On Thu, 15 Dec 2011 15:56:28 +0000, Little Lola wrote:

P E Schoen;384970 Wrote:
"Little Lola" wrote in message
...
-
It was not my intention to offend anyone.
I feel that at the age of six, if Lola has NOT been socialized as a
puppy and for her other formative years, it might be difficult to
change her innate personality. She should really have gone into a
quieter home, but I will NOT re-home her into a fourth home.
I've spent alot of $$$ on her already, and from what I know of trainers
here, it's hundreds to bring in someone.
This is why I'm hoping to find some online advice.-

You might get more advice on something like the Cesar Millan forum,
which is very active and quite supportive. One long-time member is
offering her training methods as an on-line book, with some personal
consultation, for a small fee. And there are many experts there who
will gladly give detailed advice. It is most helpful to share pictures
and video clips. Cesar's philosophy is that it is never too late to
change a dog's behavior, and

usually it is the human who needs the most education and training. The
post that discusses her workbook is:
'Cesar Millan's Dog Community and Forums'
(http://community.sessionswithcesar.c...s/t/50498.aspx)

Good luck!

Paul and Muttley 'Muttley's Website: MuttleyDog.com'
(http://www.muttleydog.com)

Goodness, thank you so much, everyone, and this last post in particular
made me feel hopeful and practically teary at your kindness. You're
right -- Cesar does believe you can change canine behaviour, and from
watching practically every show I should have kept this in mind. Even
in dogs that have missed proper early socialization. I'll definitely
take your advice and go to his forum and I'll check out your other
suggestions as well. I've also ordered the book, "Control Unleashed". I
have occasionally, in moments of frustration, wondered about finding
Lola a quieter home, but really, I can't imagine passing her on to
someone else, with the same basic issues. I can't believe someone would
care for her the same way MY family does. I made a decision to bring her
into our home, and mostly she's perfect -- even after a year of dealing
with this behaviour I feel very responsible for her and could not
imagine entrusting her little 5 pound life with someone else. So, we're
in this for the long haul.
Thanks again.

before you decide on cesar's technics please watch this short youtube
movie


http://youtu.be/dSkYVwZKMSs

"sonofdog" wrote in message ...

before you decide on cesar's technics please watch this short
youtube movie

http://youtu.be/dSkYVwZKMSs

Oh, come on now, you know that was just pieced together, totally out of
context, for shock effect and to try to promote the lost cause of the "pure
positive" camp, who are responsible for many unhappy and even dead dogs for
want of proper leadership and discipline. Unwillingness to use the same
methods that dogs and wolves and other animals have successfully used for
millennia is just wrong, and is merely the latest "fad". It is disturbing
that anyone can take that video clip seriously. True, many people attempt to
use some of Cesar's more extreme methods on dogs for whom they are
unnecessary and harmful, but most of the PP people attempt to use treats as
bribes to obtain desired behavior, and lavish inappropriate affection on
their dogs, to the point where they become dangerous and are sometimes
declared unfixable. They may then be put to death or just managed to the
point they cannot enjoy being dogs, and their owners cannot enjoy their pets
or a normal life.

Here is a video I made that is a parody on the one you listed, which should
be titled "Dogs getting a kick out of Cesar Millan"!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NaCPdZ7eO3s

Yes, positive reinforcement is the best way to get good behavior, and really
the only way to teach "optional" things like tricks, but you need some
aversives to teach a dog (or human) what is NOT allowed. And also remember
that pain is just a signal which you use to make decisions, and "hurting" is
not the same as "harming".

Paul and Muttley
www.muttleydog.com

On Fri, 16 Dec 2011 03:56:45 -0500, P E Schoen wrote:

"sonofdog" wrote in message ...

before you decide on cesar's technics please watch this short youtube
movie

http://youtu.be/dSkYVwZKMSs

Oh, come on now, you know that was just pieced together, totally out of
context, for shock effect and to try to promote the lost cause of the
"pure positive" camp, who are responsible for many unhappy and even dead
dogs for want of proper leadership and discipline. Unwillingness to use
the same methods that dogs and wolves and other animals have
successfully used for millennia is just wrong, and is merely the latest
"fad". It is disturbing that anyone can take that video clip seriously.
True, many people attempt to use some of Cesar's more extreme methods on
dogs for whom they are unnecessary and harmful, but most of the PP
people attempt to use treats as bribes to obtain desired behavior, and
lavish inappropriate affection on their dogs, to the point where they
become dangerous and are sometimes declared unfixable. They may then be
put to death or just managed to the point they cannot enjoy being dogs,
and their owners cannot enjoy their pets or a normal life.

Here is a video I made that is a parody on the one you listed, which
should be titled "Dogs getting a kick out of Cesar Millan"!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NaCPdZ7eO3s

Yes, positive reinforcement is the best way to get good behavior, and
really the only way to teach "optional" things like tricks, but you need
some aversives to teach a dog (or human) what is NOT allowed. And also
remember that pain is just a signal which you use to make decisions, and
"hurting" is not the same as "harming".

Paul and Muttley www.muttleydog.com

Paul, you do not know what you talking about,
you good only to be put in Skinner box,
you would like that place and stay there forever

Well, I'm looking forward to watching both of the videos...

"Little Lola" wrote in message
...


Goodness, thank you so much, everyone, and this last post in particular
made me feel hopeful and practically teary at your kindness. You're
right -- Cesar does believe you can change canine behaviour,

Every Dog trainer and behaviourist that too, not just Ceaser Millan.


and from
watching practically every show I should have kept this in mind. Even
in dogs that have missed proper early socialization. I'll definitely
take your advice and go to his forum

You might not be aware but Cesar Millan has been condemned as cruel by
most Animal organisations and by well known Tainers and Behaviourists all
over the world. It might be best for you and your dog if you don't see
advice on his forums.
I would also advise against using techniques that you see on his show.
If you Google Cesar Milan controversey I'm sure you'll find more about it.

There's Kikopup videos on Youtube which might help you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBvPaqMZyo8

Alison

"Little Lola" wrote in message
...


Thanks, Alison. I try not to "force" her to "meet" people at the park,
but if I'm holding Lola due to her being chased wildly by other dogs, I
will pick her up and walk with her a bit. There have been occasions
when people would come over to coo over Lola, reach out to pet her, and
though she shrinks away and sometimes curls her lip I would never scold
her for that. Usually I inform the person that Lola is quite shy and
won't accept a petting. Sometimes by the time I get to tell them that,
their hand has already reached out to pet her. I'd never want to further
Lola's problems by forcing her to submit to someone petting her or by
getting angry at her.
Indeed, you're right, every dog is different, and not knowing Lola's
past sure doesn't help much.


--
Little Lola

I have a cute tiny dog and have the same problem with people wanting to
stroke him and I sympathise with you. Fortunately, Dibby shies away and
doesn't show his teeth. If they reach to stroke him when I'm holding him ,
I turn my body away and block them. If he is on the ground , he runs away
so they can't reach him.

There's a photo of him on my website taken at the local bluebell woods. he
is smaller than the bluebells. !

http://petinfolinks.webs.com/

Alison

"P E Schoen" wrote in message
...
Yes, positive reinforcement is the best way to get good behavior,

yes! Absolutely!

but you need some
aversives to teach a dog (or human) what is NOT allowed.

That is NOT true, Paul, as I have already proved to you !
I used a clicker to train my Jack Russel terrier not to chase or bark at
my Guinea pigs and rabbit.
They are kept in my home and apart from stealing theit carrots , he now
doesnt take any notice of them.
You need to take your blinkers off when it comes to CM.!


And also remember
that pain is just a signal which you use to make decisions, and "hurting"
is
not the same as "harming".

Do you use pain methods on Muttley?

Ali

"Alison" wrote in message ...

"P E Schoen" wrote in message
...

Yes, positive reinforcement is the best way to get good behavior,

yes! Absolutely!

And Cesar Millan also firmly believes that and uses such methods
extensively.

but you need some aversives to teach a dog (or human)
what is NOT allowed.

That is NOT true, Paul, as I have already proved to you !
I used a clicker to train my Jack Russel terrier not to chase
or bark at my Guinea pigs and rabbit.
They are kept in my home and apart from stealing theit carrots,
he now doesnt take any notice of them.
You need to take your blinkers off when it comes to CM.!

Two factors in your case. A typical JRT is not the same temperament as a
typical power breed such as PBT, GSD, or Rottie, for example. And most
individual dogs are cooperative enough that clicker training and rewards may
be all that is needed. Do you have experience with a powerful dog who has
exhibited dangerous aggression? Most clickeroos either use extreme
maintenance (avoidance of situations, muzzling), or recommend euthanasia.
Cesar deals with such dogs all the time on his shows, while Queen Victoria
(Stilwell) deals with little ankle-nippers and clueless owners.

And also remember that pain is just a signal which you
use to make decisions, and "hurting" is
not the same as "harming".

Do you use pain methods on Muttley?

I do not use specifically painful corrections, but when I restrain him from
doing something I do not agree with, it could be considered either
uncomfortable or painful. People make too big a deal over physical pain, and
most of the pharmaceutical industry is built on our desire to lead a totally
pain-free existence. The word "pain" is just too highly emotionally charged
to use when explaining something to someone who is horrified by its mention.
Dogs and wolves use painful corrections on each other, and they are highly
effective, while inflicting no long-term damage.

But mostly I do not even need to use corrections on Muttley, although I may
allow him more freedom to act on his own than I should. Like it or not, dogs
respond instinctively and positively to a calm assertive pack leader
personality that sets clear rules and limitations, even if the methods may
seem harsh. Timing is critical, and most of the methods that clickeroos
disagree with are merely to get the dog's attention and break his
concentration on something he should not be concerned about. A dog who has a
strong pack leader he can trust does not need to take matters into his own
paws and mouth. The pack leader takes care of everything, and the dog can
relax and trust.

Paul and Muttley

"P E Schoen" wrote in message
...

But mostly I do not even need to use corrections on Muttley, .

I'm glad to hear that. Muttley is a lovely dog.
Happy Christmas to you both.
Alison

"Alison" wrote in message ...

"P E Schoen" wrote in message
...

But mostly I do not even need to use corrections on Muttley, .

I'm glad to hear that. Muttley is a lovely dog.
Happy Christmas to you both.

Thanks. Corrections should only be needed for a short time while training
very important things. And they should only be enough to get the dog's
attention in most cases. After initial training, the dog should know what is
not allowed and then positive reinforcement can be used to teach desired
behaviors and tricks. Anyone who continues to use anything more than mild
corrections occasionally after that time lacks true leadership and has not
formed a good bond with the dog.

I am not very demanding and I have learned what Muttley likes to do and what
he prefers not to do. He is just an aloof dog who does not especially crave
attention or enjoy playing or the company of other dogs. Almost all cases
where he has shown aggression is when I have put him in situations in which
he is just not very comfortable. It is easy enough to just avoid those, and
he is happy enough as he is.

Merry Christmas to all, and to all a good night,

Paul and Muttley