On Fri, 08 Oct 2010 01:45:55 -0700, Phyrie wrote:

but I
feel a bit better that she's eating "some" wet/raw food. She's nine
now, and doesn't take kindly to change, but she'll eat the turkey neck.
If it's fresh. She's not happy if it's been in the fridge for a day or
two!

take it out of fridge 3-4 hrs before serving, maybe it is just too cold
for her




Kiba is happy to clean up after her. I really don't know if it's
making any difference, but I feel better, so that's good, I guess...

"Phyrie" wrote
"cshenk" wrote

My own experience is cats free feed well on quality dry (unlike many dogs
who will over eat it seems, especially scent hounds). Cats get picky
though about wet being 'fresh'. Most of mine have refused to touch any
wet that has been out more than 3-4 hours.

Hmmm. I've been thinking about Spyder's diet lately. She eats Orijen dry
kibble (a high end brand) and she's fine. Healthy and all that. But I

Yes, that is a good one.

worry. So I've started to give her a 1.5 inch chunk of turkey neck, along
with the kibble. She's a hunter, so she has that, but I feel a bit better
that she's eating "some" wet/raw food. She's nine now, and doesn't take
kindly to change, but she'll eat the turkey neck. If it's fresh. She's
not happy if it's been in the fridge for a day or two! Kiba is happy to
clean up after her. I really don't know if it's making any difference,
but I feel better, so that's good, I guess...

I think this is an excellent idea. Daisy-chan (cat) as well as the dogs get
an augmented feeding too but they also get the prepared stuff (wet for
Daisy, occasional quality kibble for contrast and BW kibble for the dogs).
I feel I'm covering the vitamin and mineral angles well this way and adding
extra with the selected raw items we add.

Sammy gets his first neck tonight. Cash sadly inhales that sort too fast so
he's getting fingerling fish and chicken gizzards, hearts, and livers. I'll
not risk Cash choking to death just because 'raw sounds so cool'. Sammy
doesn't have those issues so the parts not safe for Cash go to Sammy. I
don't think we will try chicken legs on Sammy. Athough he loved the wings,
it was obvious come the 3rd one he was getting a tired jaw dealing with
them. We'll stick to 2 wings with bones and the rest softer meat. The
chicken neck tonight is just one. I'll fill out with more gizzrds, livers
and hearts for Sammy. Oh, and Daisy gets 1 of the smaller fingerlings
tonight ;-)

"sonofdog" wrote
Phyrie wrote:

If it's fresh. She's not happy if it's been in the fridge for a day or
two!

take it out of fridge 3-4 hrs before serving, maybe it is just too cold
for her

Probably that isn't the issue with a cat. They vary a lot between wild
types as to carrion acceptance but your standard house breed is pretty picky
(unless starving) about raw meats from my experience. They are happy to
have them still defrosting though if they were frosen when still very fresh.

Now wet canned and cats? Different. That has to be allowed to come pretty
close to room temp for most cats.

Hehe they are *cats* and logic has no part of their mix.

"cshenk" wrote in message
...
Sammy gets his first neck tonight. Cash sadly inhales that sort too fast
so he's getting fingerling fish and chicken gizzards, hearts, and livers.
I'll not risk Cash choking to death just because 'raw sounds so cool'.
Sammy doesn't have those issues so the parts not safe for Cash go to
Sammy. I don't think we will try chicken legs on Sammy. Athough he loved
the wings, it was obvious come the 3rd one he was getting a tired jaw
dealing with them. We'll stick to 2 wings with bones and the rest softer
meat. The chicken neck tonight is just one. I'll fill out with more
gizzrds, livers and hearts for Sammy. Oh, and Daisy gets 1 of the smaller
fingerlings tonight ;-)

Is Sammy a small dog? My Kiba can crunch up turkey necks easily, and he's a
small dog. He can't manage a beef rib bone, though. Maybe Sammy just needs
to build his jaw muscles up a bit?

"Phyrie" wrote
"cshenk" wrote

Sammy gets his first neck tonight. Cash sadly inhales that sort too fast

(snippies)

Sammy. I don't think we will try chicken legs on Sammy. Athough he loved
the wings, it was obvious come the 3rd one he was getting a tired jaw
dealing with them. We'll stick to 2 wings with bones and the rest softer

PS: Sammy loved his chicken neck! 1 was just right. 2 will be fine.

Is Sammy a small dog? My Kiba can crunch up turkey necks easily, and he's
a small dog. He can't manage a beef rib bone, though. Maybe Sammy just
needs to build his jaw muscles up a bit?

Hehe Sammy I think of as 'small' but technically he's taller than Cash
(longer legs) and at 35 lbs is 'medium'. Cash is 52lbs of solid short
muscle and big bone.

Sammy is 17 years old, possibly up to 19 (they are only sure he is at least
17 due to vet records but not sure he isnt up to 19). I kinda doubt he's
going to build up jaw muscles much. He's a total heinz57. About the only
thing pretty sure not in there is any mastiff or bull dog. He's not a heavy
built sort of fellow though not what I'd call a complete sight hound build
either. He can't even lift Cash's favorite bones until Cash chomps them in
half (then he can carry the pieces but normally just noses them over). For
his age, his teeth are in great shape but he is not and never has been a
strong jawed sort of fellow.

On 10/7/2010 5:43 PM, cshenk wrote:
"sighthounds & siberians" wrote
"cshenk" wrote:

Thats ok.
Full wet is better but if careful to use the better (low ash) drys,
she'll
be ok.

Are you thinking of urinary tract problems? Low ash was the thinking
years ago, then it was low magnesium. The ash content in grain-free
formulas is actually higher than in other formulas. See:

http://www.onlynaturalpet.com/Knowle...x?articleid=84


I think you are right. I mixed it up a bit. Either way, I think wet is
generally better for cats but that doesn't mean there's no such thing as
a perfectly healthy cat on quality dry kibble.

There is no quality dry kibble, especially for cats. Cats were meant to
eat foods that have a lot of water in them. Same for dogs. It is that
dryness that causes problems with kidneys and such.


My own experience is cats free feed well on quality dry (unlike many
dogs who will over eat it seems, especially scent hounds). Cats get
picky though about wet being 'fresh'. Most of mine have refused to touch
any wet that has been out more than 3-4 hours.


http://rawfed.com/myths/premium.html
Myth: THE AVAILABILITY OF MANY GOOD-QUALITY PREMIUM KIBBLED DIETS MAKES
RAW UNNECESSARY .

This may seem fairly logical at first glance. After all, there are some
rather high-quality foods on the market like Timberwolf Organics, Innova
EVO, Nature's Variety, and Solid Gold. Whole Dog Journal regularly
publishes a list of the top 20 commercial foods that includes some top
brands from smaller companies. All the health problems associated with
commercial food are related to lower quality, 'supermarket' brand
kibbles, right? Besides, the pet food industry has been taking steps
forward in terms of pet nutrition, haven't they? There is a good variety
of healthy, 'premium' kibbles on the market, and feeding one of these to
our pets does reap certain benefits when compared to their cheaper-fed
counterparts (feed less food, smaller stool size, better coats, better
energy, etc.). Granted, if you feed a premium kibble then you are
feeding your pet a better quality food, but could your pet be fed even
better food for cheaper? Is a premium kibble an appropriate food for
your pets?

There are several high-quality kibbles on the market today, but there
are still several significant issues that set raw diets apart from these
premium kibbles. Let us look at several of the issues posed by premium
kibbles.

1.) It is still a processed food. This means it has still been rendered,
overly cooked, overly processed, and still has artificial vitamins and
supplements added to it. Despite the claims of what went into this food
at the start, this means the ingredients are still of a poorer quality
when compared to fresh, whole, raw foods, and that problems associated
with artificial vitamins and minerals still exist: erratic growth
patterns, growth occurring too fast, the body not utilizing the
nutrients as well, etc. While the better quality foods certainly do
start with better materials, after processing these 'food' materials are
still of a lesser quality compared to the fresh, raw, real thing.

2.) It still is an unnatural food for our pets. Our dogs and cats are
not designed to eat processed food pellets regardless of how good of
quality these processed food pellets are. A premium kibble would be like
us eating a 'premium' cereal day in and day out; the premium cereal has
to be better for us than one of those cheaper cereals, right (think of
Raisin Bran versus Captain Crunch)?

3.) Premium kibbles still have a bunch of ingredients our pets do not
need and/or cannot utilize. Many premium kibbles contain a relatively
small amount of meat (usually from 'human quality' sources, but then it
is rendered into an unrecognizable 'foodstuff') even if meat is listed
as the first ingredient, because the rest of the ingredients combined
far outweigh the presence of the meat our carnivores need (remember,
meat, unless it says 'meat meal', is listed according to its wet weight.
When all that water has been cooked out of it, meat places considerably
further down on the ingredients list). Just read some of the labels.
Some sort of meat will be listed, but it is then followed by all sorts
of grains that are usually touted as more highly digestible than corn or
wheat (rice, oats, barley, millet, etc.), vegetables (yams, potatoes,
carrots, sweet potatoes, etc.), fruits (apples, pears, etc.) and
supplements (kelp powder, spirulina, lactobacillus bacteria, etc.), not
to mention all the artificial vitamins and minerals that need to be
added. Of course, the presence of the vegetables, fruits, and
supplements theoretically means that less artificial vitamins and
minerals can be added because the nutrients can be obtained from natural
sources, but how many of these natural sources are actually available to
the dog or cat? How much of these natural nutrients are destroyed and
rendered ineffective by the cooking process? Even with foods like EVO
that contain a high proportion of meat and no grain (it uses potatoes,
which are starchy and metabolize as such), the processed meat still is
inferior to the fresh, real thing. Think of a processed, cooked orange
versus a fresh, whole orange. Which one is better?

4.) The issue of periodontal disease still prevails. The pet still does
not get the beneficial, necessary teeth cleaning at each meal, so the
problem of a bacteria-laden mouth that stinks and provides a gateway for
bacteria, toxins, and collagenases to enter the body still exists. This
is, after all, one of the best and biggest reasons to feed a raw diet
with meaty bones.

5.) The animal still lacks the wonderful and necessary physical, mental,
and emotional workout provided by raw meaty bones. Although it is being
fed a premium kibble, your pet can undoubtedly still finish its meal in
record time, rather than having to work at its food for a half an hour
or more. Again, this translates to the body not being fully prepared to
receive food and digest it, so the food will just sit in the animal's
stomach until the parasympathetic nervous system kicks everything into gear.

6.) Premium kibbles are often more expensive that natural, fresh, raw
food. If you are dishing out that much money for a 'premium' processed
pet food, why not feed fresh, whole, raw food sources for less?

7.) You still have no control over what goes into your pet's body. Can
you be certain that what is on the ingredients list is what actually
enters your pet's body? Can you be certain of the quality of the
ingredients? What happened to these ingredients during the cooking process?

8.) The primary question still remains: how is a processed pet food
better for our animals than fresh, whole, raw foods?

It is for these reasons (and I am sure there are other reasons as well)
that many raw feeders consider premium kibbles a waste of money. This
includes those so-called 'therapeutic diets' available only through
veterinarians. The pet food industry and veterinary community simply
developed another artificial food to cover up and 'fix' the problems
created by other commercial, artificial pet foods. Why not treat the
problems at their source (could it have anything to do with money,
perhaps? Remember, veterinarians can pocket up to 40% of the profits
from selling kibbles like Hill's Science Diet [Parker-Pope, T. 1997. For
You, My Pet. The Wall Street Journal. 3 November 1997. In Lonsdale, T.
2001. Raw Meaty Bones. p266].)? In this respect, the pet food companies
and the veterinary community have drastically missed the mark, and it is
our pets that must suffer for it. What sense does it make to simply
switch an ailing pet onto another commercial, artificial pet food when
similar foods caused the problems it was having in the first place?

With the growing number of food allergies pet have, the pet food
industry has been becoming more and more creative, trying to find new
protein and grain sources to make new 'hypoallergenic' kibbles. Have
they even once considered WHY the pets were having allergy problems to
the ingredients in their foods to begin with (Probably. But will they
tell us that they know why? Probably not. Where's the profit in that?)?
Ironically enough, pets switched to a raw diet can often eat the same
meats that caused their allergies originally, because the meats are raw
and not cooked (Clark, W.R. 1995. Hypersensitivity and Allergy, in At
War Within: The double edged sword of immunity, Oxford University Press,
New York. pg 88.). The cooking process changes the protein structures,
and it is these changed, cooked proteins to which the body has an
allergic reaction.

If you feed a premium kibble (or any kibble), please think through why
you feed it to your pets. Could they benefit more from a raw diet? And
ask the ultimate question: how is a processed diet better for my pets
than a diet of fresh, whole, raw foods?