"buglady" wrote
"Char" wrote

I don't understand the grinding though. My cat eats a wide variety of raw
just as it is, bones and all.

...........Good for you! The only raw with bones my cats would eat
without grinding were mice.
.........As always, YMMV. Life just ain't black and white. What goes on
in your house may not be feasible elsewhere.

Yup, thats what I am finding out from my local yahoo community group. Local
attitude is 'do what you can' and no one is abusing another if they don't
have the time to go full raw.

I've been asked in email by one if I am willing to grind some RMB chicken
for them for a cat. Told them if they will bring me snack sized baggies
(zip-lock type) and small or chopped to size for my grinder parts, I'd
happily do a batch every 2 weeks. She can even help baggie it. Wouldn't
take us but about 45 mins and save her the cost of the machine.

Others who can't or do not want to go raw, are asking and learning on how to
go grain-free with commercial items for cats and dogs or at least how to
upscale from cheap kibble to a better brand and that 'price' isn't an
indicator but how to read the labels. (Blue Wilderness here is cheaper than
IAMS).

Oh, and after it was mentioned here, we found Felidae? I'd not seen it but
another says they have.

On Sun, 2 Jan 2011 13:42:46 -0500, "cshenk" wrote:

"buglady" wrote
"Char" wrote

I don't understand the grinding though. My cat eats a wide variety of raw
just as it is, bones and all.

...........Good for you! The only raw with bones my cats would eat
without grinding were mice.
.........As always, YMMV. Life just ain't black and white. What goes on
in your house may not be feasible elsewhere.

Yup, thats what I am finding out from my local yahoo community group. Local
attitude is 'do what you can' and no one is abusing another if they don't
have the time to go full raw.

How refreshing. I don't know if people rip into each other for
different opinions on the raw groups I'm on, but not only do they
advocate all raw feeding, it has to be whole prey model. Of course no
vaccinations for humans or animals, no chemicals or pesticides, etc.
I would never ask a question on either group - although I do feed an
all raw diet, I feed one vegetable meal a week (gasp) and I do not
feed whole carcasses. It takes me a lot more time to feed raw and
costs more than the high quality kibble the dogs were on before, but I
don't mind because I firmly believe it's better for them. However, I
have limits. I can't feed my dogs outside because a) I can't feed
them in a pack and b) we have real winters here, and my short-haired
dogs wouldn't tolerate that. I do the best I can, but with a lot of
these folks that's not enough - it has to be 100% the way they think
is best. I don't happen to agree that it is best, and even if it is,
that doesn't mean that other feeding methods aren't good and healthy.
Raw feeding isn't a philosophy for some of these people, it's a
religion, and I've already got one of those.

I've been asked in email by one if I am willing to grind some RMB chicken
for them for a cat. Told them if they will bring me snack sized baggies
(zip-lock type) and small or chopped to size for my grinder parts, I'd
happily do a batch every 2 weeks. She can even help baggie it. Wouldn't
take us but about 45 mins and save her the cost of the machine.

We do that for some friends who feed mostly ground to their dogs.
There's no reason for them to feed ground, and I don't necessarily
agree with them, but that's what they want to do. She pays for a case
of chicken backs for us every once in a while in return, which she
certainly doesn't have to do - we have to grind anyway, for our
toothless girls. Last Thursday DH and I spent several hours in the
car buying meat at 3 places and then several hours in the basement,
dividing it up into meals or smaller portions and freezing. 240
pounds of chicken backs, 80 pounds of boneless turkey, and 80 pounds
of ground chicken/beef/organs that my toothless girls can eat. By the
next morning I didn't care if I ever saw raw meat again. I'm still
hoping for some deer meat, but don't know if that will happen.

Others who can't or do not want to go raw, are asking and learning on how to
go grain-free with commercial items for cats and dogs or at least how to
upscale from cheap kibble to a better brand and that 'price' isn't an
indicator but how to read the labels. (Blue Wilderness here is cheaper than
IAMS).

I found BW - didn't know it's made by Blue Buffalo. The Petsmart,
Petco and Pet Supplies Plus stores all have it, but those stores are
all half an hour away. A feed store in the area is supposed to have
it, though. But if miss finicky won't eat the grainless formula of
the kibble she loves, I don't have a lot of hope that she'll eat a
different brand.

Oh, and after it was mentioned here, we found Felidae? I'd not seen it but
another says they have.

Canidae and Felidae are great supporters of their small retailers.
You can find a list of stores and other retailers that carry their
foods on their website:
http://www.canidae.com/dogs/all_life_stages/dry.html. As I've said,
it may not be the best commercial food available, but it's a very high
quality food and the company owners are ethical people who care about
quality. They have several grain-free formulas in dry and canned for
both cats and dogs. Our rescue group keeps the prices affordable -
much less than Pet Supplies Plus - so that people in our community can
afford to feed their animals a quality food.

"sighthounds & siberians" wrote
"cshenk" wrote:

.........As always, YMMV. Life just ain't black and white. What goes
on
in your house may not be feasible elsewhere.

Yup, thats what I am finding out from my local yahoo community group.
Local
attitude is 'do what you can' and no one is abusing another if they don't
have the time to go full raw.

How refreshing.

It is refreshing! Some are even struggling foster pet sites folks and they
are trying to upgrade but handling up to 7 dogs and can't really afford full
RMB for all of them.

I don't know if people rip into each other for
different opinions on the raw groups I'm on, but not only do they
advocate all raw feeding, it has to be whole prey model. Of course no
vaccinations for humans or animals, no chemicals or pesticides, etc.

Yes, for some it is almost a religion but I'm not seeing that locally.

I would never ask a question on either group - although I do feed an
all raw diet, I feed one vegetable meal a week (gasp) and I do not
feed whole carcasses. It takes me a lot more time to feed raw and
costs more than the high quality kibble the dogs were on before, but I
don't mind because I firmly believe it's better for them. However, I
have limits.

Same with many here. They can't always manage it if they have many of them
to feed. It also took some time for most of us to find a proper source for
cheap meats.

I can't feed my dogs outside because a) I can't feed
them in a pack and b) we have real winters here, and my short-haired
dogs wouldn't tolerate that. I do the best I can, but with a lot of
these folks that's not enough - it has to be 100% the way they think
is best. I don't happen to agree that it is best, and even if it is,
that doesn't mean that other feeding methods aren't good and healthy.
Raw feeding isn't a philosophy for some of these people, it's a
religion, and I've already got one of those.

hehehehe! No one here feeds outside. Is that some sort of ethic sme have
as part of the religion?

I've been asked in email by one if I am willing to grind some RMB chicken
for them for a cat. Told them if they will bring me snack sized baggies
(zip-lock type) and small or chopped to size for my grinder parts, I'd
happily do a batch every 2 weeks. She can even help baggie it. Wouldn't
take us but about 45 mins and save her the cost of the machine.

We do that for some friends who feed mostly ground to their dogs.
There's no reason for them to feed ground, and I don't necessarily
agree with them, but that's what they want to do. She pays for a case
of chicken backs for us every once in a while in return, which she
certainly doesn't have to do - we have to grind anyway, for our
toothless girls.

There's times when it is needed. Teacups and such and gulpers like my Cash.
Mabel Anne's teeth may be an issue as well. Sammy's jaws were not strong
and he'd tire out on too many chicken wings before he got enough food.
Mabel's jaw structure is not far off his and she has the bad teeth he didnt
have.

Last Thursday DH and I spent several hours in the
car buying meat at 3 places and then several hours in the basement,
dividing it up into meals or smaller portions and freezing. 240
pounds of chicken backs, 80 pounds of boneless turkey, and 80 pounds
of ground chicken/beef/organs that my toothless girls can eat. By the
next morning I didn't care if I ever saw raw meat again. I'm still
hoping for some deer meat, but don't know if that will happen.

LOL! Decent load there. I'm starting smaller, with 80 lbs or so. Maybe
another 20 in variations of organ meats.

Others who can't or do not want to go raw, are asking and learning on how
to
go grain-free with commercial items for cats and dogs or at least how to
upscale from cheap kibble to a better brand and that 'price' isn't an
indicator but how to read the labels. (Blue Wilderness here is cheaper
than
IAMS).

I found BW - didn't know it's made by Blue Buffalo. The Petsmart,
Petco and Pet Supplies Plus stores all have it, but those stores are
all half an hour away. A feed store in the area is supposed to have
it, though. But if miss finicky won't eat the grainless formula of
the kibble she loves, I don't have a lot of hope that she'll eat a
different brand.

Yup, same maker. Just a version of it. Maybe you can get a sample? That
would be best. Meantime, Dasiy-chan is in heaven as we are out of wet cat
food so she's getting BW cat version for the day. (Snow, ran out, gave last
of the treats on NYE for them).

Not all versions are 'grain free' but the BW is. The rest are pretty decent.

Oh, and after it was mentioned here, we found Felidae? I'd not seen it
but
another says they have.

Canidae and Felidae are great supporters of their small retailers.
You can find a list of stores and other retailers that carry their
foods on their website:
http://www.canidae.com/dogs/all_life_stages/dry.html. As I've said,
it may not be the best commercial food available, but it's a very high
quality food and the company owners are ethical people who care about
quality. They have several grain-free formulas in dry and canned for
both cats and dogs. Our rescue group keeps the prices affordable -
much less than Pet Supplies Plus - so that people in our community can
afford to feed their animals a quality food.

Cool! I see the local folks checking into this as well as one rescue group
foster lady says it's there for their members. Sounds like a good group.

Later, more as i see more messages come in.

On Jan 2, 3:20*pm, "cshenk" wrote:
"sighthounds & siberians" wrote

It is refreshing! * Some are even struggling foster pet sites folks and they
are trying to upgrade but handling up to 7 dogs and can't really afford full
RMB for all of them.

I'm feeding a raw diet to my own 8 dogs plus one foster at present and
it is a challenge to find affordable meat.

hehehehe! *No one here feeds outside. *Is that some sort of ethic sme have
as part of the religion?

I think it's just that feeding raw, particularly if you're giving your
dogs whole carcasses or large pieces thereof, is easier from a cleanup
standpoint if done outside.

There's times when it is needed. *Teacups and such and gulpers like my Cash.

Mabel Anne's teeth may be an issue as well. *Sammy's jaws were not strong
and he'd tire out on too many chicken wings before he got enough food.
Mabel's jaw structure is not far off his and she has the bad teeth he didnt
have.

There isn't much meat on wings; a Beagle-sized dog would probably do
better on backs. Backs are also easy to grind and you should be able
to find them in bulk (40 lb cases) as many people buy them to make
soup.

LOL! *Decent load there. *I'm starting smaller, with 80 lbs or so. Maybe
another 20 in variations of organ meats.

This is hopefully about 6 weeks worth, although I still have to get
organ meat. I'm tired of dividing up and packaging cases of chicken
backs every 2 weeks.

Cool! I see the local folks checking into this as well as one rescue group
foster lady says it's there for their members. *Sounds like a good group.

We provided it to our foster homes too. Many, though not all, groups
will provide food for their foster dogs, though it's always
appreciated when the foster homes provide it themselves as it saves
the group a lot of money.

The majority of our students and one staff member who have fed raw have
stopped making up their own food simply because of the time
requirements. Currently, we're down to two advanced students doing raw
feeding, each with two Rotties. They are buying commercial raw food
that's shipped to one of them. Both of them have one dog each that has
food allergy issues.... and have found no locally available commercial
food (raw or not) that meets the needs. The staff member who fed raw
has a GSD breeding/performance event kennel, and the cost pushed her
back to kibble, but a Much better formula than she had been using
pre-raw.

Jo Wolf
Martinez, Georgia

"sighthounds & siberians" wrote
"cshenk" wrote:

It is refreshing! Some are even struggling foster pet sites folks and
they
are trying to upgrade but handling up to 7 dogs and can't really afford
full
RMB for all of them.

I'm feeding a raw diet to my own 8 dogs plus one foster at present and
it is a challenge to find affordable meat.

Yup! Storage too. Many here who were interested didn't have the storage to
freeze bulk. One lives quite near me (walking distance) so I told her I can
store for her if she'll share making the trips (60miles round) to the
cheapest source. Chuckle, I told her i can make the other trip for the
organ meats because it's a place I go to often, which saves her that side of
the trip.

hehehehe! No one here feeds outside. Is that some sort of ethic some have
as part of the religion?

I think it's just that feeding raw, particularly if you're giving your
dogs whole carcasses or large pieces thereof, is easier from a cleanup
standpoint if done outside.

Ah, makes sense there. I've used the bathroom and the kichen. (I semi-raw
feed if you recall though it's cans tonight again because we just got back
from the vet. Another thread in a sec on that).

There's times when it is needed. Teacups and such and gulpers like my
Cash.

Mabel Anne's teeth may be an issue as well. Sammy's jaws were not strong
and he'd tire out on too many chicken wings before he got enough food.
Mabel's jaw structure is not far off his and she has the bad teeth he
didnt
have.

(Confirmed by vet tonight. Use a grinder with her. Even gave specific
advice to give her lots of ground raw joints. I love my vet!)


There isn't much meat on wings; a Beagle-sized dog would probably do
better on backs. Backs are also easy to grind and you should be able
to find them in bulk (40 lb cases) as many people buy them to make
soup.

Exactly what we found. Necks or backs, 40 lbs. 19.99. Maybe cheaper
elsewhere but we can make a go with that.

LOL! Decent load there. I'm starting smaller, with 80 lbs or so. Maybe
another 20 in variations of organ meats.

This is hopefully about 6 weeks worth, although I still have to get
organ meat. I'm tired of dividing up and packaging cases of chicken
backs every 2 weeks.

Thats a load for the neighbor's lab, my Cash, and Mabel Anne. Lab is about
75 lbs, Cash slipped up to 58 (I know, he's fat again), and Mabel Anne is
24.5 lbs as of today. Vet says she could stand to gain another 2 lbs (she's
tiny to us compared to Cash but larger and longer legged than a pure bred
beagle).

Cool! I see the local folks checking into this as well as one rescue
group
foster lady says it's there for their members. Sounds like a good group.

We provided it to our foster homes too. Many, though not all, groups
will provide food for their foster dogs, though it's always
appreciated when the foster homes provide it themselves as it saves
the group a lot of money.

I gather it is a mix and match here, mostly they offer food but some upscale
and feed on their own.

"Jo Wolf" wrote

The majority of our students and one staff member who have fed raw have
stopped making up their own food simply because of the time
requirements. Currently, we're down to two advanced students doing raw
feeding, each with two Rotties. They are buying commercial raw food
that's shipped to one of them. Both of them have one dog each that has
food allergy issues.... and have found no locally available commercial
food (raw or not) that meets the needs. The staff member who fed raw
has a GSD breeding/performance event kennel, and the cost pushed her
back to kibble, but a Much better formula than she had been using
pre-raw.

Smile, thats the issues here too. Collectively though some of us are
banding together a bit for a trial. Like, I have freezer space for the lady
just down the street for her lab and she's going to help make every other of
the longer trips to the market with the least expensive (but still fully
human food quality) RMB resources. Another guy seems to have a big chest
freezer but is disabled and can't lift but offered up space for bulk and
pickups at any time.

The folks who have been doing this locally, passed on all the locations they
use and got added ones of use such as where I get pig/beef/chicken organ
meats.

On Mon, 3 Jan 2011 20:02:29 -0500, "cshenk" wrote:

"Jo Wolf" wrote

The majority of our students and one staff member who have fed raw have
stopped making up their own food simply because of the time
requirements. Currently, we're down to two advanced students doing raw
feeding, each with two Rotties. They are buying commercial raw food
that's shipped to one of them. Both of them have one dog each that has
food allergy issues.... and have found no locally available commercial
food (raw or not) that meets the needs. The staff member who fed raw
has a GSD breeding/performance event kennel, and the cost pushed her
back to kibble, but a Much better formula than she had been using
pre-raw.

Smile, thats the issues here too. Collectively though some of us are
banding together a bit for a trial.

That's the best way to go. The commercial raw food can be really
expensive. Blue Ridge Beef is pretty reasonably priced, but still too
high when you're feeding multiple dogs. I buy BRB organ meats and
tripe for convenience. There has also been at least one recall of a
commercial raw diet. There's no question that putting together your
own raw diet (and the actual feeding) takes a lot of time (unless you
do that whole prey thing and just throw your dogs a goat every couple
of days...) but I think it's worth it.

I don't see either of these gals doing the "throw a goat" thing.
{Chuckle} One of them is tall, and strong enough..... the other is a
dainty little thing. Their neighbors might complain..... A third, plus
the dainty one, both use tripe as training jackpot rewards. Thank
GOODNESS our training center is outdoors on a covered deck, not inside.
The smell makes my toes curl....

One of our Border Terrier and IW gals up near Charlotte, NC, met me on a
transport because the route took her right by the place she got her
frozen raw tripe...... She had about 6-8 large boxes in the back of her
SUV. {shudder} When you have 3 IWs and 2-3 Border Terriers, you can go
through a lot of anything pretty fast....

Now and then I buy a big package of chicken drumettes, and the crew each
get one a day until gone. I pull the bedding out of crates.... and when
they're done, spray them off with disinfectant and wipe down, restore
bedding.... Otherwise, it'd be one at a time in the backyard.... or
there might be bloodshed if someone finished first and wanted more. The
Borders are sort of Beagle size. Jaws of steel.... and they pulverize
those chicken wing bones. Turkey necks were a favorite raw dog treat of
a couple in our club who had Briards.... but they fed dry.

We have an area breeder who gets Blackwood dry by the pallet about every
2-3 weeks and delivers dog and cat food to staff and students at the
training center. Not good enough.... I used to get my Taste of the
Wild from a GSD breeder until Tractor Supply Company started carrying
it, and we both switched.... a bit more $$$$, but the convenience made
up for it. I don't like to buy more than a month's supply at a time.
If I fed raw, I'd need to add a chest freezer, and a grinder. No Way.
Or go to the Earthfare Supermarket a couple of times a week for a brand
I'm not thrilled about.

I rotate 2 of the TotW formulas with Wellness Core, Blue Wilderness, and
Solid Gold Over the Moon, which gets us through the year, using each for
a bit over two months, or I may throw in two months of EVO. I don't
supplement with anything but Cosequin for the old guy, but I do add
veggies and fruit a few times a week, as an extra meal or hefty treat.
Since I started this type of grain free rotation, teeth are cleaner,
skin is healthier, and coats are fantastic. The 15 yo runs the fence
line with the young dogs..... and is off thyroid. Well..... a new
foster, if in rough condition, will get some probiotics/enzymes and a
kelp mixture for 4-6 weeks... longer if still here.

Jo Wolf
Martinez, Georgia

"Jo Wolf" wrote

Hi Jo!

Now and then I buy a big package of chicken drumettes, and the crew each
get one a day until gone. I pull the bedding out of crates.... and when
they're done, spray them off with disinfectant and wipe down, restore
bedding.... Otherwise, it'd be one at a time in the backyard.... or
there might be bloodshed if someone finished first and wanted more.

LOL! Beagles are like that and not that much politer though I've not seen
bloodshed yet.

I rotate 2 of the TotW formulas with Wellness Core, Blue Wilderness, and
Solid Gold Over the Moon, which gets us through the year, using each for
a bit over two months, or I may throw in two months of EVO. I don't
supplement with anything but Cosequin for the old guy, but I do add
veggies and fruit a few times a week, as an extra meal or hefty treat.
Since I started this type of grain free rotation, teeth are cleaner,
skin is healthier, and coats are fantastic. The 15 yo runs the fence
line with the young dogs..... and is off thyroid. Well..... a new
foster, if in rough condition, will get some probiotics/enzymes and a
kelp mixture for 4-6 weeks... longer if still here.

Hey, works for me!