On Tue, 25 Jan 2011 18:27:06 +0000 (UTC), sonofdog
wrote:

[...]
someone asked for a new topic, sonofdog posted question re LLW there were
no aswers

That's because you've finally exposed yourself as an asshole and a
troll.

At this point, Mr. Fake, you're just a chew toy to be played with by
the regulars.

No one takes you seriously anymore, if they ever did.

Asshole.

--
Dogman

"Jo Wolf" wrote in message
...

Fear and Pain have no place in training. Startling a dog is fine as a
correction, once the dog knows and has been started on proofing
(polishing) a command or exercise.
I
Jo Wolf

Surely startling a dog is using fear?
al

On Tue, 25 Jan 2011 14:04:21 -0500, Dogman wrote:

On Tue, 25 Jan 2011 18:27:06 +0000 (UTC), sonofdog
wrote:

[...]
someone asked for a new topic, sonofdog posted question re LLW there
were no aswers

That's because you've finally exposed yourself as an asshole and a
troll.

At this point, Mr. Fake, you're just a chew toy to be played with by the
regulars.

No one takes you seriously anymore, if they ever did.

Asshole.

keep barking

On Tue, 25 Jan 2011 14:00:12 -0500, Dogman wrote:

On Tue, 25 Jan 2011 18:37:09 +0000 (UTC), sonofdog
wrote:

On Tue, 25 Jan 2011 12:04:03 -0500, Dogman wrote:


PS: I'm still waiting for the first clickeroo to take me up on my
offer of $25,000 (and I'd be willing to go higher) to anyone who can
win any kind of field title using only the clicker, much less win a
championship. You'd think that there would be at least one clickeroo
out there who would take me up on my offer, right? But you'd be
wrong. These folks can talk the talk, but they can't walk the walk.
And they know it.

Where is the web page with that challenge ?

No web page. Just Usenet and word-of-mouth, asshole. Check the archives.

If *you* have a genuine interest in pursuing it (yeah, right!), I'll up
the offer to $50,000 and even put the money into escrow.

Contact me by e-mail and we can work out the details. One of those
details is that the entire training process will be filmed (yes, I will
own the rights to the film), so that others will get to laugh, too. I
don't want to keep all the laughs to myself.

I'll even help you find a puppy with great bloodlines, if you want.

So let me know, eh?

first put the money into escrow, then make your challenge official so it
is as you said "to anyone", have guts yet ?

"Dogman" wrote in message
...
PS: I'm still waiting for the first clickeroo to take me up on my
offer of $25,000 (and I'd be willing to go higher) to anyone who can
win any kind of field title using only the clicker, much less win a
championship. You'd think that there would be at least one clickeroo
out there who would take me up on my offer, right?
--
Dogman

If I find anyone who's interested I'll tell them to get in touch with
Mr Dogman
at false e.mail addy, near St lou!

Here's a"clickeroo" you might like
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBvPaqMZyo8

Al

On Tue, 25 Jan 2011 19:14:41 +0000, Alison wrote:

"Jo Wolf" wrote in message
...

Fear and Pain have no place in training. Startling a dog is fine as a
correction, once the dog knows and has been started on proofing
(polishing) a command or exercise. I
Jo Wolf

Surely startling a dog is using fear?
al

I bet he meant to startle a dog with a bucket of beef liver

On Tue, 25 Jan 2011 19:20:09 +0000 (UTC), sonofdog
wrote:

[...]
If *you* have a genuine interest in pursuing it (yeah, right!), I'll up
the offer to $50,000 and even put the money into escrow.

Contact me by e-mail and we can work out the details. One of those
details is that the entire training process will be filmed (yes, I will
own the rights to the film), so that others will get to laugh, too. I
don't want to keep all the laughs to myself.

I'll even help you find a puppy with great bloodlines, if you want.

So let me know, eh?

first put the money into escrow, then make your challenge official so it
is as you said "to anyone", have guts yet ?

I will when I find a taker. It's my challenge, it's my money, so I
make the rules.

If you don't want to take me up on the offer yourself (ha!), find
someone who will. Search Clickerooland and find one.

Oh, yeah...good luck with that!

Asshole.

--
Dogman

On Tue, 25 Jan 2011 19:24:14 -0000, "Alison"
wrote:

"Dogman" wrote in message
.. .
PS: I'm still waiting for the first clickeroo to take me up on my
offer of $25,000 (and I'd be willing to go higher) to anyone who can
win any kind of field title using only the clicker, much less win a
championship. You'd think that there would be at least one clickeroo
out there who would take me up on my offer, right?
--
Dogman

If I find anyone who's interested I'll tell them to get in touch with
Mr Dogman
at false e.mail addy, near St lou!

It's not a false address, Suzy-Q. It works just fine.

Look in my headers for help. It's pretty obvious how to go about
demunging it. Well, maybe not for devout clickeroos, but anyone else
could. Heh.

Here's a"clickeroo" you might like
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBvPaqMZyo8

Here's the kind of clickeroos I like: The kind that don't proselytize.
The kind that don't demean other trainers. The kind that understands
that there is more than one way to skin a cat. The kind who will put
their training method to the test, and not just flap their gums. The
kind who acknowledge the existence of the other three quadrants. Etc.

I used to teach clicker classes, Suzy-Q. Because clicker training is a
very good way to train dogs for certain things, and for certain
people. I even still recommend clicker training to certain
individuals.

But it's not a panacea. It's essentially worthless in the field, for
example. And for most rescue-rehab work, because there just isn't
enough time for it. But if you know someone who would like to take me
up on my offer, I *guarantee* you that it's a legitimate offer. I'll
even fly you over here to observe, provided you promise to leave the
frying plan at home. You can even sit next to Karen Pryor and watch
the fun ensue. Heh.

--
Dogman

1. I did respond to the LLW question. No one else did so, least of
all the numbnuts who posted it.

2. fake, ol' buddy, you're so far behind the power curve that you
aren't even a beginner. Paul knows the words, not sure where he is as a
trainer.

3. I know what Koehler did, and how he did it and why. I also know how
far too many trainers and instructors USED, and are still using, what
they perceive as his methods.... incorrectly, and often brutally.

4. Any trainer or instructor who uses only one "named" method of
training lacks knowledge, skill and experience. Note that "balanced"
training combines methods and shifts in direction to the needs of dog
and handler.

5. When used and fitted correctly, only a collar that is constantly
tight and/or jerked with too much force is painful or "incorrect". All
collars can be and are used and fitted incorrectly. Slip collars and
prong collars should be sold only by individuals trained and certified
to correctly fit, use and teach the use of those collars.
Unfortunately, this requirement cannot currently be met.

6. Just like everything else in life, there are degrees of "startling".
A ball bouncing by can startle a dog when such is not expected. So can
just saying it's name. Does it produce fear? You have to "know the
dog" before deliberately startling it, and have a tool box which
includes more than one method and degree of startling stimuli.... and
the sense to know which to choose. Real life is full of startling
events. Dog training is for use in real life.

7. True that not all good trainers are good teachers. However, there
are darn few good teachers who are not good trainers. I limit my
instruction to the levels and specialty to those in which I am
competent. I constantly read, watch videos, attend seminars, and
observe other trainers.... and I learn new techniques and new skills.
Damn few have come from ng participation. Some have come from
participation on training groups.

8. I use webtv, so utube is not an option with my equipment.

9. Dogman's money is safe. In our lifetime, it's totally unlikely that
any dog and it's trainer will earn a field championship.... or even a
Junior Hunter title.... solely using clicker work.

10. There are more methods to teach attention to the dog than you can
shake a stick at. Some are dependent on the size of the dog. All are
dependent on the relationship between dog and handler. Just because a
dog's head is cranked around to look up at the handler's face does not
mean that there is attention. Just because the dog's head is Not
cranked around to look at the handler's face does not mean that there is
no attention.

11. Body language of the handler is extremely important. So is human
footwork. Quiet hands are crucial with busy dogs.

12. In dog training, the owner is most likely to continue to attend a
class (and succeed) if s/he sees progress from the beginning with the
specific problem(s) that brought them to the instructor. Standing
around while the instructor pontificates at length, and failure to get
rapid attention to problem solving, will also drive the student away.
Training alone does not provide the coaching that most first-time dog
trainers need. Neither do books and videos, although videos are getting
better, and with experience, books make more sense. Generally, though,
it is difficult for this owner to visualize what the book is saying, and
far too often the book and video do not provide alternatives to
techniques. Neither does the "one method" approach. Neither does the
instructor who has limited experience of training multiple breeds....
unless specializing in teaching owners with those specific breeds. (God
help me if I ever have an instructor who has only trained Border
Collies.)
13. Unless you understand what your breed of dog was developed to do,
and what that entails, you will never understand your dog's training
needs.... even just for home and community life. You will have missed
the essence of that dog. Mixed breeds, especially first generation
crosses, may train like one of the breeds involved, or a combination of
both, and can be a hoot to work with as you discover what works best.
There are many surprises. Yes, I could probably train a Border Terrier
to do water retrieving for ducks. It has been done. But the dog would
never be as good as a retriever.... and I'd have learned A Lot about
inventing new ways of getting the right results, because some of the
normal retriever techniques would not work well. A retriever wouldn't
fit down the tube of a foxes den...... {grin} so would be at an
immediate disadvantage.

Jo Wolf
Martinez, Georgia

On Jan 25, 2:14*pm, "Alison" wrote:
"Jo Wolf" wrote in message

...



Fear and Pain have no place in training. *Startling a dog is fine as a
correction, once the dog knows and has been started on proofing
(polishing) a command or exercise. *
I
Jo Wolf

* * Surely startling a dog is using fear?

Is there a difference for you between having something startle you and
having something frighten you?

Because I can assure you that there is for my dogs, and that includes
my fearful dogs, of which I currently have 3. I am not a dog trainer,
behaviorist, etc., but I have expertise in shy/fearful dogs, including
dogs that are that way genetically and dogs that are known to have
been abused. And startle does not equal fear.