"sighthounds & siberians" wrote
"cshenk" wrote:

I'm really confused. Treatment for Lyme is antibiotics. What shots
are you talking about?

She's getting something that sounded from I gathered was treatment. I
have
not googled it yet to know more. I planned to later tonight but have not
yet. If it's antibiotics, then that is what she got.

Not if she got a shot. The treatment for Lyme is doxycycline. It is
not given via a shot with a 'booster' later. That is not the way any
antibiotics are given.

She's also got pills to take just now (antibiotics for sure) and 4 ear meds
given in series twice a day for just now. Most are simple washes. She
tolerates them well and with the cottonball then gentle rub, starts grinning
as if she likes them.

Exactly what test did they do that shows that a dog has metastatic
cancer?

Drop the word 'metastatic'. It's just a test that is an indicator of
cancer.

$1,500??? For a dental and how many extractions?

3 back teeth.

Well, that's just an absolutely outrageous price. It's great that you
trust these vets, but I think you're being taken.

They are not cheap, but they are good. Most won't touch a 14 year old beagle
in my area with a need to pull 3 back teeth unless they are a hack shop and
want a waiver to pay for it all even if they die before the first tooth is
pulled. It's good though you can get decent treatment cheaper.

if you had a dog 3 years estimated past the normal geriatric for
the type with (still waiting to hear for sure) an estimated few months
left,
would you pull 3 teeth if they were causing them no pain? Would you not
look at it as just destruction of what fun they have left before they need
that final needle of blessing as the pain sets in?

I'm still not Jo. What I would do in a situation like Mabel's would
depend on my assessment of the dog. It's not possible for a human to
say that a dog is not in pain in most situations, because dogs hide
pain and can be incredibly stoic. Most times, when dogs have teeth
that are inflamed or infected, the teeth are causing pain, just like
yours would under those circumstances, even if the dog isn't showing
pain symptoms.

Well, I'm going with the vet. Cheap this set isnt, but good they are. The
teeth are not inflamed and one just shows signs it may abcess. It isnt now.

Mabel wil have her test results in a few more days which may result in more
tests needed. Meantime, she gets a regular dental cleaning in early Feb and
if indications are right for her health and quality of life, at least one
extraction of the 3 possible. I am waiting for results to come in and
discuss with my vet, what is best for her.

{Grin} And I wasn't the one who raised those questions!!!

I'm an RN.... nearly 35 years of experience before I left the hospital
world.... by the way, and have managed to learn a lot of "crossover" in
the process of being a dog owner.....

The vet knows much more about what he/she is doing than anyone in this
group, including me. Period. Ask the vet. Listen to the vet. Ask
more if needed. Get a second opinion from a VET if indicated. The vets
passed vet school and passed the state licensure exams; no one here has
done that. In Mabel Anns' very complex situation, I'd take a pocket
notebook along and take notes, just so I could keep things straight....
and make good observations to report to the vet as things progress.

Dispensation from rabies shots Usually requires that the dog show Clear
signs of allergic response to the vaccine. And not just a tender area
where the shot was given. I'm talkin' frank anaphyllactic reaction....
shock, the whole shebang. In Georgia, (and when I lived in Oklahoma and
Texas) that means "seen by a vet" to have those signs. States aren't
into touchy-feely; they're into public health law. FYI, there have been
over 200 cases of rabies, mainly in raccoons, in NYC's Central Park in
2010, and now the disease has appeared in two Brooklyn parks. Not
exactly some rural road in the Smokey Mountains or Pot Hole, Alaska.
Think about the thousands of dogs that could potentially be exposed in
Central Park alone..... and how many hundreds of thousands humans.
Here, in the second largest metro area in Georgia, we've had rabid coons
get into homes and attack the dogs indoors.... none this year,
fortunately.

I'd be rather conservative about dental work (or anything else requiring
anesthesia) until you are certain about cancer, and about cardiac
status, but that's just me. It is quite possible that Mabel Anne's worn
old body will make some of the decisions all on it's own.... These dogs
that have apparently survived on the streets for a time, or been grossly
neglected and ill-fed, can be remarkably Tough. Or they can be putting
up a good front, and suddenly go into a sharp decline, or just not wake
up one morning.... as if our good care and love have given them
"permission" to let go of life, finally.

I had a bitch spayed Monday that, even 4-5 years ago, I would have asked
the vet to write a letter of extention for the state, to delay surgery
another 2-4 weeks while I put a bit more weight and generally brought
her nutritional status up some more. She sailed through it, and would
have gone racing across the yard this morning, if I hadn't had her on
lead. All of the weight I've put on her in the last month has been
muscle; no fat reserve. We had an otherwise "healthy" 10 yo male foster
that the shelter thought had kennel cough.... it was pneumonia, a
private vet thought, and the foster was even taught how to do chest
percussion to get the sputum up out of the lungs, like we use in
humans.... plus antibiotics.... 10 days after we got him, he crashed one
morning and died as the foster pulled into the clinic parking lot. The
foster donated the necropsy, because she was curious; his chest and
abdomen were "full" of a lymphoma that wouldn't show up up x-ray. Since
the dog had been neutered before arriving at the shelter, they'd done a
dental on him.... just a cleaning. Two years ago, we got two old dogs
from the husband of a deceased breeder.... badly neglected due to her
Alzheimer's. At 13, the male had Major dental work, with Multiple
extractions, lots of infection present..... the 12 yo bitch lost 2-3
teeth. Both are still hale and hearty, living with one of our "old
folks home" volunteers.

Yes. there are blood tests that spot a Probability of some cancers (not
addressing the one for human males to spot prostate cancers) or how
active some cancers are during treatment. There is a better test, not
yet commercially available, that was announced just Monday, that spots
Very low presence of cancer cells.

The rectal exam probably yielded some mucosal tissue smears.... which
will probably be read by a vet pathologist at the lab the clinic uses.
This is a non-surgical form of biopsy, akin to using skin scrapings to
diagnose mange.... or even closer to the cervical test for cancer in
human females.

My personal choice would be not to treat a cancer in a dog this age....
and to euthanize at the first signs of suffering. To show enough
caring to release the dog from this world without expecting it to
suffer something it doesn't understand, just for my benefit of some
sort. Getting rid of infection with a dental? Probably not if cancer
was known.... but if it wasn't present? That dental could mean several
more reletively healthy years. Could be worth the risks.... The vet
can give a very educated evaluation of the risks. That dental that
our dog that died had had probably was not a factor in his "kennel
cough" or "pneumonia". It was the cancer that killed him.

As I live longer with dogs, I find that I make the decision for release
earlier and earlier as I learn to read the old dogs better and better.
I learned this when I watched a woman I originally had respected
handfeed pureed food to an old dog for nearly 18 months, just to keep
her alive. The dog had to be carried outside and held up to eliminate,
then was kept in diapers. I resolved then Never to do that to a dog I
was responsible for. For my guys, appetite has been a darn good
indicator.... but far from the only one. It's that collection of things
that make up "quality of life" for each one.

Jo Wolf
Martinez, Georgia

"Jo Wolf" wrote

{Grin} And I wasn't the one who raised those questions!!!

I'm an RN.... nearly 35 years of experience before I left the hospital
world.... by the way, and have managed to learn a lot of "crossover" in
the process of being a dog owner.....

I wanted to be a nurse after working as a nurses aide, but couldn't fund the
college amounts (I was already 3 years into a teaching degree when I found
out I would have been very happy as a nurse). Now my back is too bad to
handle the job. Ah well, I've had fun in life traveling the world and the
current job is lots of fun!

The vet knows much more about what he/she is doing than anyone in this
group, including me. Period. Ask the vet. Listen to the vet. Ask
more if needed. Get a second opinion from a VET if indicated. The vets
passed vet school and passed the state licensure exams; no one here has
done that. In Mabel Anns' very complex situation, I'd take a pocket
notebook along and take notes, just so I could keep things straight....
and make good observations to report to the vet as things progress.

I should have kept better notes on the meds (grin). I checked the
paperwork. The antibiotics must be for the lyme and the ear infection both.
1 pill a day with food. The 2 shots would have been 2 vaccines she needed
(no proof she'd ever had them).

Dispensation from rabies shots Usually requires that the dog show Clear
signs of allergic response to the vaccine. And not just a tender area
where the shot was given. I'm talkin' frank anaphyllactic reaction....
shock, the whole shebang. In Georgia, (and when I lived in Oklahoma and
Texas) that means "seen by a vet" to have those signs. States aren't
into touchy-feely; they're into public health law. FYI, there have been
over 200 cases of rabies, mainly in raccoons, in NYC's Central Park in
2010, and now the disease has appeared in two Brooklyn parks. Not

Yup. They are serious about it here too. We have annual problems with a
thing called 'squirrel rabies' (it's not actual rabies, something else but
they act rabid) and racoons as well right in the city. No human cases that
I know of and I think no pet cases either (have not heard of any) but it's
in the area. She had no issues with her first trackable rabies shot
(Aug2010) so by Virgnia law must have another next year then she can go on a
3 year cycle. If we don't have her shot done again, no vet in the area will
see her.

Think about the thousands of dogs that could potentially be exposed in
Central Park alone..... and how many hundreds of thousands humans.
Here, in the second largest metro area in Georgia, we've had rabid coons
get into homes and attack the dogs indoors.... none this year,
fortunately.

We've had issues with squirrels and racoons using cat/doggie doors to enter
houses. Oh, and a Hawk flew into one of the local grocery stores yesterday
and they had to close up for a couple of hours until they could chase it out
;-)


I'd be rather conservative about dental work (or anything else requiring
anesthesia) until you are certain about cancer, and about cardiac
status, but that's just me.

Thats me too. Thats why the dental is set for after the tests come back.
There may be follow-on tests based on that one's results (biopsy or
something) but we are to wait and see for now. *If they have to put her
under for some sort of biopsy, they will do the dental at same time but
that's just based on prior knowledge of how they work there from other pets.
For now they said just to wait for results and then they will fill me in
with what options we have based on them.

It is quite possible that Mabel Anne's worn
old body will make some of the decisions all on it's own.... These dogs
that have apparently survived on the streets for a time, or been grossly
neglected and ill-fed, can be remarkably Tough. Or they can be putting
up a good front, and suddenly go into a sharp decline, or just not wake
up one morning.... as if our good care and love have given them
"permission" to let go of life, finally.

Yup. We never expected her to have this many problems *but* it is not that
suprising and we are calm about it now. If the tests come back negative for
cancer, she'll probably just not awaken one morning sometime in the next
year or two (which we expected).

I had a bitch spayed Monday that, even 4-5 years ago, I would have asked
the vet to write a letter of extention for the state, to delay surgery
another 2-4 weeks while I put a bit more weight and generally brought
her nutritional status up some more. She sailed through it, and would
have gone racing across the yard this morning, if I hadn't had her on
lead. All of the weight I've put on her in the last month has been
muscle; no fat reserve. We had an otherwise "healthy" 10 yo male foster
that the shelter thought had kennel cough.... it was pneumonia, a
private vet thought, and the foster was even taught how to do chest
percussion to get the sputum up out of the lungs, like we use in
humans.... plus antibiotics.... 10 days after we got him, he crashed one
morning and died as the foster pulled into the clinic parking lot. The
foster donated the necropsy, because she was curious; his chest and
abdomen were "full" of a lymphoma that wouldn't show up up x-ray. Since
the dog had been neutered before arriving at the shelter, they'd done a
dental on him.... just a cleaning. Two years ago, we got two old dogs
from the husband of a deceased breeder.... badly neglected due to her
Alzheimer's. At 13, the male had Major dental work, with Multiple
extractions, lots of infection present..... the 12 yo bitch lost 2-3
teeth. Both are still hale and hearty, living with one of our "old
folks home" volunteers.

Grin, I'm with ya. I can tell lots of stories too but in my case, Cash and
Mabel (and Sammy) are the only dogs. I've been fostering cats though since
1978. Same 'type' of experiences. I was the one the organizations contacted
for older cats to foster them. I actually had a good bit of success overall
with finding them placements if they hadn't lost their litterbox habits
through dementia.

Yes. there are blood tests that spot a Probability of some cancers (not
addressing the one for human males to spot prostate cancers) or how
active some cancers are during treatment. There is a better test, not
yet commercially available, that was announced just Monday, that spots
Very low presence of cancer cells.

Thats probably the same one they used (blood test that gives indicators).
Might hear Friday but they said more likely Monday (call back firmed the
date based on pickup of sample).

The rectal exam probably yielded some mucosal tissue smears.... which
will probably be read by a vet pathologist at the lab the clinic uses.
This is a non-surgical form of biopsy, akin to using skin scrapings to
diagnose mange.... or even closer to the cervical test for cancer in
human females.

That's the other one they did. Might hear Friday but they said more likely
Monday (call back firmed the date based on pickup of sample). They sent a
blood sample with it as a crosscheck (possibly another test type than the
minimal one they can do on site).

My personal choice would be not to treat a cancer in a dog this age....
and to euthanize at the first signs of suffering. To show enough
caring to release the dog from this world without expecting it to
suffer something it doesn't understand, just for my benefit of some
sort. Getting rid of infection with a dental? Probably not if cancer
was known.... but if it wasn't present? That dental could mean several
more reletively healthy years. Could be worth the risks.... The vet
can give a very educated evaluation of the risks. That dental that
our dog that died had had probably was not a factor in his "kennel
cough" or "pneumonia". It was the cancer that killed him.

Same here. She has no apparent suffering right now. Even her teeth seem to
cause no pain. The only reason for the dental (pending the other results)
is to prevent pain and the extractions depend on that as well. No one
really knows her age so it's possible she really may have several years if
there is no cancer and her teeth are fixed up. Current vet says she thinks
14yo, but others say 12 max and might only be 7yo. Pretty wide range but we
got oddball ones on Cash too because of his size. It was only obvious when
he had teething behavior then final teeth came in.

As I live longer with dogs, I find that I make the decision for release
earlier and earlier as I learn to read the old dogs better and better.
I learned this when I watched a woman I originally had respected
handfeed pureed food to an old dog for nearly 18 months, just to keep
her alive. The dog had to be carried outside and held up to eliminate,
then was kept in diapers. I resolved then Never to do that to a dog I
was responsible for. For my guys, appetite has been a darn good
indicator.... but far from the only one. It's that collection of things
that make up "quality of life" for each one.

Same here. I'm not as expert with reading dogs for this, but my husband has
a good skill set having had them all his life. I can tell with cats pretty
good now. I'm pretty sure if Mabel Anne 'stops having fun' we will see it
quickly. We saw it with Sammy who just faded over a 2 week period but he
was in no pain and we took care of him at home until it was his time.

I told my Mom about Mabel and she told me of her Uncle who had a dog named
Tippy. He was treated like above. Carried out then set under a phone table
on a wood floor. The phone would cause Tippy total panic Mom said. They
didnt have doggies diapers in the 1930's but Mom said they had a bunch of
blankets down there they'd change 2-3 times a day.

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is illegal in any form.



"leodown" wrote in message
...

The holiday feeling is all around us. The malls are all decorated with

Most excellent post buglady!


On 1/5/2011 7:25 AM, buglady wrote:
wrote in message
news
She failed the lyme disease test. The vet says with no way to know if
she's been treated, best to treat again. I agree.

,,,,,,,,,I'd check Tick list for specific info on this issue. I don't
know if they've decided yet about treating a positive titer with no
symptoms. Also I think it depends on what test they used.:
http://apple.ease.lsoft.com/scripts/....exe?A0=TICK-L

Regardless, we had it done.

................If what the vet did was vaccinate with Lyme vax, DON'T DO
IT AGAIN! I have to believe you're talking about a vaccine, for if you were
actually TREATING the disease it would be with dozy, and your dog would be
getting it every day.

She gets a
booster in 3 weeks.

,,,,,,,,,,,of what? This isn't a time to vx this dog, She probably
wouldn't respond anyway,

No, thats how this vaccine works.

..............No it is not! A dog with a trashed immune system cannot
respond fully to a vaccination. That's why it says in Kirk's Vet Therapy to
never vaccinate sick animals. And if the dog actually HAS Lyme disease,
vaccinating is pointless and possibly injurious.

There is no way to know if it was a recent infection (no symptoms yet) or
an older treated one.

....................Your vet is sorely out of date! Please read these pages
below from IDEXX plus this one
http://sites.google.com/site/blackgsd/lymedisease

and print it off for him.
This Snap (3Dx or 4Dx) test ***can*** distinguish between vaccinated dogs
and dogs with Lyme disease antibodies. IF it is postive the next step is to
do the C6 Quantitative test to determine if the infection is current.

http://www.idexx.com/view/xhtml/en_u...e/snap/4dx.jsf
"The SNAP 4Dx Test identifies an antibody that is produced ***only as a
result of a B. burgdorferi infection ***(unlike IFA, which isn't specific
for B. burgdorferi infection). The difference is the unique, revolutionary
C6 ELISA technology.

C6 identifies infection
The SNAP 4Dx Test is based on the detection of antibody to a highly
specific, conserved, immunodominant region of VIsE, a surface antigen,
called C6. Antibody concentrations are believed to have a high correlation
to the presence of viable spirochetes.2"

Also for info on C6Quant test:

http://tinyurl.com/33m33r2

If the dog is positive on the C6 go back to the blackgsd pages above and
read about antibiotics. The dose is 2X as high as most vets use. This info
comes from VETS at the Tick-L. You can also read this:

http://www.caberfeidh.com/Lyme.htm

buglady Take out the dog before replying