On 8/12/2010 4:29 PM, Dogman wrote:
On Thu, 12 Aug 2010 14:42:26 -0400,
wrote:

[...]
If she's doing really well right now, Amanda, I think you should stick
with what you're doing, i.e., listening to your VETERINARIAN. Not some
Usenet evangelist who's concerned with pushing her anti-kibble agenda.
On the other hand, if what you're doing ceases to work (for whatever
reason), that's when it would be a good time to consider a Plan B. But
do it in conjunction with your VETERINARIAN.

It really makes no sense to fix what ain't broke.

The dog has skin itchies. Kibble does cause that

It's never caused it for any of my dogs.

And how is that relevant in any way?

William Clodius did a good job of explaining that to you. Read his
post (again?), and then if you still don't understand it, let me know,
and I'll try to walk you through it, word by word.

Start with this: "Can cause and does cause are two different things."

Like some dogs, some folks just need more repetitions than others
before they "get it."

You'd lie about it to make a point anyhow.

you might eventually
realize that there's no need for anyone to lie about something the
vast majority of dog owners enjoy. I.e., absolutely ZERO problems
(ever!) with feeding their dog(s) a high-quality kibble.

What you don't know is that many problems are caused by kibble but you
aren't knowledgeable enough to make the connection. Amanda did the same
thing, saying her dog was doing great on her diet yet posting that there
were skin problems. I will conclude that the pills she's giving the dog
are only masking the problem and not fixing it. Soon as the pills run
out the problem will be back. Soon as she dumps the grains the problem
will be solved.

On 8/12/2010 12:16 AM, William Clodius wrote:
wrote:
snip

The dog has skin itchies. Kibble does cause that and so do carrots.
That's not a problem to you? I've seen these same conditions cured with
a move away from grains or carbs many times.

Can cause and does cause are two differnt things, and you have very
limited experience with dogs.

No, I just have different experiences that you have and can see things
you cannot. Obviously you have not tried my suggestions or you'd know it
works. Don't attack my experience when you are clueless about what
grains do to dogs, and to people as well. Even grass eating animals do
better without a diet heavy in grains.


In termsl of allergies carbohydrates (sugars and starches) are about as
neutral a category of chemicals as you can get. Their overuse can lead
to weight and diabetes problems, but those are separate issues.

There is a lot of recent research that shows just the opposite. Study up
on it. Grass fed beef is much healthier than grain fed beef for
instance. I've seen dogs recover totally from diabetes merely by dumping
kibble and eating a much more species appropriate diet. I've seen skin
allergies go away by dumping kibble. This is a very basic concept that
is widely accepted by raw feeders because it works.

On 8/11/2010 11:40 PM, William Clodius wrote:
Amanda wrote:

wrote in message
...
snip
Dry dog food and carrots can both cause skin conditions as you describe so
obviously she isn't doing well on it. Dry dog foods contain grains which
cause skin allergies and carrots contain sugar which can do the same
thing. Both are carbohydrates and not needed in a dog's diet. Raw is by
far the best solution and will totally eliminate the problem.

Really? On our last visit to the vet, she (the vet) said to keep feeding
Mitzi the dried food as she was doing so well on it (Mitzi's fur was growing
back faster than anyone expected)! I'm confused now... do I follow the
vet's advice and keep feeding Mitzi the dry or swap to wet food and hope she
likes it and that it is doing more for her than the dry?
snip
Char can be confusing. She has a few refrains that she tries to fit into
everone's world, and doesn't recognize when it is in discord with how
the real world works. "Grains are bad" is not her only refrain, but it
is her most common one, and repeatedly bringing it up can just distract
from the real issues, if any.


Reasons Not To Eat Grains:

* They are carbohydrate dense. Carbohydrates can be helpful in
supplying energy for those who are extremely physical and active. For
the rest of us who don’t work as a field hand all day, carbohydrates can
convert into the extra inches on our hips. They can also trigger an
insulin response that can leave us hungry an hour after a meal or
craving sugar.
* They contain anti-nutrients. Grains contain both phytic acid and
enzyme inhibitors. Phytic acid is an organic acid contained in the bran
or outer hull of grains. This acid can combine with minerals such as
calcium and zinc and block their absorption in our intestines. It is
possible to neutralize phytic acid through soaking in an acidic medium,
but for some grains, such as oats, the phytic acid levels are just too high.
* They are difficult to digest. The enzyme inhibitors contained in
grains are just as they sound – substances that inhibit the ability of
enzymes to aid in digestion. Grains also contain complex sugars that are
difficult to break down as well as allergenic proteins like gluten.
Again, soaking grains does aid in their digestion, so if you do eat
grains it is very important to properly prepare them.
* They are not as nutrient dense as other options. Per calorie
vegetables contain far more vitamins and minerals than grains. Let’s
compare one of the more nutritious grains, quinoa, with one of my
favorites – collard greens.
http://www.nourishingdays.com/2009/0...-healthy-diet/


Our dogs, like ourselves should only eat those foods on which they
evolved if they are to gain and maintain maximum health. Over the last
several years I have revisited numerous theories regarding the damaging
role of soluble carbohydrates in the mammalian body. This information
blended perfectly with further information regarding the parallel
evolution of dog and man and the association between grain eating and
the development of degenerative diseases in both species. By correlating
and considering all this information, I could only conclude that the dog
is not a grain eater. On that basis, it has become clear to me that
unless a particular breed has spent thousands of years on a mostly grain
diet, there is very little justification in recommending grains for
dogs, and every theoretical and practical reason to condemn it.
http://www.barfworld.com/html/learn_more/nograin.shtml


Many common health problems will clear up or become much easier to
manage when your dog, cat, or ferret has been on raw for just a few
months. Skin issues are often a sign of internal problems. This is a
perfect condition for raw to benefit. Our 20 year old Mykey had awful
skin sores from what was thought to be an allergy to chicken. At a point
he had so many skin sores they seemed to be everywhere.

After switching Mykey to raw over 5 years ago he not only gained a
second "puppy hood" but his skin sores cleared up after 6 months. We
found out that Mykey was not allergic to chicken, he eats it all the
time and loves it. He is however allergic to grain. The smallest amount
of grain will bring on sores and scratching in Mykey.

Mykey's problem with grains is not all that uncommon. Dogs are not fully
capable of digesting grains. They were never meant to eat grains in any
significant amount and lack the ability to digest them properly.
http://www.momofood.ca/raw.html

On Thu, 12 Aug 2010 17:33:19 -0400, Char
wrote:

[...]
The dog has skin itchies. Kibble does cause that

It's never caused it for any of my dogs.

And how is that relevant in any way?

William Clodius did a good job of explaining that to you. Read his
post (again?), and then if you still don't understand it, let me know,
and I'll try to walk you through it, word by word.

Start with this: "Can cause and does cause are two different things."

Like some dogs, some folks just need more repetitions than others
before they "get it."

You'd lie about it to make a point anyhow.

you might eventually
realize that there's no need for anyone to lie about something the
vast majority of dog owners enjoy. I.e., absolutely ZERO problems
(ever!) with feeding their dog(s) a high-quality kibble.

What you don't know is that many problems are caused by kibble but you
aren't knowledgeable enough to make the connection.

Yes, problems can be caused by certain kinds of kibble for certain
dogs and for certain breeds. Likewise, problems, even death, can be
caused by feeding dogs raw diets (notice the term "can cause"?).

But you keep skipping over the main point he Can cause is not the
same thing as does cause.

Amanda did the same
thing, saying her dog was doing great on her diet yet posting that there
were skin problems. I will conclude that the pills she's giving the dog
are only masking the problem and not fixing it. Soon as the pills run
out the problem will be back. Soon as she dumps the grains the problem
will be solved.

If that does end up being the case, then Amanda, in conjunction with
her VETERINARIAN, can explore any number of Plan Bs, e.g., changing
the kind.brand of kibble, attempt to isolate the allergic component,
etc. Or even try a raw meat diet. But she doesn't need to be buffaloed
into doing any of that by some fanatical anti-kibble nutjob.

--
Dogman

On Thu, 12 Aug 2010 17:53:36 -0400, Dogman wrote:


No, I just have different experiences that you have and can see things
you cannot.

http://www.policeinterceptor.com/sounds/gqold.wav

Irony alert! Irony alert!


--
Dogman

On 8/12/2010 6:07 PM, Dogman wrote:
On Thu, 12 Aug 2010 17:53:36 -0400, wrote:


No, I just have different experiences that you have and can see things
you cannot.

http://www.policeinterceptor.com/sounds/gqold.wav

Irony alert! Irony alert!

Ever hear of acrylamides? Based on current stage of knowledge,
acrylamide is a natural byproduct that forms when certain
carbohydrate-rich foods are fried, baked, or roasted at high
temperatures above 120 °C (including kibble). Acrylamide causes cancer
in rats when administered orally in high dose experiments, increasing
tumors in the nervous system, oral cavity, peritoneum, thyroid gland,
mammary gland, uterus, and clitoris.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acrylamide

Do Vegetables and Grains in Pet Foods Contribute to Cancer?
Acrylamide; a chemical that can form in some foods during cooking is
linked to cancer in laboratory studies of animals. Cooking temperature
and cooking time play a role in levels of acrylamide in food. Acrylamide
is found mainly in foods made from plants, such as potato products,
grain products, or coffee; it does not form, or forms at much lower
levels in dairy, meat, and/or fish. The acrylamide levels are not
altered by organic farming methods. The key to keeping levels of
acrylamide low in foods seems to be the cooking temperature and cooking
time.
http://www.truthaboutpetfood.com/art...to-cancer.html

"Char" wrote in message
m...
On 8/11/2010 12:45 PM, Amanda George wrote:


Really? On our last visit to the vet, she (the vet) said to keep feeding
Mitzi the dried food as she was doing so well on it (Mitzi's fur was
growing back faster than anyone expected)! I'm confused now... do I
follow the vet's advice and keep feeding Mitzi the dry or swap to wet
food and hope she likes it and that it is doing more for her than the
dry?

Did you know that vets are taught about nutrition by kibble companies?
Don't wonder why your vet doesn't know about these other choices.


That may be the case in America, but I'm in the UK and I think (but could be
wrong) vets are trained not to recommend any particular type of food... what
has this got to do with my original question though? I didn't ask for
advice about food, I asked for advice about training our little girl!

Would it hurt to try going grain free just to see if the itching stops?
Not all canned is grain free BTW.


Our little girl is happy with the dried food so we won't be changing :-)

It's hard to tell exactly what in the diet is causing the itching when
there are so many ingredients. I'm just suggesting the most common causes.
That's a huge benefit of feeding raw. You can feed one single type of meat
at a time and will know exactly what the problem is.


I didn't ask about her diet and I certainly didn't say she was itching, I
asked about training her :-)

"Char" wrote in message
m...
On 8/11/2010 12:45 PM, Amanda George wrote:

Thank you Char! She's a totally healthy puppy apart from the skin
condition but even that has improved really well to the pills and
shampooing and her fur is now totally back, it just needs to thicken up
a bit more is all :-)


What pills is she taking?

An anti-flea and an anti-inflamatry - half of each pill twice a day

"William Clodius" wrote in message
...
Amanda George wrote:

"Char" wrote in message
...
snip
Dry dog food and carrots can both cause skin conditions as you describe
so
obviously she isn't doing well on it. Dry dog foods contain grains
which
cause skin allergies and carrots contain sugar which can do the same
thing. Both are carbohydrates and not needed in a dog's diet. Raw is by
far the best solution and will totally eliminate the problem.

Really? On our last visit to the vet, she (the vet) said to keep feeding
Mitzi the dried food as she was doing so well on it (Mitzi's fur was
growing
back faster than anyone expected)! I'm confused now... do I follow the
vet's advice and keep feeding Mitzi the dry or swap to wet food and hope
she
likes it and that it is doing more for her than the dry?
snip
Char can be confusing. She has a few refrains that she tries to fit into
everone's world, and doesn't recognize when it is in discord with how
the real world works. "Grains are bad" is not her only refrain, but it
is her most common one, and repeatedly bringing it up can just distract
from the real issues, if any.


Ah right! OK, thank you Bill!

--
Bill Clodius
los the lost and net the pet to email

"Dogman" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 11 Aug 2010 17:45:39 +0100, "Amanda George"
wrote:

"Char" wrote in message
...
[...]
Dry dog food and carrots can both cause skin conditions as you describe
so
obviously she isn't doing well on it. Dry dog foods contain grains which
cause skin allergies and carrots contain sugar which can do the same
thing. Both are carbohydrates and not needed in a dog's diet. Raw is by
far the best solution and will totally eliminate the problem.

Really? On our last visit to the vet, she (the vet) said to keep feeding
Mitzi the dried food as she was doing so well on it (Mitzi's fur was
growing
back faster than anyone expected)! I'm confused now... do I follow the
vet's advice and keep feeding Mitzi the dry or swap to wet food and hope
she
likes it and that it is doing more for her than the dry?

If she's doing really well right now, Amanda, I think you should stick
with what you're doing, i.e., listening to your VETERINARIAN. Not some
Usenet evangelist who's concerned with pushing her anti-kibble agenda.
On the other hand, if what you're doing ceases to work (for whatever
reason), that's when it would be a good time to consider a Plan B. But
do it in conjunction with your VETERINARIAN.


She's doing a lot better than we were expecting and the vet is happy with
her so we'll keep on with the dry food unless the vet says otherwise :-)

It really makes no sense to fix what ain't broke.


Too right, Dogman!

--
Dogman