I totally disagree that we teach our dogs too many
commands/words/phrases.

To clarify, when I said Gypsy Rose knew 80 different commands, that did
also include words/phrases/names of objects such as ball, toy, and go
for a ride.

That said, I believe absolutely that the more words/phrases/commands
your dog knows, the better. Why?

Because dogs are highly intelligent beings and if you don't focus their
thoughts in positive ways, they will focus their own thoughts in
negative ways. One of the subtleties for teaching Dakota not to chew up
the house was to exercise her brain in a positive manner.

We did this by teaching her words whether it be commands, names,
whatever, but lots of words. That meant that as she went thru the house
with or without us around, there was more in her head than "what am I
going to do right now?"

She'd see an object and the name of that object would register,
hopefully to interrupt the type of thought behavior that would lead to
chewing. Dogs chew for many reasons and one of those is boredom,
another is stress.

By filling her head with other things, we believe that lessens the
stress and refocuses the thoughts. You can agree or disagree but our
method worked. She doesn't chew up the house. And we did not achieve
that by whacking her around for chewing, we achieved it thru positive
methods.

If I had a child I'd be filling his head so full it would bust. I can
hear the arguments to come "but a dog isn't a child." No, they aren't.
But exercising their brain, filling it up, not only strengthens your
bond with them (which can help you with obedience as they are more
likely to WANT to obey you), it also brings you joy in the sharing.

--
Bad Dog Books
http://books.gityasome.com
Gityasome Tshirts
http://www.gityasome.com

On Fri, 08 Oct 2010 08:00:03 -0400, Sharon Delarose
wrote:

I totally disagree that we teach our dogs too many
commands/words/phrases.

To clarify, when I said Gypsy Rose knew 80 different commands, that did
also include words/phrases/names of objects such as ball, toy, and go
for a ride.

That said, I believe absolutely that the more words/phrases/commands
your dog knows, the better. Why?

How did "words" and "phrases" get in there?

Because dogs are highly intelligent beings and if you don't focus their
thoughts in positive ways, they will focus their own thoughts in
negative ways.

What would be a more positive way of focusing a dog's thoughts than to
train her to always pay attention to her owner, to immediately sit or
come on command, under any condition, at any location, no matter what
the distractions were?

We did this by teaching her words whether it be commands, names,
whatever, but lots of words. That meant that as she went thru the house
with or without us around, there was more in her head than "what am I
going to do right now?"

Have you ever video-taped your dog when you're not home? What do you
think she's doing when you're gone?

She'd see an object and the name of that object would register,
hopefully to interrupt the type of thought behavior that would lead to
chewing. Dogs chew for many reasons and one of those is boredom,
another is stress.

Indeed. And another reason is that the dog's owner didn't bother
teaching her to only chew certain objects, e.g., her toys, and not the
couch.

By filling her head with other things, we believe that lessens the
stress and refocuses the thoughts.

Why not fill her head with commands that may actually save her life
one day, or that would allow her to be off-leash at times?

You can agree or disagree but our method worked.

But it didn't work, Sharon, because she doesn't have a bullet-proof
sit or come command.

Q.E.D.

And we did not achieve
that by whacking her around for chewing, we achieved it thru positive
methods.

Why would you think it's necessary to whack her around to train her
not to chew certain objects?

If I had a child I'd be filling his head so full it would bust.

What would you fill his head with? Important things, that may
actually save his life one day, or that he can support himself with,
or that even allow him to travel alone and see the world?

Or silly things, like the words to Lady Gaga's latest song?



--
Dogman

In article ,
Dogman wrote:

What would be a more positive way of focusing a dog's thoughts than to
train her to always pay attention to her owner, to immediately sit or
come on command, under any condition, at any location, no matter what
the distractions were?


Why not share your methods for teaching reliable recall under all
circumstances and distractions? That would be much more helpful to
anyone reading this forum.

Indeed. And another reason is that the dog's owner didn't bother
teaching her to only chew certain objects, e.g., her toys, and not the
couch.

Exactly. Dakota's previous string of owners did not teach her anything
positive. We did. She does not chew our home, only her designated
items. We taught her that.


And we did not achieve
that by whacking her around for chewing, we achieved it thru positive
methods.

Why would you think it's necessary to whack her around to train her
not to chew certain objects?

I specifically said that we did not whack her around. I added that to
the post because I know there are many people who do, and I was hoping
to make the point to anyone reading this that you can teach your dog not
to chew without whacking.

This may be currently a back and forth with you and I but it's in a
public forum where hundreds or thousands could be reading it. For that
reason, if I can post something positive that helps someone, I will.
Even if it is to share a mistake so that others can learn from it. Even
if it by sharing something we've done that worked so that others can
learn from it.

One thing I know is that there are many different methods and mindsets
of dog handling and people achieve success in a variety of ways. Oddly
enough I have not seen much posting here offering methods that work for
people. That, more than anything, would be of the most benefit to
anyone reading here.

Sometimes teaching is in the subtleties such as the small "oof" story.
That was Sierra's first lesson in what not to bark at. Obedience for me
goes beyond sit, stay, and come. It goes to every aspect of your dog's
behavior including barking, chewing, and so forth.

--
Bad Dog Books
http://books.gityasome.com
Gityasome Tshirts
http://www.gityasome.com

On Fri, 08 Oct 2010 16:49:08 -0400, Sharon Delarose
wrote:

In article ,
Dogman wrote:

What would be a more positive way of focusing a dog's thoughts than to
train her to always pay attention to her owner, to immediately sit or
come on command, under any condition, at any location, no matter what
the distractions were?

Why not share your methods for teaching reliable recall under all
circumstances and distractions? That would be much more helpful to
anyone reading this forum.

Is that an admission that you don't know how to go about it? I've been
trying to get you to answer my simple question about the
"consequences" your dogs face when they don't obey your commands, and
I think it would be even more helpful if you would answer that
question first.

Don't you agree?

You said they faced consequences, I didn't.

So I'm just interested in finding out what they are.

Indeed. And another reason is that the dog's owner didn't bother
teaching her to only chew certain objects, e.g., her toys, and not the
couch.

Exactly. Dakota's previous string of owners did not teach her anything
positive. We did. She does not chew our home, only her designated
items. We taught her that.

How did you teach her that?

And we did not achieve
that by whacking her around for chewing, we achieved it thru positive
methods.

Why would you think it's necessary to whack her around to train her
not to chew certain objects?

I specifically said that we did not whack her around.

Yes, you did, but why did you feel it was necessary to mention that
you did it without needing to whack her around? Do you think the
people who frequent this newsgroup are the kind of people who train
their dogs by whacking them around? How many trainers do you know who
train dogs by whacking them around?

This may be currently a back and forth with you and I

Not really, Sharon. I can't really get you to answer any questions
about training, and why you appear to put more emphasis on games than
on obedience training. My entire line of questioning so far has really
been about finding out WHY you do that, but I'm as far away from an
getting an answer as I was 6 or 7 posts ago.

Why are my questions so hard to answer?

if I can post something positive that helps someone, I will.

You could post something that would help me. Do I count?

One thing I know is that there are many different methods and mindsets
of dog handling and people achieve success in a variety of ways.

There are many ways to skin a cat, yes. But until we can at least
find some agreement on the need for the cat to be skinned in the first
place, we might as well be singing Dixie to a brace of baying
coonhounds.

Oddly
enough I have not seen much posting here offering methods that work for
people.

How long have you been around? We do that all the time, and have been
doing it for many, many years.

That, more than anything, would be of the most benefit to
anyone reading here.

It might for some, but this is a canine behavior discussion group, and
if there's no real "discussions" going on, and mostly evasions, it's
hard for anyone to get any benefit from that.

I know I'm not.

--
Dogman

In article ,
Dogman wrote:

Yes, you did, but why did you feel it was necessary to mention that
you did it without needing to whack her around? Do you think the
people who frequent this newsgroup are the kind of people who train
their dogs by whacking them around? How many trainers do you know who
train dogs by whacking them around?

I was not aware that this group was specifically for trainers. I
thought it was for all dog owners. The best thing trainers can do here
is to post advice and methods.

I am not a trainer, nor do I personally know any trainers, so other than
TV trainers and reading books I do not know how a professional trainer
would go about training a dog.

I've watched probably every episode of Victoria Stilwell. We don't get
Cesar Millan so I'm only somewhat familiar with him though I do have one
of his books. I've read the Monks of New Skete and quite a bit from
James Herriot. While he is not a trainer he does provide a wealth of
info on dog personalities, behaviors etc.

Having met a myriad of dog owners thru the years I've seen all sorts of
dog handling, both positive and horrid and even neglectful. For that
reason, I post here assuming that people from all walks of dog handling
might read this. My goal always is to learn more, and share with others.

For everything I know about dogs, I'm sure there is twice as much I
don't know. I hope to learn more here. I hope that others might learn
from me. We all have knowledge to share.

--
Bad Dog Books
http://books.gityasome.com
Gityasome Tshirts
http://www.gityasome.com

In article ,
Dogman wrote:

if I can post something positive that helps someone, I will.

You could post something that would help me. Do I count?

Yes Dogman, you count :-)

Not sure there is anything I can help you with but it would delight me
to someday see a post from you saying I helped in some positive way.

I've found an older thread from this forum, very lengthy, and am about
halfway thru. It is enlightening to see the various relationships
between frequent posters of this forum.

Interesting that you commented something to the effect that it was fun
to flame.

--
Bad Dog Books
http://books.gityasome.com
Gityasome Tshirts
http://www.gityasome.com

In article ,
Dogman wrote:

Exactly. Dakota's previous string of owners did not teach her anything
positive. We did. She does not chew our home, only her designated
items. We taught her that.

How did you teach her that?

For the shorthand answer, we taught her object by object as you would a
toddler. When she grabbed something illegal, we gave a "No", took it
away, and gave her something legal.

We also did not give her freedom out of our sight until she'd learned
quite a few objects. Just as I am doing now with Sierra, I made Dakota
stay with me as I moved thru the house so that I could watch her.

Once she was pretty solid in whatever room I was in, I would allow her
briefly out of sight. Then I would go check on her for illegal objects.
As she became more trustworthy, I let her stay out of sight longer.

Also, we did not give her legal items that were similar to illegal
items, such as shoes. Give a dog an old shoe to play with and then not
understand when he chews your new shoes. Yes, some people do offer
shoes successfully. I prefer not to offer conflicting messages that
way, especially with a dog who came to us with problems to solve.

Sierra grabbed the flap of a cardboard box, got a Felix Unger beep (for
lack of a better description) and so far she has not grabbed a box
again. Object by object, room by room, and eventually she will learn
that the only legal objects are the ones given to her.

Dakota is super solid with this now. We realized very quickly that she
was a problem chewer so we did not leave her in a position to do severe
damage such as the couch. She had to earn her freedom.

The super short answer is that for the most part, it was by swapping the
illegal objects for legal ones, so the focus included positive
reinforcement and by making her earn the freedom.

--
Bad Dog Books
http://books.gityasome.com
Gityasome Tshirts
http://www.gityasome.com

In article ,
Dogman wrote:

Why not share your methods for teaching reliable recall under all
circumstances and distractions? That would be much more helpful to
anyone reading this forum.

Is that an admission that you don't know how to go about it?

I believe that you have far more experience than I with this issue and
that if you shared, it would likely help me. As it is an issue that
comes up frequently in this forum from what I've seen, and as it is a
very important issue, it would benefit me and others reading here for
you to share your technique.

I shared my chewing training, which worked successfully for me on a
problem dog. Your turn!

--
Bad Dog Books
http://books.gityasome.com
Gityasome Tshirts
http://www.gityasome.com

On Fri, 08 Oct 2010 18:25:02 -0400, Sharon Delarose
wrote:

In article ,
Dogman wrote:

if I can post something positive that helps someone, I will.

You could post something that would help me. Do I count?

Yes Dogman, you count :-)

Then why can't you answer simple questions? At this point, it's the
only way that you could possibly help me.

Have you ever been a Congresswoman? Have you ever had to be
subpoenaed? Have you ever pled the Fifth Amendment? Have you ever
appeared on an epidode of Law and Order?

Not sure there is anything I can help you with but it would delight me
to someday see a post from you saying I helped in some positive way.

I would be delighted to make that post, and if you'll answer those
questions I keep posing, I'll do it in bold and arrange for a marching
band to help announce it.

I've found an older thread from this forum, very lengthy, and am about
halfway thru. It is enlightening to see the various relationships
between frequent posters of this forum.

Have you ever read the Indian fable about the blind men and the
elephant?
http://www.his.com/~pshapiro/elephant.story.html

You should, before you become one of them.

Interesting that you commented something to the effect that it was fun
to flame.

It can be, especially if the person being flamed enjoys flaming me, or
others, or is just a troll, for example.

But if I were you, I'd keep my nose out of newsgroup politics and just
stick to discussing canine behavior.

--
Dogman

On Fri, 08 Oct 2010 18:22:06 -0400, Sharon Delarose
wrote:

In article ,
Dogman wrote:

Yes, you did, but why did you feel it was necessary to mention that
you did it without needing to whack her around? Do you think the
people who frequent this newsgroup are the kind of people who train
their dogs by whacking them around? How many trainers do you know who
train dogs by whacking them around?

I was not aware that this group was specifically for trainers.

It's not. But some of us are professionals, and others are pretty damn
good amateurs, and yet others are dog owners who are interested in dog
training and canine behavior.

I thought it was for all dog owners.

It is.

The best thing trainers can do here is to post advice and methods.

We do, when our help is requested, and sometimes when it's not.

I am not a trainer, nor do I personally know any trainers, so other than
TV trainers and reading books I do not know how a professional trainer
would go about training a dog.

There's nothing wrong with that, but then you should be more open to
good advice, and not so quick to disregard it when you get it, don't
you think?

I've watched probably every episode of Victoria Stilwell. We don't get
Cesar Millan so I'm only somewhat familiar with him though I do have one
of his books. I've read the Monks of New Skete and quite a bit from
James Herriot. While he is not a trainer he does provide a wealth of
info on dog personalities, behaviors etc.

The best way to learn how to train dogs is to watch another trainer
train dogs. Especially in person. Yes, you can learn the fundamentals
of many training methods by reading books, watching videos, shows,
etc., but unless you're the rare bird, you're still going to need some
hands-on help. Which is why classes, both group and individual
classes, are the best way to go about it, if it's at all possible.

Having met a myriad of dog owners thru the years I've seen all sorts of
dog handling, both positive and horrid and even neglectful.

Absolutely. Which is why the TV training shows are so popular.

We all have knowledge to share.

Stories, maybe, but not necessarily knowledge.

--
Dogman