Hi,

I've just got (what appears to be) a 9 month old neutered male poodle/
schnauzer mix from a local animal rescue. For the most part, the dog
behaves well except on walks. When he meets others dogs, he starts off
OK (sniffing, etc), but he eventually tries to put his paws on their
back (which I understand is a sign he is trying to dominate the other
dog) and eventually both dogs get wound up. I've been lucky so far, in
that the other dogs I've met haven't been of a very aggressive nature,
but this is something I obviously want to stop.

I've gone online, and nothing I've seen seems to be of much use. I do
get a very strong sense that my dog is somewhat fearful of new
situations. He is definitely very wary of anything new in his
environment. If someone is approaching him from behind on one of our
walks, he'll keep turning back to look at them. New objects (bright
fire hydrants or stone lawn animals) can startle him. I try to calm
him down by going over to the object, standing behind it and leaning
over it, to show him I can "dominate" the object and nothing happens
to me. He then will come over, sniff at it, and on subsequent walks
will have no reaction. But other dogs, I don't know how to deal with.

Help!

Matt

On Wed, 23 Jun 2010 08:01:03 -0700 (PDT), Junoexpress
wrote:

Hi,

I've just got (what appears to be) a 9 month old neutered male poodle/
schnauzer mix from a local animal rescue. For the most part, the dog
behaves well except on walks. When he meets others dogs, he starts off
OK (sniffing, etc), but he eventually tries to put his paws on their
back (which I understand is a sign he is trying to dominate the other
dog) and eventually both dogs get wound up. I've been lucky so far, in
that the other dogs I've met haven't been of a very aggressive nature,
but this is something I obviously want to stop.

I'm assuming your dog is on leash at these times? Don't let him get
on other dogs' backs. Praise him when he interacts appropriately with
other dogs he meets, correct him with a mild "uh-uh" and pull him away
when he tries to put his paws on their backs. Putting paws on other
dogs' backs, humping them, etc. is often dominant behavior and
regardless of your dog's motivation, it is not appreciated by other
dogs.

I've gone online, and nothing I've seen seems to be of much use. I do
get a very strong sense that my dog is somewhat fearful of new
situations. He is definitely very wary of anything new in his
environment. If someone is approaching him from behind on one of our
walks, he'll keep turning back to look at them. New objects (bright
fire hydrants or stone lawn animals) can startle him. I try to calm
him down by going over to the object, standing behind it and leaning
over it, to show him I can "dominate" the object and nothing happens
to me. He then will come over, sniff at it, and on subsequent walks
will have no reaction. But other dogs, I don't know how to deal with.

I think you're overdoing it with the objects; your dogs doesn't need
to know you can dominate fire hydrants or lawn animals. He probably
just hasn't seen them and doesn't know what they are, so lead him over
to them and let him sniff and explore them. Ignore fearful behavior,
praise "brave" behavior such as approaching objects that intimidate
him.

sighthounds & siberians wrote:
I'm assuming your dog is on leash at these times? Don't let him get
on other dogs' backs. Praise him when he interacts appropriately with
other dogs he meets, correct him with a mild "uh-uh" and pull him away
when he tries to put his paws on their backs.

I'd be just a bit more proactive. Actually, I *am* just a bit more
proactive. Praise him when he interacts appropriately with other dogs he
meets, but call him away from the other dog BEFORE he acts inappropriately.
Then reward, make that REWARD!, and go on your way.

I'm wary of associating the correction with leaving the other dog (and,
coincidentally, with coming to me) instead of with the inappropriate social
behavior(s). With Caris and Ranger, I'm pretty sure they can remain polite
for only a short interval before feeling compelled to correct the other
dog's manners and/or appearance, so when they politely meet another dog I
try to recapture their attention at a point when I can praise/reward the
whole interaction. Ranger, in particular, "forgets" that he can walk away.

--
Mary H. and the restored Ames National Zoo:
The Right Reverand Sir Edgar "Lucky" Pan-Waffles;
U-CD ANZ Babylon Ranger, CD, RE; ANZ Pas de Duke, RN;
Caris, CGC and rotund Rhia

On 6/23/2010 5:36 PM, Dogman wrote:
On Wed, 23 Jun 2010 20:51:52 +0000 (UTC), Mary Healey
wrote:

sighthounds& wrote:
I'm assuming your dog is on leash at these times? Don't let him get
on other dogs' backs. Praise him when he interacts appropriately with
other dogs he meets, correct him with a mild "uh-uh" and pull him away
when he tries to put his paws on their backs.

I'd be just a bit more proactive. Actually, I *am* just a bit more
proactive. Praise him when he interacts appropriately with other dogs he
meets, but call him away from the other dog BEFORE he acts inappropriately.

How do you know he's going to act inappropriately?

Or does your dog just always act inappropriately?

[...]
I'm wary of associating the correction with leaving the other dog (and,
coincidentally, with coming to me) instead of with the inappropriate social
behavior(s).

How would he ever know what was "INappropriate social behavior" if you
didn't communicate to him what that was by immediately correcting it
when it happened?

I dunno, I don't see anything to be wary of here. I think you might
find yourself calling your dog away from so many dogs that he might
stop interacting with other dogs altogether, which could happen just
as easily, I would think.

With Caris and Ranger, I'm pretty sure they can remain polite
for only a short interval before feeling compelled to correct the other
dog's manners and/or appearance,

Is it possible that they just don't know what INappropriate behavior
is because you've never communicated to them what that was?

Again, I'm all for rewarding good behavior, but I think it's
counterproductive to do *only* that, to the exclusion of correcting
bad or unwanted behavior.

Which, I suppose, makes me a meanie, not a softie.

And I can live with that!

--
Dogman

It's called distraction and it's very effective as a training tool.
You'd not know that though.

Char

"Dogman" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 23 Jun 2010 21:23:07 -0400, Char
wrote:

[...]
I dunno, I don't see anything to be wary of here. I think you might
find yourself calling your dog away from so many dogs that he might
stop interacting with other dogs altogether, which could happen just
as easily, I would think.

With Caris and Ranger, I'm pretty sure they can remain polite
for only a short interval before feeling compelled to correct the other
dog's manners and/or appearance,

Is it possible that they just don't know what INappropriate behavior
is because you've never communicated to them what that was?

Again, I'm all for rewarding good behavior, but I think it's
counterproductive to do *only* that, to the exclusion of correcting
bad or unwanted behavior.

Which, I suppose, makes me a meanie, not a softie.

And I can live with that!

--
Dogman

It's called distraction and it's very effective as a training tool.
You'd not know that though.

What Sally said to do, say "uh-uh", is also a distraction. And in
conjunction with being pulled away, also a correction (P+). And
praising the dog for behaving appropriately is R+. Lots of things
could be going on there.

Distractions are effective, but so are corrections, and so is R+, and
they not only work much faster, they actually teach the dog something.
But a distraction alone, while possibly preventing a behavior that may
or may not be about to occur, teaches the dog nothing.

As a dog trainer, I prefer teaching dogs not only what to do, but what
not to do, because the results are more effective, and come much
quicker. There are four quadrants to operant conditioning. Why anyone
would want to limit herself to just one is always a mystery to me, but
then I'm not a religious fanatic, like you are, who cares only about
style and not results.

Just like your mentor, Jerry "The Phony" Howe, you're all show and no
go, Char-latan. A one-trick pony.

Frankly, I'm very surprised that you didn't blame vaccinosis, or
eating kibble, for this dog's behavior.

Why?

Because you're a freakin' maroon.

I do think Char's remark was uncalled for here. We can discuss the relative
merits of distraction and blocking as taught by "positivists" like Victoria
Stilwell, compared to trainers with a full toolbox, such as Cesar Millan or
any of the probable majority of successful trainers who are willing and able
to deal with more dominant and aggressive dogs.

My own experience is limited to Muttley, and for a short time, Lucky. I have
tried to analyze what has caused Muttley on some occasions to have a go at
other dogs, and some recent experiences have helped me perhaps to get closer
to finding the answer.

A little over two weeks ago Muttley and I visited a dog rescue and the owner
urged me to let Muttley off-leash with her pack of dogs, ranging from a
Yorkie with a dangerous lack of bite inhibition to a wolf hybrid. I was
happy to see him interact very well with all of them, and the main thing I
noticed was his general independence and aloofness. I put together a short
video of our visit:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YjI1RJ3vfY

The visit went well, but at one point one of the dogs in the feral pack had
a problem and was yelping and whining, and when the owner was carrying him
to another kennel Muttley jumped up and nipped him. But she said that was
just normal dog behavior and may have been his attempt to give a
"correction" for the wrong sort of energy.

Last Saturday we attended Dogfest at the Timonium Fair Grounds and as we
were leaving the ticket area and I wasn't paying close attention, apparently
Muttley nipped at a young yellow Lab, causing him to yelp. I immediately
gave Muttley a correction and he sat down and looked at me. But fortunately
the owner brought his dog back to allow them to see each other so as to
minimize any negative effects of the encounter. Here is a movie of the event
(but not that particular incident).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8diczhqvovs

My feeling is that Muttley is just not very playful and would rather be left
alone by other dogs, so if they encroach on his comfort zone he may issue a
correction in the form of a quick bite and release. Also I think he has a
tendency to challenge a new dog with a stare, and if the other dog reacts
aggressively he will go on the offensive. So, in a sense, he does induce
other dogs to get aggressive as the OP asserts.

There are a couple of interesting discussions in the CM forum that deals
with similar issues and also the ongoing debate of "positive" vs
"traditional" methods. Here is a thread that discussed Victoria Stilwell,
and it shows the futility and danger of using P- as in turning ones back on
a dog exhibiting behavior that causes injury:
http://community.sessionswithcesar.c...s/t/33607.aspx

This thread is on "Submission or Suppression" as applied to PR and aversive
corrections:
http://community.sessionswithcesar.c...s/t/33783.aspx

This is a new thread by a dog trainer with a dominant female BC:
http://community.sessionswithcesar.c...s/t/33810.aspx

And this ongoing thread is about criticism of Cesar's methods by some
trainers:
http://community.sessionswithcesar.c...s/t/33164.aspx

Paul and Muttley
www.muttleydog.com

On Jun 23, 4:51*pm, Mary Healey wrote:

I'd be just a bit more proactive. *Actually, I *am* just a bit more
proactive. *Praise him when he interacts appropriately with other dogs he
meets, but call him away from the other dog BEFORE he acts inappropriately. *
Then reward, make that REWARD!, and go on your way.

I tried something like this last night.
I was out walking my dog, and a large Golden Retriever we've
encountered once before, came over. The last time the Golden came over
things started to get out of hand, and I simply ended it by telling
him "enough" in a stern voice and he went back across the street.
So yesterday, the Golden came over, and I knew he was not a high
threat, so I let my dog interact with him. My dog sniffs him and I
praise him, but he doesn't notice because he's focused on the other
dog. I figure I'll stop it while things are going well, and when I try
to pull my dog away, this probably made the situation worse, because
my dog started pulling more towards the Golden, began to get hyper,
etc. I was able to tell the Golden to go away and get my dog away from
the situation, but I know there will be dogs I encounter with which
this might not work. I've already had to push away a 150 lb Mastiff,
and I don't want to do that again!

In retrospect, I think I need to find some way to get my dog's
attention if I am going to try this scheme of leading him away before
things go bad. If I start trying to lead him away without him being
focused on me, it won't work. Maybe a piece of cheese under the nose
after he's had a good interaction and a peppy "come on!" might do
it.


Ranger, in particular, "forgets" that he can walk away.

That's a good one! ;)

Matt

On Jun 24, 12:18*am, "Paul E. Schoen" wrote:


My own experience is limited to Muttley, and for a short time, Lucky. I have
tried to analyze what has caused Muttley on some occasions to have a go at
other dogs, and some recent experiences have helped me perhaps to get closer
to finding the answer.

Which one was Muttley? Was the German Shepard or the black (Lab?).

happy to see him interact very well with all of them, and the main thing I
noticed was his general independence and aloofness. ...
My feeling is that Muttley is just not very playful and would rather be left
alone by other dogs, so if they encroach on his comfort zone he may issue a
correction in the form of a quick bite and release. Also I think he has a
tendency to challenge a new dog with a stare, and if the other dog reacts
aggressively he will go on the offensive. So, in a sense, he does induce
other dogs to get aggressive as the OP asserts.

I think your dog is different than mine. In my case, I think my dog's
behavior is a mixture of curiosity and a bit of fear/wariness. But in
any case, what do you do? Try to avoid these types of situations
(which is difficult to do), lead him away before things get bad, or
try to have him be able to politely get by the encounter without
things getting out of hand?

Good Luck,

Matt

On Jun 23, 5:36*pm, Dogman wrote:

How do you know he's going to act inappropriately? *

Or does your dog just always act inappropriately?

I'm not sure if you intended the question for me or for the OP, but
I'll respond, because I think the point is important to my situation.
To answer you're first question: I don't know. It is something I
*sense*. The sniffing phase begins to morph into a phase where both
dogs are kind of walking faster in a circle around me, and I can sense
the energy is not good. This question is a good one because to be
honest, I don't really know what happens. I find myself leaving these
encounters asking myself "What the heck just happened?" and being
confused.
I should tape one of these events. Maybe being able to see what is
happening and how I react might help me get a better perspective.
I'm also going to wait next time until I actually see him put his paws
on the other dog's back before reacting. I didn't before because I was
trying to avoid my dog getting into "the red zone" as Cesar Milan
always says and trying to stop him before he got started.

As far as him always acting inappropriately; absolutely not. I set
clear "boundaries, rules, and limitations" and my dog obeys them very
well. It's just on walks that things go pear shaped.

Thanks!

Matt

On Thu, 24 Jun 2010 10:17:08 -0700 (PDT), Junoexpress
wrote:


I should tape one of these events. Maybe being able to see what is
happening and how I react might help me get a better perspective.
I'm also going to wait next time until I actually see him put his paws
on the other dog's back before reacting.

Why on earth would you do that? Really, don't let your dog put his
paws on another dog's back. The other dog is just about guaranteed to
view that as highly inappropriate behavior, and for you to allow it to
happen before reacting is just asking for trouble. Many dogs would
react to that by snapping, and believe me, you don't want to have to
break up a dog fight. If you think he's going to do that, take him
away from the other dog. I sincerely hope you have him on leash and
that you're not allowing him to interact with other dogs off leash.

On Jun 24, 1:43*pm, sighthounds & siberians wrote:
On Thu, 24 Jun 2010 10:17:08 -0700 (PDT), Junoexpress

wrote:

I should tape one of these events. Maybe being able to see what is
happening and how I react might help me get a better perspective.
I'm also going to wait next time until I actually see him put his paws
on the other dog's back before reacting.

Why on earth would you do that? *Really, don't let your dog put his
paws on another dog's back. *The other dog is just about guaranteed to
view that as highly inappropriate behavior, and for you to allow it to
happen before reacting is just asking for trouble. *Many dogs would
react to that by snapping, and believe me, you don't want to have to
break up a dog fight. *If you think he's going to do that, take him
away from the other dog. *I sincerely hope you have him on leash and
that you're not allowing him to interact with other dogs off leash.

He is on leash.

As you can see from my other posts, your idea, while it sounds nice
and simple, doesn't seem to be working.
In the end, it seems to me there are really two questions he
first, how do I get him separated before an incident occurs (see my
previous post regarding this problem)?
second, *should* my goal be to separate him before things get bad or
should my goal be for him to be able to interact with other dogs sans
incidents?

I'm inclined to think the latter. Perhaps I should consult a dog
trainer for more help.


Thanks,

Matt