I thought that was pretty obvious. No command is necessary here,
except a "release" command, e.g., "Okay!. And there was nothing wrong
with your answer. I just expanded on it.

Schoen could just release him to do his thing. Let Muttley wander down
the trail at his own pace, and only interfere if and when he goes too
far, or you want him to move in another direction, or he takes off
after a squirrel, etc. Which are all training *opportunities.* All the
while keeping an eye on the long-line, dragging along behind him, just
in case.

Got it now?

Dogman, you can talk directly to me, and I will listen nicely and not engage
in verbal sparring if you treat me with as much respect as you do SonOfDog,
even. But you always seem to have the need to throw in some nasty zingers
and vulgarity, which makes me respond in kind.


Another thing, please remember that Paul is not interested in FORMAL
execution of commands as it is done in obedience ring.

No ****? I never would have guessed that.

But don't you think that Muttley should have to obey Schoen's
commands? Especially the ones that can save his life? So it's got
nothing to do with "formal" training or obedience rings. Just some
reasonable obedience to basic commands, some of which can save
Muttley's life. You don't want to see Muttley end up as road kill, do
you? Or do you?

As explained above, training will not guarantee Muttley's safety, but I'm
certainly interested in having him walk better on a loose leash and pay
attention and have a decent recall.


Paul will get there in a while I'm sure,

Well, we've seen what 4 years can accomplish, right?

Not much.

I'd like to see it done before Muttley gets hit by a truck. How about
you?

Again, you are fixated on this scenario. But what would one of your
well-trained dogs do if he were clipped on a tether outside and somehow got
loose while you were not there? Would he come around to your front porch and
scratch on the door? If there were a busy road in front of your house, could
you guarantee that he would not cross it? Does obedience training take care
of that? Muttley takes advantage of the times he gets loose to go exploring.
And when he's had enough, he comes home. The last time this happened I was
calling his name and he snuck up behind me and practically put his snout in
my hand. I actually felt bad about clipping his leash on. I am 99% certain
he would have just followed me back to the house unleashed. But that 1% made
me play it safe.


In addition to it he would like (I believe so) to train his
dog with LOVE and that excludes choke or prong collars.

Please, spare me the anthropomorphic kumbaya. The choke collar is
there as a SAFETY precaution. God forbid that Schoen would actually
ever learn how to use one for training. He's doesn't even know what a
collar pop is. And that's not how we're using it here, as a "training"
collar.

But let's say he has all that love and kindness, and just puts, say, a
buckled collar on him, and then Muttley slips it, runs out on to the
road and ends up as road kill. How kind is that?

Look, at this point, I have no expectations that Schoen will ever
really train his dog, but now I've given him a few more ways to do
that, that require no more trainers, no more collars, no more books,
etc. Just a little effort on his part, and some common sense. And
besides, someone else looking in, who finds him or herself in a
similar situation, might get something out of it.

Schoen's going to do it his way anyway. That's why Schoen, after 4
years of trying, still can't trust Muttley off leash.

I really haven't spent all that time trying. And my experience has been that
Muttley has been OK off-leash, but I worry about the dangerous road. All the
training in the world will not allow me to have him off-leash, so I have
concentrated on giving him socialization opportunities and trying to figure
out why he haqs problems with young male Black Labs. He has come a long way
since Janet proclaimed him to be a dangerous dog in need of euthanasia.

My videos are just a starting point and certainly show some good things and
some not so good. At least I have the courage to post these, raw and uncut,
as a first attempt, and they help me to see what is wrong which may be
obvious to experienced dog trainers. As has been pointed out, the other
videos I found are demonstrations of what the final results are with a
trained dog. They make it look easy. I thought it would be easy using
treats, which I had not really tried before. With a little more practice at
timing and consistency, and especially with getting Muttley's attention, I'm
sure things will improve.

I'm still waiting for you or others to show how you train your dogs, or even
better, how you do when first trying to train a dog who has never been
trained properly or successfully. And one who, in my estimation and that of
others, is a relatively "hard", headstrong, aloof, independent, and
"dominant" type. He is certainly not the best sort of dog for a beginner to
tackle, but I really was, and still am, his only hope.

And considering that a professional dog trainer said he would probably never
be safe to allow in public, perhaps even with intensive one-on-one sessions
with a behaviorist, I think I've done pretty well for an "average" guy. Some
"average" people, even dog owners, have commended me on how well Muttley is
trained, and how nicely he behaves. So I think I've done at least "OK". And
I intend to improve, but I won't expect perfection.

Paul and Muttley
www.muttleydog.com

"Dogman" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 6 Jun 2010 20:30:41 -0400, "Paul E. Schoen"
wrote:


I was thinking about injury to Muttley, the same with headcollars. I
would
use a long line with a harness.

I have no problem using a choke collar, but the flat Martingale that I use
is just fine; there is less chance of damage, and he has not been able to
get out of it, because he only pulls forward.

Then use the Martingale! But don't let him run all the way to the end
of the line at full speed anyway, get off your fat ass and move
*towards* him if he takes off on you, and use your arm(s) to cushion
any pulling, and train him on the "come" or "sit" commands, so that
you can use those commands to help get him to stop.

As such, no collar or harness was effective on Muttley and I
could (and did) lift him off his feet which was the only way to keep him
from pulling when he was distracted. And that lasted only until his feet
went back on the ground.

Why the hell would you ever need to lift him off the ground???

Now *that* could cause injury, no matter what collar were using.

Jeez.

Well, I did it in Janet's professional obedience class under the watchful
eyes of her and her instructors, and she didn't intervene or tell me it was
wrong. But then again maybe I assume too much by saying she was watching. I
think she enjoyed watching me struggle and create frustration for myself and
my dog, and the redirected aggression caused injury to a student and her
dog. That is a big reason why I don't trust dog trainers.

Paul and Muttley

On Sun, 06 Jun 2010 20:29:33 -0400, Dogman wrote:

On Mon, 7 Jun 2010 01:08:07 +0100, "Alison"
wrote:

It's also said that it's easier to teach a dog to heel by starting when
he is off the lead

Who says?

You need to make up your mind which method you want to use, I assume PR,

That's it? Just R+?

Good luck with that!

When Muttley is lying there under that Fed-Ex truck, maybe you could
walk over and say "Good boy, Muttley!" or give him a treat.


Dogman, when you get this excited you loosing all your invention,
or you never seen a UPS truck ? ;-)

On Sun, 06 Jun 2010 22:34:02 -0400, Dogman wrote:

On Mon, 7 Jun 2010 02:21:08 +0000 (UTC), sonofdog wrote:

On Sun, 06 Jun 2010 20:29:33 -0400, Dogman wrote:

On Mon, 7 Jun 2010 01:08:07 +0100, "Alison"
wrote:

It's also said that it's easier to teach a dog to heel by starting
when he is off the lead

Who says?

You need to make up your mind which method you want to use, I assume
PR,

That's it? Just R+?

Good luck with that!

When Muttley is lying there under that Fed-Ex truck, maybe you could
walk over and say "Good boy, Muttley!" or give him a treat.

Dogman, when you get this excited you loosing all your invention,

Is English your first language?


no, it is not

or you never seen a UPS truck ? ;-)

I have no idea what that means.

you fixed on Fed-Ex, I prefer UPS ;-)

On 2010-06-06 17:52:48 -0500, sonofdog said:

[in response to my having stated]

I'm one who has successfully trained a number of dogs and have scored
well with them in obedience trials. One thing which I never did was to
reward the dogs with treats, choosing instead to reward them with a few
lovingly applied pets. My feeling is that petting does indeed signal to
the dog that it is doing what you want it to do.

That is fine, no problems with it on this side.
TOUCH ca be a reward too. Paul just discovered how keenly his dog
responds to treats. I do not see why he should not use it to an
advantage ? Do you ?

The problem with using treats as a reward is that the dog continues to
expect them. A well trained dog should do so just for knowing that it
is pleasing its master. I have three friends who are totally blind (and
that is the term they prefer over "visually impaired") that have seeing
eye dogs upon which they are strongly dependent and none of them reward
their dogs with other than praise, that is, no treats.


--
James Leo Ryan -- Austin, Texas --

On Sun, 06 Jun 2010 23:04:18 -0500, TaliesinSoft wrote:

On 2010-06-06 17:52:48 -0500, sonofdog said:

[in response to my having stated]

I'm one who has successfully trained a number of dogs and have scored
well with them in obedience trials. One thing which I never did was to
reward the dogs with treats, choosing instead to reward them with a
few lovingly applied pets. My feeling is that petting does indeed
signal to the dog that it is doing what you want it to do.

That is fine, no problems with it on this side. TOUCH ca be a reward
too. Paul just discovered how keenly his dog responds to treats. I do
not see why he should not use it to an advantage ? Do you ?



The problem with using treats as a reward is that the dog continues to
expect them.

until you replaced it with another praise (touch ?)

A well trained dog should do so just for knowing that it is
pleasing its master.

for now dog is pleasing its master for receiving treats, later it may
please its master for something else

question: do you allow a dog to be pleased by its master ?
(treats) for work well done.


I have three friends who are totally blind (and
that is the term they prefer over "visually impaired") that have seeing
eye dogs upon which they are strongly dependent and none of them reward
their dogs with other than praise, that is, no treats.

special training for special needs, isn't it ?
and I believe that you also know that once a while this dogs do go
for retraining, blind handlers get instructions and refreshments too.

If you think using treats while training will create problems for you,
do something else, choice is yours. If you think dog will prefer do the
tricks while in prong collar go for it.

No one here advocates only one way of doing training of dogs.
I did not noticed that, did you ?

"TaliesinSoft" wrote in message
...

The problem with using treats as a reward is that the dog continues to
expect them. A well trained dog should do so just for knowing that it is
pleasing its master. I have three friends who are totally blind (and that
is the term they prefer over "visually impaired") that have seeing eye
dogs upon which they are strongly dependent and none of them reward their
dogs with other than praise, that is, no treats.

But we're not talking about WELL-TRAINED dogs, we're talking about training
dogs. My dog can sit. Do I give him a treat every time I tell him to sit
and he does it? NO. But did I give him a treat every time he did it when I
asked when he LEARNING to sit? Damn straight. It's a contract we made
together. You do something I ask, I will reward you. That doesn't have to
mean treats. Just so happens my dog loves my homemade treats. But would
you work for no pay? NO. And I don't expect my dog to, either.

Phyrie

"sonofdog" wrote in message
...

you fixed on Fed-Ex, I prefer UPS ;-)

So you are just picking a fight for no reason? In any language, that's
pissy.

I get that you don't speak English well, but you seem quite capable of
insulting people in English.