On Sun, 30 Jan 2011 15:28:03 -0500, "P E Schoen"
wrote:

Formal obedience training is on my list just after root canals, but I have
molded Muttley's overall behavior so that many people have commented on how
well-behaved he is and how much he has improved since I got him five years
ago. If you watch my videos you can see some aspects of his training, and I
have been working on more general (and useful) "tricks".

He's still not trustworthy around other dogs (and don't bother arguing
on that one - a dog that goes after a puppy that wasn't interacting
with him is not trustworthy around other dogs. Most of that is your
fault, because you don't know how to read him, you insist on taking
him places he apparently doesn't enjoy going which probably causes him
stress, and then you don't watch him closely. To you, this may seem
like one small problem since you think he's so good in other areas.
To anyone with any sense, and to people who go to dog parks and events
in your geographical area, it's a huge problem.

Yesterday he got into a small bag of recyclables and he scattered some cans
and plastic items on the floor. So I grabbed a new bag and told him to pick
up the items and give them to me. This has been an extension of his bringing
me an old marrow bone to trade for a fresh one or a biscuit. I pointed to
various items and asked him to pick them up and place them in my hand, and I
have been using a hand signal which consists of a finger point to the item
followed by an upturned palm.

But this didn't teach him to stay out of the garbage/recyclables, or
manage that particular problem.

"Dogman" wrote in message

Not unless it actually worked to reduce or eliminate the chance of the
behavior from occuring again in the future. If it doesn't, it's not
P+.

You do understand why, right?

I'm not sure I do. If a trainer keeps using P+ and it hasn't altered
the
behaviour he doesn't want, what is it?

Also, if the dog doesnt understand what the trainer wants and the trainer
uses P+, is it still P+ and if not, what is it?

"sighthounds & siberians" wrote in message
...

There have been plenty of incidences on this ng of PP advocates
implying and stating outright that training methods other than PP are
abusive. This was years ago, for the most part, but the memory
lingers on. I don't appreciate being told that people who have never
met my dogs know better than I do how to train them or what they are
feeling or experiencing in certain circumstances - and yes, PPers were
indeed doing this. If that's not your intention, fine. But in an
exchange like this:

Fear and Pain have no place in training. Startling a dog is fine as a
correction, once the dog knows and has been started on proofing
(polishing) a command or exercise.
I
Jo Wolf

Surely startling a dog is using fear?
al

well, it's like a walk down memory lane. Maybe it's just me, and I'm
incredibly over-sensitive.

Perhaps a little, though perhaps I could have put that a bit better. Í
thought we had got over all this but obviously not. I try to watch
what I say but I want to relax enjoy posting here,discuss dog behaviour or
have an OT chat , I don't want to have to watch every word I say or not
want to ask questions in case I get crap.

This is a trip down memory lane for me too.

No, you just want to hang around making passive-aggressive little jabs
like "but surely that causes fear".

BTW I'm not passive- aggressive , I'm British.
My sentence was discussing dog behaviour which you said not long ago was
why you stayed here and not defected to Facebook and you picked that
snippet out of all the many posts I have sent here.
Apart from making you feel better what did you hope to achieve by your
comment? What was the point of it?

On Mon, 31 Jan 2011 18:40:30 -0000, "Alison"
wrote:

"Dogman" wrote in message

Not unless it actually worked to reduce or eliminate the chance of the
behavior from occuring again in the future. If it doesn't, it's not
P+.

You do understand why, right?

I'm not sure I do. If a trainer keeps using P+ and it hasn't altered
the behaviour he doesn't want, what is it?

In the behavioral sense, it's something else. Call it whatever you
want, but it's not P+ unless it actually *succeeds* in lessening the
recurrence of an unwanted behavior.

Also, if the dog doesnt understand what the trainer wants and the trainer
uses P+, is it still P+ and if not, what is it?

It would only be P+ (in the behavioral sense) if it *succeeds* in
reducing the reoccurrence of the unwanted behavior (yes, even if the
dog doesn't understand what the trainer wants). If it didn't
*succeed,* it's something else. Call it whatever you want.

This same principle applies to P-, R-, R+, too.

For example, if you give your dog treats (R+) as a reward for some
desirable behavior, but it doesn't *succeed* in increasing the
reoccurrence of the behavior, it's not R+. It's something else. Call
it whatever you want.

Which is why I always focus on RESULTS. I.e., *success.*

--
Dogman

"P E Schoen" wrote in message
...
Yesterday he got into a small bag of recyclables and he scattered some
cans
and plastic items on the floor. So I grabbed a new bag and told him to pick
up the items and give them to me. This has been an extension of his
bringing
me an old marrow bone to trade for a fresh one or a biscuit. I pointed to
various items and asked him to pick them up and place them in my hand, and
I
have been using a hand signal which consists of a finger point to the item
followed by an upturned palm.

That's useful!
I have to be careful about leaving the recycle bag around as Pip will get
into it.

He gets excited when I ask him to bring items to me, probably in
anticipation of the reward. But this time I had him pick up and bring me
four or five items in succession before going to the freezer and getting a
fresh marrow bone.

If the bone is a reward for picking up the litter, you're giving it too
late.

Even with that, I requested him to lie down and take the
bone gently, which is still a work in progress, because he will often grab
it quickly and then jump up and run with it to his

Perhaps he is grabbing it out of frustration. You are asking three
things here, asking him to pick up the litter, lie down and then take bone
gently. You need to thoroughly practise these seperately and then chain
them together. When you are training , you need to be prepared , have the
treat ready , dont be ponderous or talk between instructions . One Muttley
gets the hang of it , you can be a bit more relaxed but while he is
learning you need to be concise or he will feel frustrated or get confused,
Al


He is not good
with the "drop it" command, but I could take the bone from him without fear
of being bitten.



You can see examples of his behavior and training in these videos:
Muttley Leave It:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAGJQvRLBDs
Muttley_At_CASA (interactions with other dogs):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YjI1RJ3vfY
Muttley Fetch Firewood:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SCfr3xe6Ow
Muttley_Bones_Woodstove:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nisw-p0jkqM
Crazy Bones:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxsLuUG6ae8
Muttley Trades Bone For Biscuit:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkmlEK3Z-yg
Oh No Mo' Snow:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGpjC6J5gXo

Paul and Muttley
www.muttleydog.com

On Mon, 31 Jan 2011 18:40:30 +0000, Alison wrote:

"Dogman" wrote in message

Not unless it actually worked to reduce or eliminate the chance of the
behavior from occuring again in the future. If it doesn't, it's not P+.

You do understand why, right?

I'm not sure I do. If a trainer keeps using P+ and it hasn't
altered
the
behaviour he doesn't want, what is it?

Also, if the dog doesnt understand what the trainer wants and the
trainer
uses P+, is it still P+ and if not, what is it?

it is BS++

On Mon, 31 Jan 2011 20:28:55 +0000 (UTC), andal wrote:

On Mon, 31 Jan 2011 18:40:30 +0000, Alison wrote:

"Dogman" wrote in message

Not unless it actually worked to reduce or eliminate the chance of the
behavior from occuring again in the future. If it doesn't, it's not P+.

You do understand why, right?

I'm not sure I do. If a trainer keeps using P+ and it hasn't
altered
the
behaviour he doesn't want, what is it?

Also, if the dog doesnt understand what the trainer wants and the
trainer
uses P+, is it still P+ and if not, what is it?

it is BS++

Amazing. You don't really understand behaviorism, do you?

Not in English, not in Italian, not in German, not in any language.

Until you're able to admit that to yourself (in whatever language you
do speak), and then set about doing something about it, you'll remain
the laughingstock that you currently are.

--
Dogman

"Alison" wrote in message ...

"P E Schoen" wrote in message
...

Yesterday he got into a small bag of recyclables and he scattered
some cans and plastic items on the floor. So I grabbed a new bag
and told him to pick up the items and give them to me. This has
been an extension of his bringing me an old marrow bone to trade
for a fresh one or a biscuit. I pointed to various items and asked him
to pick them up and place them in my hand, and I have been using
a hand signal which consists of a finger point to the item
followed by an upturned palm.

That's useful!
I have to be careful about leaving the recycle bag around as Pip
will get into it.

Usually Muttley is very good about NOT getting into the recyclables and
garbage, or other food items such as his dog food or treats, which are often
accessible on the floor. Even when he does get something out of the bag, he
is very careful not to tear the bag or make a mess. Sometimes I wonder how
he has been able to extract some item so precisely. But in this case I think
he was hungry, and the bag contained items with high value, such as unrinsed
cans of dog food and chili.

In a way, this is "proofing" him by setting him up with the opportunity of
failure, in which case his good behavior should be (and is) greatly
rewarded. In this case, his unwanted behavior of getting into the bag
certainly did not warrant punishment, although when I heard him making noise
I did issue a mild vocal aversive. But it did not dissuade him until I
actually went down to him.

He gets excited when I ask him to bring items to me, probably in
anticipation of the reward. But this time I had him pick up and
bring me four or five items in succession before going to the
freezer and getting a fresh marrow bone.

If the bone is a reward for picking up the litter, you're giving
it too late.

Well, this is a fairly well understood request, and when I was first
training him I rewarded him immediately just for bringing me an old bone.
Then I progressed to more complex multiple requests and I used variable
reinforcement, with the bone or biscuit as the "jackpot". He still does not
always know exactly what I want him to pick up and bring unless it is close
enough to point out. But I can now be in the kitchen and tell him to get the
bone in the other room, and after a few false starts he at least brings me
something.

I always reward him with verbal praise when he seems to be getting closer to
the desired behavior, and the only aversive in the cases where he might come
back with nothing is just the lack of reinforcement and perhaps a repeated
command with a finger point toward what I want.

Even with that, I requested him to lie down and take the
bone gently, which is still a work in progress, because he
will often grab it quickly and then jump up and run with it
to his place..

Perhaps he is grabbing it out of frustration. You are asking three things
here, asking him to pick up the litter, lie down and then
take bone gently. You need to thoroughly practise these seperately
and then chain them together. When you are training , you need
to be prepared , have the treat ready , dont be ponderous or talk
between instructions . One Muttley gets the hang of it , you can
be a bit more relaxed but while he is learning you need to be
concise or he will feel frustrated or get confused,

He will often grab at a bone, rawhide chip, or other item that is of
especially high value. However, he is usually very gentle if I hand feed him
small pieces of steak, cheese, or other food item. I think he differentiates
between food items that can be eaten immediately, versus items such as bones
that may appeal to his prey drive and chewing instincts.

I think he is doing fairly well with the training, even without consistent
and immediate treat rewards. It may be a form of variable reinforcement,
which is very powerful. Sometimes I just give him a treat for no special
reason other than he is presenting a neutral and desired default behavior,
such as sitting or lying down calmly. I even give him treats or food when he
asks for them, and I've been working on training him to paw at the desired
item, which may be the bag of chews or a box of biscuits.

I am also trying to get him not to paw at me when he wants something,
especially when he is insistent about it. But usually when I respond and ask
him what he wants, and make a suggestion such as "go out" or "get food", he
will perk up and then scratch at the door or otherwise communicate his
wishes to me.

Paul and Muttley
www.muttleydog.com

"sighthounds & siberians" wrote in message
...

He's still not trustworthy around other dogs (and don't bother
arguing on that one - a dog that goes after a puppy that wasn't
interacting with him is not trustworthy around other dogs.

He is trustworthy among dogs who are well-behaved adults, as can be seen in
the video where he was perfectly fine with a pack of balanced and respectful
dogs at CASA. However, on our second visit there, the owner apparently
noticed Muttley paying unhealthy attention to a pit bull puppy we were
playing with in a separate fenced area, and she picked him up to avoid any
possible aggression. I wish she had told me about that before I took Muttley
to Woofstock a few weeks later. Some dogs just don't like puppies or dogs
that are too playful and possibly "rude" in terms of canine communication.
It is highly likely that Muttley did not have good socialization and
interaction with littermates when he was being raised in a poor area of the
inner city, so he issues "corrections" that are inappropriate. Of course,
you already have your mind set on the negatives and choose to ignore the
many uneventful interactions that usually take place.

Most of that is your fault, because you don't know how to read him,
you [have taken] him places he apparently doesn't enjoy going which
probably causes him stress, and then you [haven't watched] him closely.
To you, this may seem like one small problem since you think he's so
good in other areas. To anyone with any sense, and to people who go to
dog parks and events in your geographical area, it's a huge problem.

I have edited your comment above to reflect the fact that these unfortunate
incidents are in the past and I have decided not to risk other dogs, and
ultimately Muttley himself, by taking him to events such as those where
problems have occurred. No sense nagging me to do what I am already doing to
avoid such incidents in the future. You probably don't realize it, but
nagging and digging up bones from the past, with the intention of punishment
and defamation, can have the effect of eliciting defiance and deliberate
repetition of the behavior you are apparently trying to control. I know you
don't care about my feelings, but you may endanger Muttley if you (and
others) succeed in your vendetta.

Yesterday he got into a small bag of recyclables and he scattered
some cans and plastic items on the floor. So I grabbed a new bag
and told him to pick up the items and give them to me. This has
been an extension of his bringing me an old marrow bone to trade
for a fresh one or a biscuit. I pointed to various items and asked him
to pick them up and place them in my hand, and I have been using
a hand signal which consists of a finger point to the item followed
by an upturned palm.

But this didn't teach him to stay out of the garbage/recyclables, or
manage that particular problem.

As I said in another reply, this has not usually been a problem, and if he
makes a little mess once in a while when there are items of high value,
especially if they may be harmful (like fried chicken bones), I do keep such
items where he cannot get to them. It is, in a way, "setting him up for
possible failure", which is another way of saying "proofing a good
behavior". Those who must constantly modify their environment or limit their
dogs' exposure to many situations are dancing around the problems rather
than fixing them. Of course I have decided to avoid future situations where
Muttley might encounter a puppy, and I have also generalized the triggers
enough to know when to be extra vigilant. I may just be lucky to have a dog
I can trust with total run of the house for 12+ hours, keeping him
unsupervised in a camping cabin or hotel room, having new people visit and
being able to trust him with them after a brief introduction, riding in or
staying in the car, and running free in a pack of well-mannered *adult*
dogs.

If I were more skillful, or more motivated, or willing to enlist the help of
a behaviorist, I could probably fix his problem with puppies as well. But
that would involve a lot of effort, expense, and possible risk to other
dogs. So I choose to enjoy Muttley as he is (right now he's snoozing and
snoring on the bed after being out in the cold snow while I chopped
firewood). He is low maintenance and easy to live with. I'm not seeking any
obedience titles or other accolades, other than the frequent remarks others
make about how cute and *well behaved* he is. I must be doing something
right.

Paul and Muttley
www.muttleydog.com