On Wed, 15 Sep 2010 01:45:24 -0400, sighthounds & siberians
wrote:

Six weeks is too young to take a pup home.

For the vast majority of dog owners, absolutely. But for someone with
the experience, and a good knowledge of all the aspects of proper
puppy Socialization, it can work out just fine. Otherwise, it's better
to wait another week or two. Anyway, that's my two cents.

And now that I've killed half the doves in two states, and filled up
my freezer with dove breasts (yummie!), it's on to teal!

--
Dogman

"Dogman" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 15 Sep 2010 01:45:24 -0400, sighthounds & siberians
wrote:

Six weeks is too young to take a pup home.

For the vast majority of dog owners, absolutely. But for someone with
the experience, and a good knowledge of all the aspects of proper
puppy Socialization, it can work out just fine. Otherwise, it's better
to wait another week or two. Anyway, that's my two cents.

And now that I've killed half the doves in two states, and filled up
my freezer with dove breasts (yummie!), it's on to teal!

--
Dogman

I've never eaten a dove. Is it dark meat? I think I would like that. You
must need a lot for a portion, though!

I prefer to leave a pup with it's mother and siblings for at least ten
weeks, even twelve, if I can. I think there is just so many things for her,
and them, to teach each other. Bite inhibition, house training, general
good doggie manners. I do enjoy visiting the bitch and her litter while I
wait, of course! IMO, I'd like the pup to learn to be a good dog from his
mother, and then I can take over and teach him to be a good citizen. It's
certainly doable with a younger pup, but I think the benefits of a later
adoption makes life much easier for all. Plus, older puppies sleep longer!
I'm getting too old to be getting up every hour... LOL!

Phyrie

On Fri, 17 Sep 2010 20:04:02 -0700, "Phyrie"
wrote:

"Dogman" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 15 Sep 2010 01:45:24 -0400, sighthounds & siberians
wrote:

Six weeks is too young to take a pup home.

For the vast majority of dog owners, absolutely. But for someone with
the experience, and a good knowledge of all the aspects of proper
puppy Socialization, it can work out just fine. Otherwise, it's better
to wait another week or two. Anyway, that's my two cents.

And now that I've killed half the doves in two states, and filled up
my freezer with dove breasts (yummie!), it's on to teal!

I've never eaten a dove. Is it dark meat? I think I would like that. You
must need a lot for a portion, though!

Yes, it takes quite a few doves to make a meal. There's not much to a
dove but breast, but they're absolutely wonderful sauteed, or in a
Stroganoff.

I prefer to leave a pup with it's mother and siblings for at least ten
weeks, even twelve, if I can. I think there is just so many things for her,
and them, to teach each other. Bite inhibition, house training, general
good doggie manners. I do enjoy visiting the bitch and her litter while I
wait, of course! IMO, I'd like the pup to learn to be a good dog from his
mother, and then I can take over and teach him to be a good citizen. It's
certainly doable with a younger pup, but I think the benefits of a later
adoption makes life much easier for all. Plus, older puppies sleep longer!
I'm getting too old to be getting up every hour... LOL!

Yeah, it can take some work, Phyrie, but it can pay dividends. The
dangers of leaving a pup with mom that long, and with littermates that
long, is that mom can usually use a good rest by then. And allowing
pups to be bullied by littermates can have lasting effects, as can
allowing pups to bully littermates. Everything that mom can teach the
pup, an experienced dog owner can. With performance dogs especially, I
think it's important to get that human-dog bond established ASAP.

--
Dogman

wm.king4 wrote
sonofdog wrote:
cshenk wrote:

This tends to be true of dogs and cats.

This is a big myth ! can you tell how do the mating dogs (or cats)
eliminate genes that carry all the maladies ?

Yes. My 4footed friends generally pick us ;-)

and this is how people end up with breed that does nor suit them at all,
consequently puppies acquired in impulse end up in shelters- Hide quoted
text -

I'm not quite sure I follow you but the more closely imbred the gene
pool, the greater the likelihood that an abnormal trait will appear
because both parents carry the gene for that trait. That's very basic
genetics.

Not sure if I follw him either. It was a little jumbled there!

Anyways, yes you have the gist of it. I'm not saying purebred dogs are
'bad' or 'they all have problems' but there are certain maladies some of the
types are known to be at higher risk for. Like, bull dogs are prone to hip
issues which doesn't mean they all have them, just you have to watch for it
a bit closer.

"Sharon Delarose" wrote

Some of us go both ways! I was the original cat lady until my
mid-thirties. I saw cats in a way that most people don't and I trained
them not to jump on counters, etc. My rule was simple: They were
allowed on any furniture I sat, laid down or propped my feet on. All
other furniture was off limits.

Hi Sharon, you aren't alone here. I can't say for all the people here just
now but over time you'll find quite a few here have 'mixed homes'. I have
the traditional cat and dog, sleeping in sin together ;-)

I've had cats all my life it seems. Cash-'pup' is my first dog but my
Husband had dogs all his life until he joined the Navy. We both held off on
getting a dog until we were retired from the Navy and on second careers
because of the constant moves and 24 hour duty and such things.

Yes, cat training is easy once you get the hang of it. Daisy-chan
(cat, -chan is a sort of 'beloved little one' in Japanese) is our current
cat and the rare time we have just one, but she's a rescue feral now turned
lap kitty and doesnt tolerate other cats at all. Likes dogs though so she
has good taste ;-)

"Dogman" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 17 Sep 2010 20:04:02 -0700, "Phyrie"
wrote:

"Dogman" wrote in message
. ..
On Wed, 15 Sep 2010 01:45:24 -0400, sighthounds & siberians
wrote:

Six weeks is too young to take a pup home.

For the vast majority of dog owners, absolutely. But for someone with
the experience, and a good knowledge of all the aspects of proper
puppy Socialization, it can work out just fine. Otherwise, it's better
to wait another week or two. Anyway, that's my two cents.

And now that I've killed half the doves in two states, and filled up
my freezer with dove breasts (yummie!), it's on to teal!

I've never eaten a dove. Is it dark meat? I think I would like that.
You
must need a lot for a portion, though!

Yes, it takes quite a few doves to make a meal. There's not much to a
dove but breast, but they're absolutely wonderful sauteed, or in a
Stroganoff.

I prefer to leave a pup with it's mother and siblings for at least ten
weeks, even twelve, if I can. I think there is just so many things for
her,
and them, to teach each other. Bite inhibition, house training, general
good doggie manners. I do enjoy visiting the bitch and her litter while I
wait, of course! IMO, I'd like the pup to learn to be a good dog from his
mother, and then I can take over and teach him to be a good citizen. It's
certainly doable with a younger pup, but I think the benefits of a later
adoption makes life much easier for all. Plus, older puppies sleep
longer!
I'm getting too old to be getting up every hour... LOL!

Yeah, it can take some work, Phyrie, but it can pay dividends. The
dangers of leaving a pup with mom that long, and with littermates that
long, is that mom can usually use a good rest by then. And allowing
pups to be bullied by littermates can have lasting effects, as can
allowing pups to bully littermates. Everything that mom can teach the
pup, an experienced dog owner can. With performance dogs especially, I
think it's important to get that human-dog bond established ASAP.

--
Dogman

You have good points, Dogman. My breed (Cavalier King Charles Spaniels) are
pet only, and have very small litters. My breeder (and the others of this
breed that I've talked to) keeps the bitch in the house, and she and the
resulting pups stay there until the new owners take them home. On the other
hand, the last two "working" type dogs I had (a Lab from a very large
litter, and a Sheltie) I did bring home earlier. In retrospect, with some
serious soul searching and honesty, both those dogs had separation issues,
and behaviour problems. I have no evidence, and I certainly was no dog
expert back then (and don't claim to be one now, although I'm MUCH more
experienced now) but I wonder if they would have done better in my ignorant
hands if they had been older at adoption. Waiting those last few weeks to
bring Kiba home were very long to me! But the breeder was adamant.
Actually, I brought Kiba home closer to 11 weeks, as that's when the weekend
fell, and I had to travel on a Saturday-Sunday to pick him up.

Ian Dunbar is a huge proponent of early adoption, and early socialization,
and goes so far to say that a puppy is virtually ruined if you don't have
him with you in the small window of time between 6 and 12 weeks. I admire
his puppy raising theories, but I don't agree with that statement. He also
says that a puppy should meet 100 people in the first 100 days. Days go by
here, in this tiny rural area, where I may see a only one person, or even
none, for days in a row! So, if I've ruined my pup by leaving him with
breeder for 12 weeks and not socializing him enough, you couldn't tell it by
him! *grin*

I've also brought home kittens at 6-8 weeks too, but the cat we have now
(Spyder) was the last to go in her litter. She was 12 weeks when we got her
from her mother. She simply is the best cat we've ever had. She's never,
EVER given us one moment of trouble. She was virtually housetrained
already, and she's never had one single accident in our home. She was calm,
almost placid, and didn't worry one bit about her new surroundings. Of
course, this is purely anecdotal, and it just may be that she would have
been a great cat regardless, but I do think those extra few weeks made the
difference.

On Sat, 18 Sep 2010 15:35:55 -0700, "Phyrie"
wrote:

[...]
Yeah, it can take some work, Phyrie, but it can pay dividends. The
dangers of leaving a pup with mom that long, and with littermates that
long, is that mom can usually use a good rest by then. And allowing
pups to be bullied by littermates can have lasting effects, as can
allowing pups to bully littermates. Everything that mom can teach the
pup, an experienced dog owner can. With performance dogs especially, I
think it's important to get that human-dog bond established ASAP.

--
Dogman

You have good points, Dogman. My breed (Cavalier King Charles Spaniels) are
pet only, and have very small litters. My breeder (and the others of this
breed that I've talked to) keeps the bitch in the house, and she and the
resulting pups stay there until the new owners take them home. On the other
hand, the last two "working" type dogs I had (a Lab from a very large
litter, and a Sheltie) I did bring home earlier. In retrospect, with some
serious soul searching and honesty, both those dogs had separation issues,
and behaviour problems.

That doesn't tell me much. Could be a lot of things. Plus, when I say
performance dogs, I'm talking about dogs that will one day will be
expected work hand-in-glove with its owner. Trialing, obedience,
hunting, herding, etc. Not necessarily the breed.

Owners usually create most of a dog's separation issues, by never
getting them used to being alone, and/or by the owner's behavior. And
then there's a genetic component too.

I have no evidence, and I certainly was no dog
expert back then (and don't claim to be one now, although I'm MUCH more
experienced now) but I wonder if they would have done better in my ignorant
hands if they had been older at adoption.

It's possible, Phyrie. But not likely. Never underestimate the magic
of having the right genes, and then nurturing those genes from the
get-go.

Waiting those last few weeks to
bring Kiba home were very long to me! But the breeder was adamant.
Actually, I brought Kiba home closer to 11 weeks, as that's when the weekend
fell, and I had to travel on a Saturday-Sunday to pick him up.

Ian Dunbar is a huge proponent of early adoption, and early socialization,
and goes so far to say that a puppy is virtually ruined if you don't have
him with you in the small window of time between 6 and 12 weeks.

I wouldn't go that far. But I'm a guy who likes to have the odds in
his favor as much as possible, and the odds suggest that the best
results are obtained from separating them from mom and littermates
early, plus early and exhaustive Socialization. And my personal
experience validates this theory. Doggone, but I go back to the days
when it was thought that we shouldn't even start training a dog until
it was a year old, i.e., The Dark Ages. shudder

I admire
his puppy raising theories, but I don't agree with that statement. He also
says that a puppy should meet 100 people in the first 100 days. Days go by
here, in this tiny rural area, where I may see a only one person, or even
none, for days in a row!

I'm with Dunbar on that one, Phyrie. Even if you have to get into a
car several times a week and visit a mall, city, etc., "get er' done."
Some behaviorists suggest 200 people. I think that's overkill, but
try to make those 100 people as different as possible and you'll be in
good shape. It's a lot easier done than said, believe it or not.

So, if I've ruined my pup by leaving him with
breeder for 12 weeks and not socializing him enough, you couldn't tell it by
him! *grin*

Perhaps the breeder did a lot of the Socializing for you? We do quite
of bit of it here too. But it can be very time-consuming, and most
breeders just won't take the time to do it all.

I've also brought home kittens at 6-8 weeks too, but the cat we have now
(Spyder) was the last to go in her litter. She was 12 weeks when we got her
from her mother. She simply is the best cat we've ever had. She's never,
EVER given us one moment of trouble. She was virtually housetrained
already, and she's never had one single accident in our home. She was calm,
almost placid, and didn't worry one bit about her new surroundings. Of
course, this is purely anecdotal, and it just may be that she would have
been a great cat regardless, but I do think those extra few weeks made the
difference.

Gato? No habla gatos.

Heh.

--
Dogman

On Sat, 18 Sep 2010 12:34:54 -0400, "cshenk" wrote:

I'm not saying purebred dogs are
'bad' or 'they all have problems' but there are certain maladies some of the
types are known to be at higher risk for.

Unlike with mixed breeds of unknown parentage, at least with a
purepred you pretty much know what to expect. And good breeders are
continually breeding away from those "problems" you're talking about.

Like, bull dogs are prone to hip
issues which doesn't mean they all have them, just you have to watch for it
a bit closer.

Absolutely. But so do mixed breeds have hip dysplasia; they're subject
to precisely the same diseases and maladies of purebreds.

And like Forest Gump once said: "Mixed breeds are like a box of
chocolates. You never know what you're gonna get."

--
Dogman

In article ,
"cshenk" wrote:

Hi Sharon, you aren't alone here. I can't say for all the people here just
now but over time you'll find quite a few here have 'mixed homes'. I have
the traditional cat and dog, sleeping in sin together ;-)

I've had cats all my life it seems. Cash-'pup' is my first dog but my
Husband had dogs all his life until he joined the Navy. We both held off on
getting a dog until we were retired from the Navy and on second careers
because of the constant moves and 24 hour duty and such things.

Yes, cat training is easy once you get the hang of it. Daisy-chan
(cat, -chan is a sort of 'beloved little one' in Japanese) is our current
cat and the rare time we have just one, but she's a rescue feral now turned
lap kitty and doesnt tolerate other cats at all. Likes dogs though so she
has good taste ;-)

My last cat was a rescue feral, too, of sorts! A friend of mine worked
at a restaurant and every day she brought home a bucket of leftover
food. She didn't own a cat but she dumped the bucket out on her front
porch for all the nearby homeless cats to eat, and there sure were a lot
of them.

One had kittens and I adopted one of them. Took us an hour just to
catch him. He'd never been touched by a human or in a house and poor
little thing was miserably initially. In the end he turned into my most
favorite cat ever.

He and our dog Dakota have one thing in common. I'd always wanted a
Himalayan and he wasn't, but he was half-Siamese and half-long haired
something so he was similar.

With Dakota I've always liked the idea of Huskies except for the long
hair. She's half Husky, and has short hair.

What I really like about mixed breeds is the uniqueness. Dakota and the
cat share that trait. A brown lab is going to look pretty much like
every other brown lab but a mixed brown lab opens up all sorts of
possibilities.

--
Bad Dog Books
http://books.gityasome.com
Gityasome Tshirts
http://www.gityasome.com

wrote:

snip
I'm not quite sure I follow you but the more closely imbred the gene
pool, the greater the likelihood that an abnormal trait will appear
because both parents carry the gene for that trait. That's very basic
genetics.
That analysis strictly applies only to simple recessive genes. Dominant
traits (e.g., some forms of pattern whites) are obviously easily
avoidable if breeders (and owners) didn't find it attractive. Sex
deetermined traits (hemophilia in humans) are not the result of
inbreeding, whatever the beiliefs about European royalty to the
contrary. Multigenic traits, some joint disorders, can appear because of
cross-breeding.

Even for recessives the easier you can make a trait appear the easier it
is to identify carriers of the trait and remove them from the pool.
Abeit inefficiently. As near as I can tell if removing a specific gene
remains an absolute priority, and a significant fraction of the pool at
the start are not carriers so elimination is possible, then the rate of
occurence of the gene should go down in inverse proportion to the number
of generations.

--
Bill Clodius
los the lost and net the pet to email