"Mary Crewkerne" wrote
"cshenk" wrote:
(Jo Wolf) wrote:

Lets bring it down to basics.

Yes - I refer to the thread title! :-)

I'll do my best but i've never bred dogs or cats. Just fish which don't
count (grin).

It's not as safe for the dog to be bred at age 7 as at age 3.
Complication chances increase,

Any details?

From what I have read and Jo posted, higher incidence of the puppies not
making it which carry their own problems for the mother if they die in
utero.

just like with older human women.

This analogy is false; different species - no menopause; might as well
say that a 7-year-old border collie is only around halfway through her
fertile period, cf a 30-year-old woman.

Oh it's relevant. It's just not a 1-to-1 ratio.

You ask if a 7yo border collie is too old. The answer is both yes and no.
Her and the pups risks go up but that doesnt mean they cant have them at
that age.

Do you want to? That's the question.

It's not the question. I clearly want to. I was asking about any
increased risks to my dog's health. I suspect that if there was
a big increase in risk, someone would have posted some
details by now, and that responders are mainly thinking in
terms of their own concerns of breeding dogs for purposes of
competition and profit, which aren't my concerns at all.

Mary, Jo DID post the risks between the other information.

I suggest you talk to your vet. You are also posting in an oddball
newsgroup that very very few people read. Try rec.pets.dogs.behavior or
rec.pets.dogs.health to see more dog peoples than me and Jo.

My interest in dogs is not financial; my teaching income is about what
many people would say is "party money"..... it's part time....about 12,
sometimes 14, hours a week. Covers my gas, and dog treats, and a little
more. I teach 4 family dog level basic obedience classes and 2 very
small specialty competition classes weekly. I do not currently compete,
and haven't for several years.

Rescue is certainly Not about competition. It is about getting dogs
that need help into new homes with responsible owners, or back to their
responsible breeders when these can be identified. I donate about 30+
hours a week to this effort, on-line, on the phone, on the road, and
working on preventing the need for rescue and re-homing. Although I
work directly with one breed, I have to work with and through many other
breeds' rescues and general shelters, nationwide. I work directly with
our Canadian sister organization and keep up with the work of our
breed's rescue in the UK.

MANY more dogs of all mixes and breeds are born each year than there are
good homes available. It is true in the UK and true in every country in
the world. That is only one reason that I would never breed a bitch
that was not judged to be of superior quality by experts.... regardless
of her age. It is one reason that your bitch should not be bred.

Frankly, I see you as being selfish; you want to breed your bitch for
Your "wants", regardless of her welfare. If you weren't, you would have
accepted more of what has been presented for your consideration, and
would be curled up with her in front of the telly, enjoying your
favorite shows, perhaps even One Man and His Dog. Isn't that the show
that presents herding trials, primarily with working Border Collies?

Talk to your vet.

Jo Wolf
Martinez, Georgia

"Jo Wolf" wrote

MANY more dogs of all mixes and breeds are born each year than there are
good homes available.

Ah Jo, I don't mind the mixed breeds but I'm with you on too many. I'm in
the interesting rescue position with Aunti Mabel who was over bred but no
way to know if her pups found homes. For all we know, the folks who had her
before she was abandoned, drowned all but the 2 'best seeming' pups.

She's a beagle mix, bit taller than classic with longer medium-short silky
fur and an almost scent-hound sort of jaw/face (Thinner, more delicate). At
just shy of 26 lbs, she's a little underweight but only a smidgeon.

Beagles range 1-10 puppies (6 seems average). If we use the average and her
number of estimated births, she's had 72 puppies. There's no way they all
found a good home. Even she didn't until we found her.

I have a problem with people breeding a dog, if they do not have a plan for
the offspring (other than drowning or taking to the pound!).

Excuse me as I discuss a lady down my street who *I* think is a responsible
local small breeder. She has 2 now elderly matched english bull dogs. They
were allowed to have 4 sets of puppies. Normally 4 sets is too many for the
breed (3 can be questionable) but she closely tracked with the vet and the
bitch was up to it. The male and female are under the level of show quality
but well in the happy pet-zone level. Each time, before she let them breed,
she had a list of responsible owners who put down a deposit enough to cover
puppy shots and basic health care. She would have a waiting list of up to
20 (only taking deposits from the first set selected that matched how many
pups on average a female bulldog will have).

You signed a document that your dog would not be allowed to breed especially
with any local english bulldogs and on recipt of dog, you paid in advance
for spay/neuter as well as a 1 year contract with a local vet for basic
insurance. Neuter/spay was scheduled for you at a reasonable time and pups
were not delivered before age of 4 months. (Deposit was returned if there
were fewer pups).

LOL, in my area, there are a lot of english bulldogs, all fixed. They
allowed the 4th breeding mostly because although these are not 'show
quality' not one of them in 10 years now has shown the problems the breed is
prone to. She saved one male and now has an unrelated female who is 2 and
being bred this year. The female comes from a long line of 'not show dog
but healthy'. Hehe her nose is a little too long, her neck and legs as well.
Her legs a little straighter and thinner than classic with bigger feet.

Grin, she's a lovely bitch and they have 15 folks who have a deposit down
but we all know, she won't have that many. All basic shots will be done,
neuter/spay paid for and 1st year vet insurance paid for. She asks for 50$
food cost and 100$ 'time and trouble' over that.

Sorry for dribbling on, but to me, this is a 'responsible' small breeder.
'Pedigree dogs' but not 'show style'. She told me that the show style of
this breed has too many health issues for her comfort and she can't afford
that anyways.

I'll add, she loves my rescue pooches, mixed though they are.

She's a beagle mix, bit taller than classic with longer medium-short silky
fur and an almost scent-hound sort of jaw/face (Thinner, more delicate).

Correction, sight-hound maybe? The thinner sort like a greyhound

Your neighbor is doing a good job. Were you aware that in the UK the
Bulldog folks have been put on notice to start reversing that dished
face and some of the other exagerations that have occured since the
breed was first developed?

The family that has provided (bred) the University of Georgia mascot
Bulldogs for a number of generations has now produced two in a row that
have developed lymphoma.... the most recent one still Very young. The
dogs have never been great (more exagerated, if anything, and they are
breeding pet-to-pet quality), but to add this...... It's raised plenty
of eyebrows among educated dog lovers. They do have a very detailed
safety program for the mascot..... air-conditioned-everything.

Jo Wolf
Martinez, Georgia

"Jo Wolf" wrote

Your neighbor is doing a good job. Were you aware that in the UK the
Bulldog folks have been put on notice to start reversing that dished
face and some of the other exagerations that have occured since the
breed was first developed?

No, but I wouldn't be suprised if my neighbor was!
She's breeding pet level quality for health. if there seems to be anything
amiss at all, you can't pickup her pup until after it's old enough for
spay/neuter which she has done first. I'm not real sure but i think that is
6 months at least? I know it's not the 4 months (middle-end of 4th month,
not just starting 4th month 14-16 weeks of age) for the normal ones.

See, she is aware as are we all that almost every english bulldog here is
her own get and she makes it real plain that they can't breed with their
siblings. It's actually pretty funny because when you walk your dog here,
every 7th or so is an english bulldog. Her preference for settlement has
been folks who can just walk to her house and get advice.

The family that has provided (bred) the University of Georgia mascot
Bulldogs for a number of generations has now produced two in a row that
have developed lymphoma.... the most recent one still Very young. The
dogs have never been great (more exagerated, if anything, and they are
breeding pet-to-pet quality), but to add this...... It's raised plenty
of eyebrows among educated dog lovers. They do have a very detailed
safety program for the mascot..... air-conditioned-everything.

Ouch. Well, my neighbor is breeding pet quality too, but she's real
careful. There was one female she got to breed to her older unfixed male
when I was in Japan but she developed hip issues before the bred her so she
was neutered. I think she was just under 2 years of age. There was another
that developed many chest colds and allergies she also had neutered before
allowing to breed.

She tells me for this breed, never breed before 2 years of age. 3 may be
better. Normally, skip a year then a second breed and evaluate closely to
see if a third set of puppies is ok. I don't know as much as she does but
she's just loving the english bulldog and making happy heathy pets.

She expects the next version to have longer straighter legs and a longer
neck as well as less pushed in face. Still definately an english bulldog,
but not as extreme. She's hopeful about better heat tolerance as well since
the new bitch seems hardier on that.

(Jo Wolf) said in rec.pets.dogs.misc:

Mary, the fact that only two of us have replied to your
question means that no large number of people have even
read it.

Or have read it and agree with everything you've written in
reply to Mary.

Mary is trolling.

--
--Matt.

Matt, that's possible. But if so, she's looked up a goodly number of
things to refute or detract from what we've said. Trolls don't do
that very often. Any question regarding breeding just because the owner
loves the pet and thinks it's perfect deserves an honest reply of
opinions..... especially with an older maiden bitch. Here in the US,
her vet, family, and friends would have pressured her to spay by now,
and the question wouldn't have been asked..... but in the UK, they
rarely neuter-spay.

Jo Wolf
Martinez, Georgia

"Jo Wolf" wrote

Matt, that's possible. But if so, she's looked up a goodly number of
things to refute or detract from what we've said. Trolls don't do
that very often. Any question regarding breeding just because the owner
loves the pet and thinks it's perfect deserves an honest reply of
opinions..... especially with an older maiden bitch. Here in the US,
her vet, family, and friends would have pressured her to spay by now,
and the question wouldn't have been asked..... but in the UK, they
rarely neuter-spay.

My *impression* is she just wants to hear it's ok, do it. She;s made no
reply at all to any queries if she has a plan for the pups. Jo and I sprang
off to discuss a responsible small breeder and how she plans the pups. She
gets a waiting list *before* she breeds and they pre-pay the medical (money
turned back over if not enough pups and she hedges the high side of the
breed with backups just incase there are more).

We've tried the simple english version when she objected to Jo's more
advanced info and the reply was the same.