On Nov 22, 5:39*pm, Char wrote:
On 11/22/2010 4:08 AM, Phyrie wrote:



"P E Schoen" wrote in ...

snip of stuff

She has a unique setup where packs of dogs may run free in large
fenced areas. It takes a lot of skill to rehabilitate and socialize
these dogs so that they can be trusted to interact safely.

Will someone please explain to me why you would ever want your dog to
congregate in a pack? Why would anyone find it important that their pet
dog feel comfortable running with a bunch of strange dogs?

Dog parks would be a good example. Vet's office is another. Why would
you *not* want a dog to be socialized around other dogs? How strange!

You think dogs at vet's offices should be mingling with other dogs?
Really? How about focusing on their owners, behaving, and ignoreing
the other dogs. I hate dog parks. Truly. My dogs are quite well
socialized and have no need to be tossed in with a bunch of ill-
mannered pooches and their clueless owners. My dogs have each other,
some select friends, and do dog sports in teams of dogs. All very
cooperative and social, yet they don't have to get tossed in with a
strange pack to be that way. Go figure.

In article ,
"cshenk" wrote:

If it is Sammy's time, it is. He'll have the best care I can provide. I
may not be perfect, but it was some nameless number in a cage which was all
Mabel Anne or Sammy had in their future.

There are guardians angels and one just posted here!

Seriously, you truly are an angel for these guys. May all the goodness
you give to them come back to you manyfold, as I know it will.

--
Bad Dog Books
http://books.gityasome.com
Gityasome Tshirts
http://www.gityasome.com

"Phyrie" said in
rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

Will someone please explain to me why you would ever want
your dog to congregate in a pack?

I don't see a problem with dogs congregating in a pack. My
definition of "pack", though, includes describers like
"supervised" and "not huge".

Why would anyone find it
important that their pet dog feel comfortable running with
a bunch of strange dogs?

Confidence? Properly introduced, they'll build friendships.
I've taken care of many undersocialised dogs who grow to realise
that strange dogs aren't all scary - whether it's rolling over
to every stranger or snapping at them.
--
--Matt.

On Nov 23, 12:58*pm, Matt wrote:

Why would anyone find it
important that their pet dog feel comfortable running with
a bunch of strange dogs?

Confidence? *Properly introduced, they'll build friendships. *
I've taken care of many undersocialised dogs who grow to realise
that strange dogs aren't all scary - whether it's rolling over
to every stranger or snapping at them.
--
--Matt.

My dogs pretty much ignore strange dogs. They see a zilion at every
flyball tournament after all, and that isn't a time for playing with
each other. I admit to not trusting JQP dog owner much when it comes
to their dogs being off leash. Marcie does make googoo eyes at older
male FCRs though, and all of my dogs seem drawn to Poodles, CKCS and
Paps. I always wonder if it is because I am, or whether the qualities
in those breed just make them a good match for all of us.

"P E Schoen" wrote in message ...

"Phyrie" wrote in message ...

Will someone please explain to me why you would ever want your dog to
congregate in a pack? Why would anyone find it important that their pet
dog feel comfortable running with a bunch of strange dogs? Around here,
one dog running around loose MIGHT not be noticed, but if it's two or
more, they are likely to be shot as deer runners. I don't need my dog
to be friends with a bunch of dogs. I need him to be friends with ME.
And he is. That might be why he stays home. What a concept.

And will someone explain to me why you apparently feel that the
traditional model for a shelter/rescue with cage after cage of animals
allowed to interact only by seeing each other and barking through metal
fencing is somehow better than having them socialize in a more natural
setting with other dogs and people?

Where did you see me say ANYTHING about what I feel about the "traditional
model" for a shelter? WTF are you talking about???


Also, don't you think it's better to take your dog places where he can
meet other people and dogs? Or do you and Kiba just hole up in your house
and yard like hermits?

Again, where did I say that Kiba wasn't socialized or that we are hermits?
You are seeing things that aren't there, Schoen.


Sheesh!

Indeedy!!

"Char" wrote in message
news
On 11/22/2010 4:08 AM, Phyrie wrote:


"P E Schoen" wrote in message ...

snip of stuff

She has a unique setup where packs of dogs may run free in large
fenced areas. It takes a lot of skill to rehabilitate and socialize
these dogs so that they can be trusted to interact safely.

Will someone please explain to me why you would ever want your dog to
congregate in a pack? Why would anyone find it important that their pet
dog feel comfortable running with a bunch of strange dogs?

Dog parks would be a good example. Vet's office is another. Why would you
*not* want a dog to be socialized around other dogs? How strange!

Where did I say Kiba wasn't socialized around dogs? Hmmm? I said I don't
want him running with a pack of dogs. There's a big difference. But it is
always all or nothing with you, isn't it?

I have heard too many horror stories of buffoons taking their aggressive
animals to dog parks and letting them bully all the dogs there to have any
interest in taking Kiba to one, even if we had one here, which we don't.

And anyone with half a brain doesn't let their dog "socialize" at the vet.
And if you do, I'm surprised your vet lets you come back. Oh, right, you
don't go to vets, do you?
I'll fill you in on proper behaviour at the vets: you DON'T allow your pet
to approach ANY other animal. Animals at the vet are sick, or hurt, and if
not, they are almost always under stress. It's hardly the environment for
your dog to be making friends. And besides that, you don't know why the
other animals are in there. What if it is for mange, or fleas, or coccidia,
or any other contagious disease? Do you really want to let your dog be
exposed to gawdknows what? I know I don't.

"Matt" wrote in message
...

"Phyrie" said in
rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

Will someone please explain to me why you would ever want
your dog to congregate in a pack?

I don't see a problem with dogs congregating in a pack. My
definition of "pack", though, includes describers like
"supervised" and "not huge".

Why would anyone find it
important that their pet dog feel comfortable running with
a bunch of strange dogs?

Confidence? Properly introduced, they'll build friendships.
I've taken care of many undersocialised dogs who grow to realise
that strange dogs aren't all scary - whether it's rolling over
to every stranger or snapping at them.
--
--Matt.

Oh, Kiba has friends. He's not unsocialized, and I don't recall saying he
was. I just have a problem with the idea of hordes of dogs running around
like maniacs, unsupervised (as you said). Kiba doesn't have a problem
hanging out with other dogs, he just prefers to be with us, and that's OK
with me. He gets along very well with my daughter's dogs, and the
babysitter's dogs, and the boarding facility dogs (although we stick to the
babysitter most of the time now). His best bud is a husky/lab cross that
belongs to a friend of mine. Charlie is overly exuberant when he plays with
Kiba, and Kiba ends up completely covered in saliva, but they do have fun!
Once Kiba is tuckered out, though, he comes to me, and sits under my chair.
Charlie is wise enough to leave him alone for awhile.

On Tue, 23 Nov 2010 14:56:20 -0800, "Phyrie"
wrote:

[...]
I'll fill you in on proper behaviour at the vets: you DON'T allow your pet
to approach ANY other animal. Animals at the vet are sick, or hurt, and if
not, they are almost always under stress. It's hardly the environment for
your dog to be making friends. And besides that, you don't know why the
other animals are in there. What if it is for mange, or fleas, or coccidia,
or any other contagious disease? Do you really want to let your dog be
exposed to gawdknows what? I know I don't.

Yeah, what she said.

--
Dogman

"Phyrie" wrote in message ...

"P E Schoen" wrote in message ...

"Phyrie" wrote in message
...

Will someone please explain to me why you would ever want your dog to
congregate in a pack? Why would anyone find it important that their pet
dog feel comfortable running with a bunch of strange dogs? Around here,
one dog running around loose MIGHT not be noticed, but if it's two or
more, they are likely to be shot as deer runners. I don't need my dog
to be friends with a bunch of dogs. I need him to be friends with ME.
And he is. That might be why he stays home. What a concept.

And will someone explain to me why you apparently feel that the
traditional model for a shelter/rescue with cage after cage of animals
allowed to interact only by seeing each other and barking through metal
fencing is somehow better than having them socialize in a more natural
setting with other dogs and people?

Where did you see me say ANYTHING about what I feel about the "traditional
model" for a shelter? WTF are you talking about???

I was describing an animal shelter, rescue, sanctuary, or whatever you may
wish to call it. And if you had read for content rather than points of
contention, you would have understood that. I am not saying that this is a
place for people to take their dogs for regular socialization, but I think
it was good for Muttley and I to visit there. It was good to see him be well
behaved in a pack of dogs that was also well balanced, due to the skillful
influence of the woman who runs the facility.

It is certainly a better place to take ones dog than a dog park.


Also, don't you think it's better to take your dog places where
he can meet other people and dogs? Or do you and Kiba just
hole up in your house and yard like hermits?

Again, where did I say that Kiba wasn't socialized or that we are hermits?
You are seeing things that aren't there, Schoen.

You imply that you don't approve of a pet dog interacting with other dogs he
does not know ("strange dogs"). So how has he come to be friends with other
dogs? What are the conditions of his (and your) socialization? You are
rather selfish about caring only that Kiba be friends with YOU. It is
important to have a dog socialized with other people and dogs, because
normal people will encounter them occasionally and it is good to know your
dog's reactions and take steps to make such meetings safe and enjoyable for
all.

How does your dog react when you meet other people or dogs? Do you even
allow it? I have allowed Muttley to meet and interact with people who come
to my house, and I have taken him many places such as shopping malls,
campgrounds, festivals, concerts, and motels, where he meets a lot of
"strange" people.

And I have also taken him places where he can meet other dogs, and usually
that has gone well. But I also have encountered situations where he has
acted inappropriately, so now I know that and I can take precautions to
prevent it from happening again. However, he has proven to be able to
interact properly in a well-balanced pack of dogs, as shown in my video. And
I think that's a good thing.

Paul and Muttley
www.muttleydog.com

"P E Schoen" wrote in message ...

And will someone explain to me why you apparently feel that the
traditional model for a shelter/rescue with cage after cage of animals
allowed to interact only by seeing each other and barking through metal
fencing is somehow better than having them socialize in a more natural
setting with other dogs and people?

Where did you see me say ANYTHING about what I feel about the
"traditional model" for a shelter? WTF are you talking about???

I was describing an animal shelter, rescue, sanctuary, or whatever you may
wish to call it. And if you had read for content rather than points of
contention, you would have understood that. I am not saying that this is a
place for people to take their dogs for regular socialization, but I think
it was good for Muttley and I to visit there. It was good to see him be
well behaved in a pack of dogs that was also well balanced, due to the
skillful influence of the woman who runs the facility.

I don't want to call it anything. I don't care what you call it. I was
questioning the value of having your dog join a pack of strange dogs, simply
for the purpose of running around with a pack of strange dogs.

It is certainly a better place to take ones dog than a dog park.

I wouldn't know, we don't have any dog parks here. But I have read scary
reports about what happens at them. I'm pretty sure that's not a place I
would chose to socialize my dog, even if I could.

Also, don't you think it's better to take your dog places where
he can meet other people and dogs? Or do you and Kiba just
hole up in your house and yard like hermits?

Again, where did I say that Kiba wasn't socialized or that we are
hermits? You are seeing things that aren't there, Schoen.

You imply that you don't approve of a pet dog interacting with other dogs
he does not know ("strange dogs"). So how has he come to be friends with
other dogs? What are the conditions of his (and your) socialization? You
are rather selfish about caring only that Kiba be friends with YOU. It is
important to have a dog socialized with other people and dogs, because
normal people will encounter them occasionally and it is good to know your
dog's reactions and take steps to make such meetings safe and enjoyable for
all.

I imply nothing at all. I SAID I can't see any why anyone would allow their
dog to run in a pack with strange dogs. I have no control over what you
infer.
Kiba is happily socialized and has dog friends. He likes people more than
dogs, though. On the other hand, he has NEVER bitten another dog, nor a
person. EVER. So, who's dog is better socialized?

How does your dog react when you meet other people or dogs? Do you even
allow it? I have allowed Muttley to meet and interact with people who come
to my house, and I have taken him many places such as shopping malls,
campgrounds, festivals, concerts, and motels, where he meets a lot of
"strange" people.

Ah, yes, you have taken Muttley into situations like that. Let's see, what
was it happened last time? Oh, yes, he tried to KILL A PUPPY! Way to
"socialize" your dog, Schoen. You do realize that socialized doesn't mean
"murder", right?

And I have also taken him places where he can meet other dogs, and usually
that has gone well. But I also have encountered situations where he has
acted inappropriately, so now I know that and I can take precautions to
prevent it from happening again. However, he has proven to be able to
interact properly in a well-balanced pack of dogs, as shown in my video.
And I think that's a good thing.

Do you want me to count off for you the number of times Muttley has
attacked? And not just dogs, but humans as well? There's nothing
well-socialized about him. There's simply "luck" in that he hasn't attacked
and killed every time you take him into another stressful situation.
You "know that now"??? You've known for YEARS that Muttley is unpredictable
and dangerous around other dogs, but you continue to expose him to other
animals. That's not "socialization", Schoen, that's throwing loaded dice.
And they ain't loaded in your favour. Schmuck.