On Wed, 10 Nov 2010 18:05:21 +0000 (UTC), sonofdog
wrote:

[...]
I meant pet owners hardly ever participate in competitive dog sports,
like obed, agility, flyball etc. That participation makes you and dog
competitive,and both of you are bonded by relationship.

What an arrogant statement.

I sure wish SOD would further elaborate on his/her comments. I don't
really understand the "competitive relationship" comment either.

I do think that competition can strengthen your bond with your dog, if
that is what he/she is saying.

But the "participation makes you and dog competitive" part throws me for
a loop.

SOD, how about clearing this up for us?

"competitive relationship" --- I was trying to say that handler and
dog are in relationship, bonded with each other, and both compete against
such other teams.

Okay, I think I understand that one.

"participation makes you and dog competitive" --- while competing you
want to win some contest and your dog wants to win you - meaning a reward
and greater bond.

hope this is clear now ?

Not so much.

But I haven't had my daily toddy yet, so...

--
Dogman

Dogman said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

If the dog happens to be moving, standing, or sitting (but
not already under any command), and I wanted him to "down,"
I'd just use the "down" command.

On the other hand, if the dog happens to be moving,
standing, or sitting (but not already under command) and I
wanted him to stop and/or freeze in that exact position,
I'd say "whoa."

Is that the way you use "wait"?

Sure, my dog can be in motion and when I give the "wait" she'll
stop. Mostly I use it when I want to later release her from a
distance, like from an agility start line.

I used to use it a lot more, especially in situations where
she's placed herself in some sort of position, like lying in her
crate in the vehicle (where it doesn't make sense to "down" her)
or after she's stopped herself at the bottom of the agility
dogwalk or A-frame. That's in training, though. Now, the
"wait" is implied in all of those situations and only a release
is needed.

--
--Matt.

On 10 Nov 2010 19:47:56 GMT, Matt wrote:

Dogman said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

But I still think sit means sit, and down
means down, and that having to throw in "reinforcers" all
the time simply means that the dog doesn't really know what
sit or down means.

Which is one reason I don't use those commands. They can
easily become crutches, not reinforcers.

I agree that sit mean sit, but I use wait all of the time. It's
always meant to all of my dogs to stay in the place or position
you are right now until I release you. IOW, it's a command, not
a reinforcer. It doesn't replace down.

I use it all the time too, Matt. One of the reasons I find it useful
for greyhounds is that they're not usually great at fast sits or fast
downs - so a "hold that position until released" is handy.

Having a friend and former student who does hunt tests (working on two
SHs right now) and obedience (has one with a CDX, one with a UD and
working on UDX, and the youngest is in Novice) with her Labs, I'm
familiar with the "whoa" meaning "freeze action". Like Matt, I'd use
"wait" if down or sit weren't pertinent.... such as while filling a
water dish in the dog's van crate.

I have used "sit" to stop an erring young terrier in mid-stride, and
"down" at a greater distance. I teach my dogs "down on recall" after I
have a solid "down" on lead and at short distances off lead (secure
area). But my dingbat terriers turn into "prey drive machines" often
before there is sound of prey animal movement and before I focus on the
slight movements they apparently see (or smell). In less time than it
takes me to blink.

And Dogman, you're right about "on lead" being the appropriate level of
attention from the owner.... unless working. We've had a nearly
week-long discussion about Border Terriers off lead, as it pertains to
safety, on our largest email group. Lots of bragging about 100%
recalls. Until one of our members wrote just yesterday that her well
trained, always-responsive obedience and agility dog zipped out through
a gate that was left ajar (by persons unknown) as owner dashed after
her, calling for a "down".... and the dog was hit and killed in front of
her, the previous day. It shut up the braggarts.

I live a long block from a suburban "main drag".... 4 traffic lanes and
a turn lane. My street is the main entrance into the subdivision. One
of my young dogs Climbed out of a corner of a chain link fence while I
was unloading the van. He took off like a flash at roughly Warp 9,
toward the main road. I grabbed a treat jar from the van and headed the
opposite direction, called him and "went down". He was sniffing at my
hands and treat jar held under my chin in seconds.... and back in
control. I capped all the corners..... with good ol' chicken wire. It
was a game we'd played a few times when he was a puppy.....

Life is interesting with dogs that are born with mining engineering
degrees and UMW union credentials.... so the base of each line of
fencing is "terrier-proofed". Schroeder was the first (and so far, only
one) of my guys to successfully climb out..... And there is a leash
hanging over the front doorknob..... even though they are taught and
regularly refreshed to not even think about dashing out the door.

It is estimated that the Border Terrier's hunting range is approximately
17 miles per day, if it doesn't get killed by a vehicle, caught in an
earth, or move in with someone who offered FOOD. They aren't as fast as
a sighthound or even a sporting dog (well, they'll give an American
Cocker a run for it's money), but they sure are faster than a lady of a
certain age..... and any other human.

To illustrate a Border Terrier's interpretation of "come" in the back
yard.... with pet level training, such as my first BT. I'd call him.
He'd look up and acknowledge me and go back to intently studying
something in the grass. The comic strip balloon over his head said,
"Be right with you. As soon as I finish observing the growth of this
blade of grass, record the observations, review the data, write the
article, send it to a peer review journal, get the comments back,
prepare my responses to the comments, and get my copy of the printed
journal in the mail." Indeed, If I didn't march out there and review
the household rules with him immediately, he would happily come
trotting up to me in about 2 minutes. That's when we moved on to
adanced work.... to correct that free-thinking sort of response.

If the animal you are working with is a dog, you can never trust that
you will get a 100% recall off leash. Every time you call the dog, the
conditions surrounding that are different. You can only go by the dog's
record up to the instant that you give each recall command. They are
Dogs. That's why so much work is needed to proof and proof and proof.
But I have trouble getting prey animals to cooperate when I'm training
the dogs..

Jo Wolf
Martinez, Georgia

I"ll lend you my youngest terrier, Dogman. He's just turning 3, and has
those damn Swiss cheese holes in his brain that are filled with a
substance that causes him to think that there are times when he can
selectively change or ignore orders from headquarters..... {grin} At
present, and I've had him less than a year.... his 3rd home since
leaving his breeder.... he's had a 100% recall since arrival, but he and
I spent months curing his issues with sit-means-sit-NOW-and-until....,
and are still working on perfecting his downs.... stationary, moving in
heel, and on recall. That said, he's been highly effective at helping
two "kennel dogs" master great re-calls

The best I can figure out, his second owner, who had a trainer come to
the house, insisted on a killer recall, but rarely, if ever, enforced
sit and down commands...... and allowed him to mimic a Siberian Husky on
caffiene and harnessed for racing, when it comes to on-lead work. This
confused me, as her primary breed is the PWD.... which would have tipped
her over with that type of pull.

The old man, at 15, is almost totally deaf, but can hear my hands
clapping, and comes running. After dark, a flashlight gets his
attention quickly and a flick of the wrist with the light, showing him
which door I want him to come to, brings him trotting up the yard
promptly, his Cuz stuffed in his mouth. But if there was another
blasted 'possum down in the bushes, I'd have to go get him. (I know of
8 that he's killed, and one he's eaten.... part of it in front of me, as
he was responding to a come command which was simply Not going to
interupt his snackie-poo.... I got a case of the urka-gurkas...)

Life with terriers just ain't like life with Retrievers.... {chuckle}
Border Terriers plot and scheme, plan, execute, evaluate, and try three
new (also highly effective) methods of achieving their goals. We spend
a lot of time trying to out-guess the little buggers and inventing 25
new ways of convincing the dog that following a command instantly is
the dog's idea. Getting a fail-safe recall from a 30 foot earth with
three 90° turns a second after the rats have been removed following 90
seconds or more of frantic barking and digging that leaves the dog
Really Jazzed is a part of Earthdog.

Yes, field-type retrievers have plenty of prey drive. But it's
moderated, as is the prey drive of the herding dog. In terriers, that
prey drive is still very "raw". Of all of the dogs, only the terriers
and dachshunds were specifically developed to kill their prey.... and
often to find it first, usually by tracking (at which they are
excellent), secondarily by sighting (great lure coursers,,,, for fun).
They had to make their own decisions 10 feet underground, to stay alive,
and that's where the work ethic differences come from.

We have to adjust training methods to a greater or lesser degree to get
the results we want, on top of the ground. But you can't train out
instinct. You can only hope that you can give a command before the dog
"locks in" on prey. That lock-in may never happen at a time when the
dog needs to be under voice control. Or it may happen frequently. You
can, however, Expect the terrier at some time to question whether the
owner is giving the right command at the right time; that's what keeps
him alive underground with a badger or a fox. Our results have gotten
tremendously better with the advent of food in training and with less
physical (force) training methods.

When I was new to the breed, few Border Terriers earned obedience titles
(agility wasn't around yet), but now they are "common" (given a
reletively small population) in obedience and agility, and
proportionally (numbers again), are the highest of the terrier breeds in
Earthdog. But our national club still offers annual awards for the most
humorous non-qualifying performance in obedience (Eddie Award) and in
agility (Harry Award).


Jo Wolf
Martinez, Georgia

On Fri, 12 Nov 2010 02:24:56 -0500, (Jo Wolf) wrote:


Yes, field-type retrievers have plenty of prey drive. But it's
moderated, as is the prey drive of the herding dog. In terriers, that
prey drive is still very "raw". Of all of the dogs, only the terriers
and dachshunds were specifically developed to kill their prey.... and
often to find it first, usually by tracking (at which they are
excellent), secondarily by sighting (great lure coursers,,,, for fun).

I'm not sure what you mean by "of all the dogs"; sighthounds killed
their prey and their breeding encouraged that. Siberian Huskies were
bred to pull, not hunt, but I think most dog people are aware that
they do very well hunting, killing and eating prey. I agree with you,
Jo - I believe that what a dog's prey drive is channeled for has
everything to do with his behavior. Greyhounds and other sighthounds
were bred to hunt and kill prey in cooperation with each other but
independent of humans. This instinct shows itself regularly in
sighthounds, although it's usually misinterpreted as "stupid",
"stubborn" and "hard to train". Animals bred to bring down prey are
just going to have a totally different outlook on "running cat vs.
recall command" than retrievers. When you add reinforcing the
instinct to run, as in racing greyhounds and Siberian Huskies, you get
dogs that, not surprisingly, will do anything to run.

Is it possible to train some greyhounds, terriers, Siberian Huskies,
etc. to a 100% recall and off-leash reliability? Sure. Usually it's
the ones (big surprise here) with lower prey drives. Is an owner who
is unable to achieve 100% off-leash reliability with those breeds a
failure? Nope. If off-leash reliability is a top-5 goal, get a
different breed.

On Fri, 12 Nov 2010 02:24:56 -0500, (Jo Wolf) wrote:

[...]
Getting a fail-safe recall from a 30 foot earth with
three 90° turns a second after the rats have been removed following 90
seconds or more of frantic barking and digging that leaves the dog
Really Jazzed is a part of Earthdog.

Could you please elaborate on that? I'm not sure I understand what
you're saying there. I don't understand the lingo.

Yes, field-type retrievers have plenty of prey drive. But it's
moderated, as is the prey drive of the herding dog. In terriers, that
prey drive is still very "raw".
[...]

Personally, I think that's hog wash, Jo. You may, however, have
somehow convinced yourself of that. I have this same discussion with
Sally (regarding sighthounds) from time to time, and I'm never going
to convince her otherwise, either. Actually, I'm not really trying to
convince anyone of anything, I'm just stating my opinion. And my
opinion is based on my own experiences.

But you can't train out instinct.

I can't imagine why anyone would even try to do that, Jo, but you can
train a dog to subjugate those instincts to proper cues, and to obey
commands. And to do it under the strongest of distractions. Now, it's
very hard to do this with a dog that's been free to exercise his
"instincts" for many, many years, and most trainers wouldn't even take
a person's money to even try - but it can be done.

Which is why it's so important to start training a dog as early as
possible, before those instincts have a chance to fully form and
become reinforced by continued success.

I breed horses, too, and most horse people will tell you the same kind
of things about, say, stallions, whose *very* strong instincts are to
fight, flee & to breed. They're dangerous, they can't be trusted
around other horses, they can't be controlled around mares, yada yada
yada.

I'm gazing out at a pasture where I keep four young stallions
together, and they're not exactly gentle animals, but they get along
with each other, they can be hand-bred, and even loaded into trailers
by complete strangers.

All because of proper training, rearing, and handling. Those instincts
are still there, but they have become secondary to their training.

--
Dogman

To sighthounds 7 Siberians - Mea culpa for leaving out the sighthounds
as specific prey killers. Yup, that alleged "stubborness" is merely the
dog's instincts directed differently from those of the retrievers.
Training is Quite possible, but takes ingenuity and often different
techniques and approaches from those used with breeds that work for/with
humans as their roles in life. And an acceptance of the fact that there
are times when 100% of any human issued commands will apparently not
register and not happen. Additional work needs to be done to reduce the
likelihood of that happening. Not all owners can or will follow through
to that extent.

Dogman - Okay.... I"ll start from scratch. The earthdog den is manmade,
sinking a wooden liner (top and two sides, bottom open to the soil. For
titling classes it's 30 feet long, 9" high, 9" wide, and has 3 right
angle turns. The floor is scented with rat urine solution, as is the
lead-up to the entrance. It is then covered with dirt and some degree
of trimmings at the entrance to look fairly natural. At the far end is
a shallow pit where the rats are set in a cage.... and there is a
grating, usually of dowel rods, to keep the dogs away from the cage.
This is the Junior ED den. The dog must reach the grating and start to
"work" within 30 seconds and keep it up for 60 seconds. "Work" is
digging and/or barking. At that point the rats are lifted away and the
handler pulls the dog out through a trap door above the grating.

At the Senior level, distractions are added.... a false exit, a sleeping
chamber, which the dog may explore, but ignore to reach the far end and
work for the same period of time.

At the Master level, two dogs are released in the much larger den area
and hunt for the den. One enters and the second is held and tied to a
spade stuck into the ground. The honoring dog must remain tethered and
quiet enough that it doesn't interfere with hearing the working dog.
Inside the den are the false exit and sleeping chamber, plus a floating
bar sort of thing to mimic a tree root, narrowing the passage from top
to bottom. The traverse time remains 30 seconds, the work time moves up
to 90 seconds, at which time the rats are removed and the handler calls
the dog out.... there is a time limit on that, too, which evades my at
the moment. The first dog to work is then tethered and the second
works.

When the Master level was introduced there was great concern about the
working dogs recalling! We soon learned that this is a trainable
thing..... once the dog learns that the rats are always removed and the
fun is over. It just takes longer with some dogs than others.... and
access to a Master den for that training.

Note that many of the dogs flip on one side to "run" the straight
stretches of the den, sliding on their sides. Each breed approaches the
"working" slightly differently.

Jo Wolf
Martinez, Georgia

Added...... Some of the terriers, expecially in Senior and Master, bite
at the dowel rods that block the end of the den, and break them (1 inch
dowels), so the test-giving club always has extra sets.....

Jo Wolf
Martinez, Georgia

On Fri, 12 Nov 2010 15:10:18 -0500, (Jo Wolf) wrote:

And an acceptance of the fact that there
are times when 100% of any human issued commands will apparently not
register and not happen.

If you accept "the fact" that it's not possible, it will never be
possible.

I don't accept any such thing.

Dogman - Okay.... I"ll start from scratch.
[...]

Thanks for the explanation, Jo! The closest I've been to Earthdog
games is watching them on TV. Sounds like a lot of fun!

When the Master level was introduced there was great concern about the
working dogs recalling! We soon learned that this is a trainable
thing..... once the dog learns that the rats are always removed and the
fun is over. It just takes longer with some dogs than others.... and
access to a Master den for that training.

But doesn't that prove my point, kiddo?

We soon learned that this is a trainable
thing..... once the dog learns that the rats are always removed and the
fun is over.

That's precisely the way we train retrievers - the dogs quickly learn
that they don't get to retrieve the bird unless they OBEY the handler.
We actually depend on those strong instincts to retrieve (the stronger
the better, in fact!).

But they only get to do it by first OBEYING the handler's command.

--
Dogman