Looking for help on peeing behavior and older dogs.

Mabel Anne is estimated 7-12 and we estimate 10-12 more right. She's used
to a doggie door but there is no way to install one here.

Any specifics on how to retrain an older dog on this would be helpful. So
far, we think we can keep her and work it out. That is the desire as she's
too old for most to ever consider adopting.

On Mon, 22 Nov 2010 19:30:30 -0500, "cshenk" wrote:

Looking for help on peeing behavior and older dogs.

Mabel Anne is estimated 7-12 and we estimate 10-12 more right. She's used
to a doggie door but there is no way to install one here.

Any specifics on how to retrain an older dog on this would be helpful. So
far, we think we can keep her and work it out. That is the desire as she's
too old for most to ever consider adopting.

Has she had accidents, or do you have reason to believe that she won't
be able to hold it as long as your other dogs? If not, just let her
out when you let the other dogs out - she'll catch on that there's no
dog door and that she needs to wait like they do.

"cshenk" said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

So
far, we think we can keep her and work it out. That is the
desire as she's too old for most to ever consider adopting.

Peeing inside is a relatively small issue and I encourage you to
work it out with her.

First, I'm pretty sure you have ruled out health issues like a
UTI or incontinence (is she peeing or leaking?).

Second, as Dogman wrote, treat her as a puppy; ie: put her on a
schedule you think best fits into your schedule, starting with
often and graduating to when you figure she needs to go out.
Party with her when she's successful.

Forgive her when she simply won't pee outside. I'm pretty
forgiving with some of the dogs in my house: It's been -30C here
for a few days and one or two dogs would rather (try to) hold it
until they can't.

--
--Matt.

"sighthounds & siberians" wrote
"cshenk" wrote:

Looking for help on peeing behavior and older dogs.

Mabel Anne is estimated 7-12 and we estimate 10-12 more right. She's used
to a doggie door but there is no way to install one here.

Has she had accidents, or do you have reason to believe that she won't
be able to hold it as long as your other dogs? If not, just let her
out when you let the other dogs out - she'll catch on that there's no
dog door and that she needs to wait like they do.

She goes out everytime they do.

As of today this seems to have cleared? Don remembered that as we get
older, we don't always 'clear bladder' right away especially first in the
morning.

She had 1 accident that can be discounted. First time in the house about 3
mins later. We were trying to get her to follow to the back door and she'd
been 2 hours in the car. Unknown when she last peed before that. Thats
just confusion and overfull bladder in a strange place.

The second incident is a bit hard to define but could have been 'bladder not
fully empty'. She went out to pee at 05:30 with Cash and Sammy. At about
06:30 she peed on the carpet. No more incidents that day and she looked
pretty sheepish. She doesn't know how to tell us yet that she has to go.

Third incident worried me as it was 3rd day. About 08:30 (taken out at
05:30 and again at about 06:15). Don now says 'possibly submissive peeing'
or just scsred of Cash and Sammy, both of which are bigger by far.

Today, no problems. Also, although she is deaf, tonight we saw signs that
she seems to have noticed that if she's looking at Sammy or Cash and they
flop their ears, we let them out. She flopped her ears at me 5 mins ago and
I took the tribe out and she peed then got a treat.

I really want to keep her. I think, perhaps this was self solving but asked
for help early because early intervention is best.

She's slowly teaching us how to work with a deaf dog ;-)

"Dogman" wrote
"cshenk" wrote:

Looking for help on peeing behavior and older dogs.

Mabel Anne is estimated 7-12 and we estimate 10-12 more right. She's used
to a doggie door but there is no way to install one here.

Any specifics on how to retrain an older dog on this would be helpful. So
far, we think we can keep her and work it out. That is the desire as
she's
too old for most to ever consider adopting.

According to the web site, she never made a mistake at her previous
place. Your lack of a doggy door would not necessarily account for her
recent mistakes (2 accidents in 2 days, both 30 minutes after taking
her outside in the AM).

True, and thank you for the reply. I ran into the replies sequentially so
the earlier post may tag it. I hope so.

If it's valid that an older dog may need a second trip first in the morning
(Lord knows I do! girl thing) then it was just not knowing the dog's needs.

You also mentioned (I think) that she's being treated for heartworms,
but I may have my dogs mixed up. If she is, she may be (or has been)
taking prednisone (or maybe even antibiotics), which can cause
incontinence. Is she drinking a lot of water?

He is indeed, as Cash was when we got him. We took a 'similar problem' dog
on. It seemed best to deal with what we have some experience level in.
Those are heartworm recovery and arthritis. Also mini-seizures common to
some breeds (beagles among them and Cash and Mabel have them).

She doesn't seem to drink more than normal to me but she may have been on
meds and I suspect antibiotics are a high possible. She isnt *now*.

If I were you, I'd treat her just like a new puppy, until you have had
more time to observe her. That means she can't be allowed out of your
sight when she's not in her crate or outside. Carefully regulate her
"inputs" and "outputs," so that you can more easily *anticipate* her
needs.

Thats close to what we are doing. She isnt crate trained though and
although I no longer feel this is a 'bad thing to do', I feel no need to
start that path with a hunting dog of this age. Other than some peeing
incidents, she's been perfectly well behaved in the house.

At night, she's baby-gated to the back room where her bed is. Daytime, she
roams with the other 2. Don is fully retired so watches her and if he needs
to go to the store, she's baby-gated again to the back room for now.

Plus, did she not "go" at all (when outside), those two mornings she
made mistakes? Try taking her outside a little later (while still
keeping a close eye on her), and staying out there a little longer. In
fact, don't bring her in until she "goes."

You just can't allow her to make anymore mistakes.

She went both times per Don at 05:30. Me, I get up a little later.

Also, it's not unheard of that shelters/fosters sometimes lie about a
dog being housebroken.

Snicker, *if* that is true, it was true of Cash. It was easy to fix. Today
there were no pee in the house incidents from Mabel Anne. She's been here
since Saturday afternoon so 3 days.

"Matt" wrote
"cshenk" said

So
far, we think we can keep her and work it out. That is the
desire as she's too old for most to ever consider adopting.

Peeing inside is a relatively small issue and I encourage you to
work it out with her.

We are. She's getting along very well with the other 2 dogs and though she
hasn't bonded yet to the cat, it looks like that will happen. She's at the
least, 'cat tolerant' and doesn't mess with them.

First, I'm pretty sure you have ruled out health issues like a
UTI or incontinence (is she peeing or leaking?).

I have almost no info other than what was on the web page as of yet. I am a
temp foster so the main one can have her first family T-day away from the
local area in years.

If we are right and the peeing issue is solved, we file for adoption and
then we get copies of the medical records (we can get them as fosters too
but this was a fast swap to house for a week with a known good family).

Second, as Dogman wrote, treat her as a puppy; ie: put her on a
schedule you think best fits into your schedule, starting with
often and graduating to when you figure she needs to go out.
Party with her when she's successful.

Grin, pretty much what we have done.

Forgive her when she simply won't pee outside. I'm pretty
forgiving with some of the dogs in my house: It's been -30C here
for a few days and one or two dogs would rather (try to) hold it
until they can't.

Not a worry, I'd understand that too! Cash will NOT go out if it's raining
until desperate. In a hurricane? Forget it! He's gonna pee on the kitchen
floor with terrified little eyes.

"cshenk" wrote in message
...

Third incident worried me as it was 3rd day. About 08:30 (taken out at
05:30 and again at about 06:15). Don now says 'possibly
submissive peeing' or just scsred of Cash and Sammy, both of which
are bigger by far.

Today, no problems. Also, although she is deaf, tonight we saw signs that
she seems to have noticed that if she's looking at Sammy
or Cash and they flop their ears, we let them out. She flopped her
ears at me 5 mins ago and I took the tribe out and she peed then
got a treat.

I really want to keep her. I think, perhaps this was self solving but
asked for help early because early intervention is best.

She's slowly teaching us how to work with a deaf dog ;-)

That must be a challenge and I'm glad you have made progress. Muttley was
not fully housetrained for about six months, but I think his "accidents"
were actually marking messages to my cat, who had lived there six years
before he arrived. I usually kept him outside and he seemed happy to go out.
But one day he gave me a "message" that he wanted to stay in; I trusted him
and there were no more messes. I think it was a matter of him feeling that
the house was truly his "den".

He was about 2 years old at that time and it may also have been a matter of
maturation and adjustment to a life much different than was his experience
on the street in the 'hood. Mabel Anne has only had a few days to make this
adjustment, and it takes time for a dog to feel comfortable in a new pack
and recognize the house as her den, which is not to be soiled. I hope you
are able to keep her.

Paul and Muttley
www.muttleydog.com

"P E Schoen" wrote
"cshenk" wrote

Today, no problems. Also, although she is deaf, tonight we saw signs
that she seems to have noticed that if she's looking at Sammy
or Cash and they flop their ears, we let them out. She flopped her
ears at me 5 mins ago and I took the tribe out and she peed then
got a treat.

I really want to keep her. I think, perhaps this was self solving but
asked for help early because early intervention is best.

She's slowly teaching us how to work with a deaf dog ;-)

That must be a challenge and I'm glad you have made progress. Muttley was
not fully housetrained for about six months, but I think his "accidents"
were actually marking messages to my cat, who had lived there six years
before he arrived. I usually kept him outside and he seemed happy to go
out.

Paul, I'm not sure how to explain it but there is a world of difference
between your story and what is happening here.

I don't claim to be the best 'dog person' by any means but no dog marks in
the house. There *may* be an 'accident or 2' but unless your cat is marking
the house and it smells to high heaven of cat ****, dogs don't do that.
It's basic training only.

Don tells me a stubborn puppy (once old enough to house train, about 4 weeks
is when he starts) is pretty reliable 2 months later. An older dog can
train in 3-5 days. It's much like potty training a human child. You have to
wait for their muscle development to support the full verion.

The only issue here was if I needed some special advice for older dogs
taught to use a doggie door which physically there is no way to add here.

Crossing fingers but she seems to have adapted as of day 3. I don't think
any here mind if i asked early for help for a problem that may have solved
itself.

On Tue, 23 Nov 2010 21:00:02 -0500, "cshenk" wrote:

"P E Schoen" wrote
"cshenk" wrote

Today, no problems. Also, although she is deaf, tonight we saw signs
that she seems to have noticed that if she's looking at Sammy
or Cash and they flop their ears, we let them out. She flopped her
ears at me 5 mins ago and I took the tribe out and she peed then
got a treat.

I really want to keep her. I think, perhaps this was self solving but
asked for help early because early intervention is best.

She's slowly teaching us how to work with a deaf dog ;-)

That must be a challenge and I'm glad you have made progress. Muttley was
not fully housetrained for about six months, but I think his "accidents"
were actually marking messages to my cat, who had lived there six years
before he arrived. I usually kept him outside and he seemed happy to go
out.

Paul, I'm not sure how to explain it but there is a world of difference
between your story and what is happening here.

Trying to explain anything to Paul is pretty much a lost cause, Carol.

I don't claim to be the best 'dog person' by any means but no dog marks in
the house. There *may* be an 'accident or 2' but unless your cat is marking
the house and it smells to high heaven of cat ****, dogs don't do that.
It's basic training only.

That's not really true. Dogs do mark in the house (I've had countless
dogs mark in mine), but it's not to send a message to a cat. Dogs and
cats recognize each other as entirely different species and however
much a particular animal is concerned about hierarcy and pecking
order, IME a dog isn't threatened by a cat or vice versa. Male dogs
might mark in the house if another dog has, if they walk into a house
that smells like other dogs, if they're especially dominant, if they
haven't been taught not to. It's an entirely different issue from
housebreaking, and it's usually not hard to tell whether you're
dealing with marking or accidents by their location.

I can't imagine an adult dog taking 6 months to be housebroken. In
Muttley's case, I'm sure it was human error. For one thing, it's
pretty difficult for a dog to understand that a house is its den when
it's being kept outside. Duh. And housebreaking a dog 'off the
streets' is no different than housebreaking any other dog. I've had
numerous dogs 'off the streets' land here for good and had no problem
housebreaking them quickly - and I am not a dog trainer or whisperer
or genius or anything.

Don tells me a stubborn puppy (once old enough to house train, about 4 weeks
is when he starts) is pretty reliable 2 months later. An older dog can
train in 3-5 days. It's much like potty training a human child. You have to
wait for their muscle development to support the full verion.

That's pretty much the difference between housebreaking a puppy and an
adult. I've seen a sort of rule of thumb for puppies which is that
they can 'hold it' for their age in months plus one hour, or something
like that, and can 'hold it' longer overnight.

Crossing fingers but she seems to have adapted as of day 3. I don't think
any here mind if i asked early for help for a problem that may have solved
itself.

Elderly dogs get dementia and confusion just like elderly people.
Being moved around can be confusing for oldsters, and confused dogs
might forget their housebreaking. I should probably ask for advice
more than I do, because I tend to over-focus on one aspect of a
problem and thereby miss some fairly obvious potential solutions.

On Tue, 23 Nov 2010 21:00:02 -0500, "cshenk" wrote:


Crossing fingers but she seems to have adapted as of day 3. I don't think
any here mind if i asked early for help for a problem that may have solved
itself.

I meant to add that I hope things continue to go smoothly. Old dogs
can be really difficult to place, even though they are usually quite
easy-going and undemanding.