http://beyondcesarmillan.weebly.com/index.html

"sonofdog" wrote in message
...


http://beyondcesarmillan.weebly.com/index.html

http://www.dogwelfarecampaign.org/why-not-dominance.php

On Jan 24, 5:25*pm, "Alison" wrote:
"sonofdog" wrote in message

...



http://beyondcesarmillan.weebly.com/index.html

*http://www.dogwelfarecampaign.org/why-not-dominance.php

Did you guys have points you wanted to make?

On Mon, 24 Jan 2011 15:04:43 -0800, sighthounds & siberians wrote:

On Jan 24, 5:25Â*pm, "Alison" wrote:
"sonofdog" wrote in message

...



http://beyondcesarmillan.weebly.com/index.html

Â*http://www.dogwelfarecampaign.org/why-not-dominance.php

Did you guys have points you wanted to make?

no way, just trying to create a new pack

"sonofdog" wrote in message ...

On Mon, 24 Jan 2011 15:04:43 -0800, sighthounds & siberians wrote:

Did you guys have points you wanted to make?

no way, just trying to create a new pack

You need dogs for that. Last time I checked, not many here. How about
wearing a meat dress and hanging out at the dog park?

Paul and Muttley

"Alison" wrote in message ...

"sonofdog" wrote in message
...

http://beyondcesarmillan.weebly.com/index.html

http://www.dogwelfarecampaign.org/why-not-dominance.php

Both of these are very wrong. The first, which I've seen before, is a
typical "bleedin' heart" who looks upon any sort of forcefully imposed
discipline as cruel and inhumane. Such people usually raise spoiled brats
(human and canine), who eventually become problematic and uncooperative and
rebel or build up resentment to any sort of authority.

The second reference is also fatally flawed, although those who try to click
and treat and cajole a dog into acceptable behavior choose not to see it,
and instead accept this as a new scientific breakthrough in dog psychology.
But the fact is that one or more humans with one or more dogs are not at all
like wild wolves or feral dogs. They are much more like the artificially
constrained packs of captive wolves, where dominance is certainly observed,
and sometimes violent displays of aggression are shown when there is a
contest for "top dog".

The difference in a pack where "happy family" dynamics is shown, is that
there is the option of leaving the pack and starting a new one. So two
equally dominant dogs or wolves need not fight, but simply separate and move
out on their own. If they are held captive and forced to share common
resources, there will be occasional attempts to establish hierarchy of
dominance and submission. But eventually, a peaceful resolution is attained,
and the dominant (or alpha) will not need to exert physical force to
maintain the status quo, and just subtle body language suffices.

There are always attempts to discredit people like Cesar Millan, and much of
it is based on jealousy, emotion, misinformation, prejudice, and even the
human equivalent of "fighting for dominance". Those who side against him are
almost always immature, hypersensitive, and closed-minded. And they often
viciously attack those who follow the Dog Whisperer's techniques. So they do
not even practice what they preach when it comes to dealing with people.

The so-called "positive" camp is really an extremist religion, with
self-righteous zealots condemning anything other than their own limited
toolset. They scream abuse when a trainer uses forceful coercion to obtain a
desired result, and then they are so blinded by their tears of rage that
they do not see how just a little physical aversive can snap a dog out of a
harmful and dangerous mindset, and then find happiness at being able to
follow a calm assertive pack leader who takes care of their needs. And once
that bond of respect and trust through discipline is formed, positive
reinforcement and affection will keep the dog and handler on the right
track.

Here is something to think about: http://www.youtube.com/user/wswolfman

Paul and Muttley

On Mon, 24 Jan 2011 21:18:35 -0500, P E Schoen wrote:


Paul and Muttley

so...how you teach an adult dog to attack puppies ?

"sonofdog" wrote in message ...

so...how you teach an adult dog to attack puppies ?

That is just instinct and probably poor early socialization. What's your
excuse?

Paul and Muttley

On Mon, 24 Jan 2011 22:13:50 -0500, P E Schoen wrote:

"sonofdog" wrote in message ...

so...how you teach an adult dog to attack puppies ?

That is just instinct and probably poor early socialization.

call CM

What's your
excuse?

none, I enjoy it

Leaving the wolves out of this...... We are not dealing with wolves,
but with a new species that may be as old as 30,000 years, according to
some new findings. Dogs may be canids, but they are not wolves.

No one dog is exactly like another.
There is no one perfect system of dog training. There is no one perfect
dog trainer.
The more tools a dog trainer, whether training only his/her own dog(s)
or teaching classes where owners learn to train their own dogs through
supervised, guided experience, has, the better the outcome, if that
trainer has an understanding of many canine behaviors, instincts, and
methods of learning.
The clicker is not the all to end all perfect tool; it is merely another
tool.
Cesar Milan is a very special person with very special knowledge and
skills, but he is not holy.

What HAS been discovered by an increasing number of experienced
trainer/instructors who began their training under the old "force"
method, and converted to the non-force food or food and clicker methods
like reformed sinners, proclaiming the new method to be perfect, is that
for some dogs and some handlers/owners modifications of both systems,
used together, can be at least as effective as either, and often more
effective.... while maintaining humane standards. In many cases, the
"blended" training methods have been more effective than either of the
two systems. Along with experience with both training systems, the
trainer/instructor using the "blended" system is much better educated in
canine psychology, behavior, communication, health, and methods of
learning than just 20 years ago. Many have also put time and effort
into learning better methods of training design and better instructional
methods for humans, as well as how to better operate the classes.

Back when Dogman and I started our first training efforts, it was only
the "trainable" breeds that got the real time and attention of an
instructor. Some breeds (terriers, toys and Siberians, often
sighthounds - I had to have special permission from the club training
committee to bring my first terrier to a basic class in 1984) were not
even accepted into classes or private instruction. This meant that only
Sporting and Herding and some Working breeds succeded well in even basic
classes. Those classes were designed to teach the AKC's Pre-Novice
class (look up the rules at www.akc.org). At the first session, dogs
were expected to understand what "heel" and "sit" (automatically,
without a command, every time the owner stopped walking) and "stay"
meant. A good 50% of dogs and owners didn't show up for the rest of the
course, out of total frustration. Many places still use this curriculm
model, if not the jerk-harder method.

Now, more and more basic obedience courses use a building blocks system,
and many entry level classes don't even include some of the Pre Novice
exercises (commands) that are not likely to be needed in a community
setting, or that are very technical or complicated. They may include
such home-useful commands as "get back", informal calling, "go to
place", "wait", and "leave it". Instead of waiting until the dog is 6
or more months old and already has bad habits that need to be
eliminated, classes for young pups include the basics of sit, down,
stay, and walk on loose lead, and "come"..... no polish, just the
basics, using food as a motivator, sometimes including clicker work.
Pups 4 months and up can begin formal obedience training in the same
class as adult dogs.... usually with food, sometimes with clickers.

But really, training begins the day the puppy or adult dog comes home.

Very few top competition dogs, which have to have intense bonds with
their owners in order to be near-perfect in the obedience ring over the
years of competition, have never had a collar correction. But they were
Taught, gently, what the collar correction meant..... "Opps, you
goofed." They didn't start out, in the first session of training, being
half-jerked off their feet when they didn't respond to a verbal command
never heard before, either. Nor were those first commands bellowed.
Today, a collar correction is a twist of the wrist or a jiggle of
fingers.... more of a signal. Commands are given softly or in a normal
speaking volume.... in a happy, confident tone. Clicker work may or may
not have been used, but food or a toy has.

Amanda is used to an obedience competition system which is much
different in design than ours.... much more demanding. I think she'll
agree, though, that one goal in training is to help the dog learn to
think.... to make connections among the steps in an exercise, a game, a
sport other than obedience, and put them together in the right order.
Fear and Pain have no place in training. Startling a dog is fine as a
correction, once the dog knows and has been started on proofing
(polishing) a command or exercise. (If you ever get a chance to watch
the top level of obedience from the Crufts show in England, take that
chance. Impressive.)

I suggest that if you have Not seen an AKC or UKC obedience trial, you
get yourselves to a show that includes this or is solely obedience.
(see the Events section of the AKC web site for dates, times, and
places) Watch the dogs and their owners and how they interact,
especially in the second (open) and third (utility) levels, and compare
those to the raw beginners in a Beginner Novice A or Pre Novice A class.
Watch how they handle the dogs outside the ring, too. Rough handling is
strongly disapproved of. But you will not see dogs in head halters and
body harnesses or on Flexies. Yes, to martingales, buckle collars and
slip collars (that rarely pull tight). Also go to see agility trials,
fly-ball trials, free-style obedience trials, herding tests and trials,
earthdog tests, retriever and hound hunt tests, lure coursing,
Schutzhund or French Ring Sport trials.... and American Temperament Test
Society tests. You will be amazed.

In other words, don't pontificate until you have started to expand your
horizons and have some real basis for comparison, and have seen what Can
be done through training.... and through honing instinct.


Jo Wolf
Martinez, Georgia