In article ,
sighthounds & siberians wrote:

It's not a show dog command. People in the show ring aren't
constantly commanding their dogs to stay; the dogs know to stay in the
stacked position. The command "stay" is a great safety feature if
your dog is in motion and you need him to stop in his tracks and stay
right where he is.

For your typical home dog then if "sit" and "lay down" would achieve the
same purpose to stop a dog in his tracks, why add the extra command?
Why not just have them sit or lay?

Especially if the dog is in motion and you are stopping them for a
safety reason, wouldn't they be less likely to break ranks from a
sit/lay position than a standing position? (Forgetting the argument
that your dog shouldn't ever break ranks, of course ;-)

I'm not seeing the logic on this one. I understand Matt's example and
that makes sense, but I'm not seeing it for a home dog. Can you give an
example of how "stay" as a safety measure should be used rather than
"sit" or "lay"?

--
Bad Dog Books
http://books.gityasome.com
Gityasome Tshirts
http://www.gityasome.com

What I like about YouTube training videos:

The majority of training videos I've seen involve dogs who are obviously
already trained or partially trained. While this is helpful, it's even
more helpful when you run across a video that features a dog of the same
approximate age and type as your dog, who appears to be at the
approximate same stage in training.

I ran across one that used what appeared to be a Border Collie pup about
the same age as Sierra. While he obviously knew the command, he didn't
always obey it immediately sometimes wanting to fight the leash as you
would expect in the early stages.

It's fairly obvious which videos are home videos versus videos from
actual trainers, which often include their website, books or TV show
which you can research more fully if you are in doubt.

You can watch videos that highlight different stages in a dog's training
from knows nothing, to getting the message but not there yet, to Light
Bulb moment, to Smooth Operator.

--
Bad Dog Books
http://books.gityasome.com
Gityasome Tshirts
http://www.gityasome.com

On Sat, 16 Oct 2010 23:21:02 +0000 (UTC), amesnatlzoo
wrote:

andal wrote:
basically "stay" command is not needed as your goal is to teach Sierra
that "sit" means to drop the rear to ground and keep it that way until
released (remain seated). Same applies to "down" and "stand"commands.

Teaching "stay" as distinct from a positional makes the moving stand a
whole lot easier.

Indeed.

Most field trainers teach "whoa," not stay, anyway. Sit means sit.
Down means down. But whoa means to stop where you are, don't move
(i.e., freeze), and await further word from the handler. In the field
(primarily with pointers and setters, but also with spaniels and
retrievers) it's normally used to stop your dog from busting birds
from cover until you can get close enough (to both your dog and where
you think the birds are hiding) to get a better shot. You don't want
the birds to "flush" before you're within shotgun range. But it can be
used anytime your dog is standing, walking, or running, to get him to
stop and/or "stay" right there.

--
Dogman

On Sat, 16 Oct 2010 22:19:40 -0400, sighthounds & siberians wrote:

On Sat, 16 Oct 2010 23:21:02 +0000 (UTC), amesnatlzoo
wrote:

andal wrote:
basically "stay" command is not needed as your goal is to teach Sierra
that "sit" means to drop the rear to ground and keep it that way until
released (remain seated). Same applies to "down" and "stand"commands.

Teaching "stay" as distinct from a positional makes the moving stand a
whole lot easier.

Yeah, I don't agree with andal at all. "Stay" can be used in an
emergency (or non-emergency) when the dog is in motion and you want him
to stop in his tracks and stay stopped.

dogs are so intelligent that you can use any command imaginable, ask
Sharon, her dogs now thousands of them, she even wrote book about it

On Sat, 16 Oct 2010 22:16:05 -0400, Sharon Delarose wrote:

In article , andal
wrote:

basically "stay" command is not needed as your goal is to teach Sierra
that "sit" means to drop the rear to ground and keep it that way until
released (remain seated). Same applies to "down" and "stand"commands.

Okay, here's a trick question. If "sit" means "sit/stay" and "lay down"
means "lay down/stay" then what's the purpose of just plain "stay"? Why
would the command even exist?

command exists due to insecurity of handlers, they are not sure if dogs
are not going to question them: I'll sit but you never told me how long
to stay seated ? have you ? and now you have told me to stay yet again
you fail to tell me how long should I stay ?

On Sun, 17 Oct 2010 09:37:38 -0400, Sharon Delarose
wrote:

In article ,
sighthounds & siberians wrote:

It's not a show dog command. People in the show ring aren't
constantly commanding their dogs to stay; the dogs know to stay in the
stacked position. The command "stay" is a great safety feature if
your dog is in motion and you need him to stop in his tracks and stay
right where he is.

For your typical home dog then if "sit" and "lay down" would achieve the
same purpose to stop a dog in his tracks, why add the extra command?
Why not just have them sit or lay?

Especially if the dog is in motion and you are stopping them for a
safety reason, wouldn't they be less likely to break ranks from a
sit/lay position than a standing position? (Forgetting the argument
that your dog shouldn't ever break ranks, of course ;-)

I'm not seeing the logic on this one. I understand Matt's example and
that makes sense, but I'm not seeing it for a home dog. Can you give an
example of how "stay" as a safety measure should be used rather than
"sit" or "lay"?

I just spilled something toxic on the floor and my greyhound is coming
toward me. I don't want him any closer so I tell him to stay. Due to
their builds, most greyhounds don't do fast downs and sits the way
some breeds might, and some don't do them at all on hard surfaces. So
stay right where you are, standing up, would work. I'm carrying some
stuff in from the car, which I shouldn't have done because it caused
me to drop my greyhound's leash (he was walking beside me). Again,
telling him to sit or down ("lay" is not an obedience command) isn't
going to work, so I tell him to stay. I could make up more
scenarious, but you would probably just poke holes in them.

As you'd know if you'd taken a dog through beginning obedience, the
most basic commands are come, sit, down, and stay. Stay is not for
show dogs or home dogs or away dogs or performance dogs or agility
dogs; it's for all dogs. It means stop all motion and stay right
where you are, regardless of position.

Some might argue that all dogs should do a drop on recall, a lightning
fast sit, etc, just as they should all be 100% reliable on leash.
While all breeds of dogs are still dogs, I think that taking into
account one's breed is often useful and sometimes necessary when
training dogs, just as it is in other aspects of caring for them. In
addition to the fact that most greyhounds don't do lightning fast
sits, one of my greyhounds has lumbosacral stenosis. While it's
theoretically possible for him to sit, it is uncomfortable and perhaps
painful - who really knows, since dogs usually hide pain? Certainly
he can lie down, but it takes a while. But he can sure as hell stay
right where he is without any problem.

In article ,
sighthounds & siberians wrote:

I just spilled something toxic on the floor and my greyhound is coming
toward me. I don't want him any closer so I tell him to stay. Due to
their builds, most greyhounds don't do fast downs and sits the way
some breeds might, and some don't do them at all on hard surfaces. So
stay right where you are, standing up, would work. I'm carrying some
stuff in from the car, which I shouldn't have done because it caused
me to drop my greyhound's leash (he was walking beside me). Again,
telling him to sit or down ("lay" is not an obedience command) isn't
going to work, so I tell him to stay. I could make up more
scenarious, but you would probably just poke holes in them.

No, I see some of the possibilities now. I don't poke holes in
everything! My dogs hate our entryway floor, they don't even like to
walk on it because it is slick. If we're playing fetch in the house
with Dakota and the toy goes onto that floor, she stops her run and
walks across the floor slowly.

I had been thinking even if at a cross road, "heel" would have meant
"heel/sit/wait" if you stopped before crossing the road. That's why
examples are good.


As you'd know if you'd taken a dog through beginning obedience, the
most basic commands are come, sit, down, and stay. Stay is not for
show dogs or home dogs or away dogs or performance dogs or agility
dogs; it's for all dogs. It means stop all motion and stay right
where you are, regardless of position.

In other words, "freeze" in position.

I have been with the dogs where we approached something I did not want
them to walk in. Sometimes you have the option to go around easily,
sometimes you are in a tight spot where going around may take some
finesse and "freeze" would stop them in place while you figure out how
to prevent them from stepping in it, whether it be oil, dog poo, lawn
poison, or whatever.


Some might argue that all dogs should do a drop on recall, a lightning
fast sit, etc, just as they should all be 100% reliable on leash.
While all breeds of dogs are still dogs, I think that taking into
account one's breed is often useful and sometimes necessary when
training dogs, just as it is in other aspects of caring for them. In
addition to the fact that most greyhounds don't do lightning fast
sits, one of my greyhounds has lumbosacral stenosis. While it's
theoretically possible for him to sit, it is uncomfortable and perhaps
painful - who really knows, since dogs usually hide pain? Certainly
he can lie down, but it takes a while. But he can sure as hell stay
right where he is without any problem.

LOL! That's why I research the breeds we adopt, albeit after adopting,
to gain insight into what they may need in particular.

--
Bad Dog Books
http://books.gityasome.com
Gityasome Tshirts
http://www.gityasome.com

On Sun, 17 Oct 2010 15:25:10 -0400, Sharon Delarose
wrote:


I had been thinking even if at a cross road, "heel" would have meant
"heel/sit/wait" if you stopped before crossing the road.

Approaching a crossroad, the only thing a handler needs to pretty much
do is what he or she would normally do without the dog along. If you
stop, the dog will stop, and then sit. Automatically. It's all part of
the original "heel" command. To get going again, all one need do is
step out on the correct foot (usually the left foot). The dog will
then get up and continue walking by your side. Again, automatically.

That's why examples are good.

Actual training classes, either in group or privately, are even
better, Your Royal Highness. Then your loyal servants could actually
demonstrate the commands for you, and how they're taught, while you
were taking your tea or having your wig powdered.

--
Dogman

Sharon Delarose wrote in news:nobodyhome-
:

In article ,
amesnatlzoo wrote:

Teaching "stay" as distinct from a positional makes the moving stand a
whole lot easier.

Okay, you just answered my question from another post. Sounds more like
a show dog command than a companion dog command. I cannot think of a
time where I would have wanted my dog to stand here, then there, until I
said otherwise when sit or lay down or go away would work just as well.

Your dogs never get muddy? Mine do. It's pretty darned handy to have 'em
stand where I want them while I grab a towel and wipe down whoever needs
wiping.

Vets are grateful for a dog that will stand because it makes exams a lot
easier.

--
Mary H. and the restored Ames National Zoo:
The Right Reverand Sir Edgar "Lucky" Pan-Waffles (ret.);
U-CD ANZ Babylon Ranger, CD, RA; ANZ Pas de Duke, RN; ANZ Wizard Sassenan,
CGC; and rotund Rhia

In article ,
amesnatlzoo wrote:

Your dogs never get muddy? Mine do. It's pretty darned handy to have 'em
stand where I want them while I grab a towel and wipe down whoever needs
wiping.

Vets are grateful for a dog that will stand because it makes exams a lot
easier.

--
Mary H. and the restored Ames National Zoo:

Hey, that's a good one! Or coming in from the rain. Dakota likes the
rain and takes her time about pottying until she's soaking wet.

Dakota and Sierra both are very well behaved at the vet's office. I was
surprised at Sierra being so good even at her first visit.

--
Bad Dog Books
http://books.gityasome.com
Gityasome Tshirts
http://www.gityasome.com