I need some help sorting this out..............

We've been waiting for a new schnauzer puppy and are getting a little
impatient. DH is taking to agility and earth dog and one dog is just not
enough for two people! There's a little of a timetable here in that if we
continue to wait for yet another litter to be born that it would make us
miss another summer of DH and agility - waiting for the puppy to be old
enough. As one consideration. And Spenser needs a sister - he really
craves the company of another dog. That's a biggie also but isn't as
affected by the calendar. I *know* a dog is for a long time but I need to
keep DH interested in agility *now*. So it's a balance to work out.

Anyway, there is a woman near us who recently got a one year old Border
Terrier. I don't know the whole story yet but she bought the dog - not from
a rescue group judging by the price she paid - but the dog was physically in
less than great shape - dirty, matted, underweight, but no major problems
they can find. Obviously a less than stellar representative of the BT
breeders or owners. They brought the dog home and have a major personality
conflict with one of their (many) established dogs so it appears they are
looking for another home for her.

We've gotten to see something of the dog at Spenser's agility class (her
daughter is in it with her BT) and she is a sweetheart. They were talking
with someone who had a possible home for her and said she gets along great
with the *other* dogs (just not this one JRT) and loves kids and people.
All the good stuff you want to hear.

My questions for you all concern the potential for this dog to get
interested in agility. She's really laid back. REALLY laid back. And the
BTs I've seen around agility equipment seem to be less than interested in it
for anything other than pleasing their people. Since we really want a dog
for agility, what can I do to try to figure out if she will come around?
The home she's in now is great but she's obviously not going to come into
herself when she can't be comfortable there. So is there a chance that
she'll change and become more animated when she can feel secure?

And - even more than schnauzers - I really don't see any Border Terriers in
agility. Do they do it? Is it an unusual to find one that enjoys it? I
know there are some but is it possible that this totally laid-back year old
dog could ever be one of them? As far as Earth Dog, I'd be willing to let
DH do that with Spenser while the BT and I sat back and cheered them on.

I thought about offering to bring the dog here (since she's getting attacked
daily there) and seeing how it works out. Let her settle in and see if she
shows any interest in playing on the agility equipment and making sure she
gets along with Spenser (which doesn't seem to be a problem). If she
doesn't look like she's going to do agility, they can keep looking for
another home but she'd probably be happier here than at their house.
Problems with that are that *we'd* get attached anyway and I'd hate to let
her settle in and then re-home her again. Maybe just some long play dates
would be better?

It *is* fairly important to us that our second dog also do agility. DH and
I are always searching for things to do together and agility is something
that fits perfectly. We could accept the possibility of three dogs (should
something happen that one of the first two *couldn't* do it) but ideal for
us would not be three dogs.

Anybody got any thoughts about agility potential for this dog? DH is
getting eager to start agility - to the point that he's talking about JRTs!
And corgis! I'd much rather live with a BT! Thanks for any thoughts.

~~Judy

In article ,
queenmother wrote:
My questions for you all concern the potential for this dog to get
interested in agility.

The woman who teaches clicker classes and Rally O up here in
Ithaca has Borders and does agility. I'd be happy to put
you in touch with her.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis -

If you don't understand how things are connected, the cause of
problems is solutions -- Amory Lovins

"queenmother" wrote in message
...


My questions for you all concern the potential for this dog to get
interested in agility. She's really laid back. REALLY laid back. And
the
BTs I've seen around agility equipment seem to be less than interested in
it
for anything other than pleasing their people. Since we really want a dog
for agility, what can I do to try to figure out if she will come around?
The home she's in now is great but she's obviously not going to come into
herself when she can't be comfortable there. So is there a chance that
she'll change and become more animated when she can feel secure?

Could be. BTs are interesting critters. A lot of them aren't terribly driven
on the agility field, but a number do fairly well.

And - even more than schnauzers - I really don't see any Border Terriers
in
agility. Do they do it? Is it an unusual to find one that enjoys it? I
know there are some but is it possible that this totally laid-back year
old
dog could ever be one of them? As far as Earth Dog, I'd be willing to let
DH do that with Spenser while the BT and I sat back and cheered them on.

I see a fairly good number in this area. One of my best friends owns one,
and he's rather a rarity in that he has LOTS of drive (many are medium to
low drive), but also fairly typical of a BT in that he tends to stress
easily and has been quite the challenge to train. Kip has been a real
puzzle, because when he's on, he's absolutely lightning fast. When he's off,
he shuts down completely and leaves the ring. BTs tend to need very clear
parameters. They tend to be cute, so they tend to be babied. And in a way
they ARE very soft--much softer than most of the terriers. But they're also
masters at working the system. It's an odd combination of "stubborn" (I hate
that word and it's not really right but I can't think of another at the
moment) and softness. It can be a real puzzle as to when they're simply not
interested in working for you, and when they are stressed about working for
you.

It *is* fairly important to us that our second dog also do agility. DH
and
I are always searching for things to do together and agility is something
that fits perfectly. We could accept the possibility of three dogs
(should
something happen that one of the first two *couldn't* do it) but ideal for
us would not be three dogs.

Anybody got any thoughts about agility potential for this dog? DH is
getting eager to start agility - to the point that he's talking about
JRTs!
And corgis! I'd much rather live with a BT! Thanks for any thoughts.


Well I'd say that either a corgi or a JRT might make a better agility
prospect than a BT, much as I like the breed. If you're looking for a
training challenge that will fascinate you and keep you guessing, try
her--she won't be easy but could be extremely rewarding in the long run if
figuring out temperament and drive puzzles floats your boat. If you want
something that's fairly "easy," I'd actually go the corgi route of those 3
breeds. If you want extremely high drive, go JRT. Good 12" dogs also include
Papillions or, if you don't want to do AKC, Vallhunds. Going to 16-20", a
Toller is a fun drivey dog, but not.not.not a small Golden!! We've also got
some truly NICE beagles in this area--lovely friendly dogs who are doing
great on the agility field as well.

queenmother said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

And - even more than schnauzers - I really don't see any
Border Terriers in agility. Do they do it?

One of the reasons there aren't more Border Terriers in agility
is because there aren't a lot of Border Terries around, at
least in these parts. I've only seen two in agility and that
was at our Nationals in 2001. At the time, I was extremely
interested in the breed as a smaller agility dog - the two that
I saw run in the nationals were good, but they weren't
enthusiatic, which is what I want in a dog. Fine and good that
a dog wants to please the handler, but, to me, that's secondary
to him enjoying his work.

Of course, my number of data points are only two - there's gotta
be a reason that BYBs are breeding Border Borders for agility
and flyball.

--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

From: (queenmother)

They brought the dog home and have a major personality conflict with
one of their (many) established dogs so it appears they are looking for
another home for her.

That's not unusual with Borders Terriers. Many can be pissy with other
dogs.

She's really laid back. REALLY laid back. And the BTs I've seen around
agility equipment seem to be less than interested in it for anything
other than pleasing their people.

While those dogs certainly exist, I wouldn't consider them the 'norm'.
We have a lot of BTs in our classes, and I know several breeders.... in
fact, I have a BT here now for training. Very few of the dogs we've
worked with are moderate in drive, they're either _very drivey, or laid
back. {very few are of the laid back flavor} And frequently the drivey
ones have some dog issues. A couple would love nothing more than to eat
a Papillon or take on a big dog, and they'll occasionally leave the
course if the outer perimeter of the ring appears to hold promise of
R.A.T.S. They're great dogs, but if you want one with enough drive to
be 'successful' in agility, be aware you probably will have to be one of
the more proactive handlers. They are very much the terrier. :-)

I really don't see any Border Terriers in agility. Do they do it?

Absolutely! And the good ones are _very good. We have around counting
on fingers... and toes 12 to 15 currently competing in our area?

Is it an unusual to find one that enjoys it?

It's certainly _not unusual, as the vast majority of the ones around
here love the sport, and are quite talented. The dog I have here is an
incredible talent, but he likes to try to eat big dogs, the bigger the
better. He thinks he's 10 feet tall and bullet proof.

DH is getting eager to start agility - to the point that he's talking
about JRTs!

Be aware that _many husbands start agility, and drop out early. Mine
started a dog twice... and I ended up with both of them. :-/ They
frequently start, then when they get to the point they're having to run
hard and sequence, and handle, and strategize, they ahem get too busy
to train, or just lose interest. The drop out rate on hubbys is very
high. G

Debbie

I see a fairly good number in this area. One of my best friends owns one,
and he's rather a rarity in that he has LOTS of drive (many are medium to
low drive), but also fairly typical of a BT in that he tends to stress
easily and has been quite the challenge to train.

My best friend also has a BT. This BT is eerily intelligent. His very own
problem solving skills, his way of communicating with people and his memory are
phenomenal.

He has been very easy to train basic obedience stuff, along with a number of
cute tricks (he's a clicker trained dog). I don't know how he would do in
agility though, as we haven't explored that area with him yet. I've heard BT
fanciers rave about how intelligent these dogs are, but I had never met one
before. If my friends BT is an example of a typical BT, the fanciers are right


Dogstar716
Come see Gunnars Life: http://hometown.aol.com/dogstar716/index.html

"queenmother" wrote in
:


And - even more than schnauzers - I really don't see any Border
Terriers in agility. Do they do it? Is it an unusual to find one
that enjoys it? I know there are some but is it possible that this
totally laid-back year old dog could ever be one of them? As far as
Earth Dog, I'd be willing to let DH do that with Spenser while the BT
and I sat back and cheered them on.


We have two wickedly good BT's in alaska. Both reasonably fast - not BC
fast, but fast enough to place. Nice, nice little dogs.

--
BethF, Anchorage, AK

wrote in message
...
From: (Robin Nuttall)

And in a way they ARE very soft--much softer than most of the
terriers.

It may be the difference in location, but I'd have to disagree with
that. The ones I know that are very drivey, are hard little dogs.

I honestly haven't seen that many that are hard drivey dogs. Actually I
haven't seen any. My friend went to the BT National last year, and the
(rather sad) joke was that about 90% of the dogs quit in the middle of their
Standard run and went and laid under the table. And having seen tapes of the
dogs at the AKC Nationals, I'd call those dogs medium, but hardly
super-speedy. We've got 3 in town competing, and we generally see 3 or 4
more at trials.

However, I'll also say that the ones in this area are generally *not* dog
aggressive at all, and I've heard that many on the East coast are extremely
nasty little pieces of work. Kip is extremely friendly to dogs and
people--almost too much so. If anything, he matches Patricia McConnell's
description of the "obsequeously aggressive" dog--he'll fly right up to
strange dogs then fling himself on his back, wiggling madly, or he'll
happily jump right up into a stranger's lap.

I also have to say that the ones I've seen are NOT at all heat tolerant. And
if their coat is stripped out, they're not terribly cold tolerant either.

"Robin Nuttall" wrote in message
news:koxVa.11372$o%2.6316@sccrnsc02...
But they're also
masters at working the system. It's an odd combination of "stubborn" (I
hate
that word and it's not really right but I can't think of another at the
moment) and softness. It can be a real puzzle as to when they're simply
not
interested in working for you, and when they are stressed about working
for
you.


I think I know what you mean. It's not stubborn - it's kind of
independent-thinking. Even more than schnauzers. But I do see a smilar
stress thing in Spenser. I have read one explanation that schnauzers hate
making mistakes and when they realize that they did they don't want to go
back and re-do it. If, for instance, Spenser misses his weaves it is very
difficult to get him back to restart them. He does not want to deal with
it. If we go around a couple of other obstacles and then do the weaves,
that's okay. That works in training but not so well during a trial. If he
misses weaves in a trial I literally end up on my knees begging him to come
back and do them again.

Well I'd say that either a corgi or a JRT might make a better agility
prospect than a BT, much as I like the breed. If you're looking for a
training challenge that will fascinate you and keep you guessing, try
her--she won't be easy but could be extremely rewarding in the long run if
figuring out temperament and drive puzzles floats your boat. If you want
something that's fairly "easy," I'd actually go the corgi route of those 3
breeds. If you want extremely high drive, go JRT. Good 12" dogs also
include
Papillions or, if you don't want to do AKC, Vallhunds. Going to 16-20", a
Toller is a fun drivey dog, but not.not.not a small Golden!! We've also
got
some truly NICE beagles in this area--lovely friendly dogs who are doing
great on the agility field as well.

Problem is, of course, which breed do we want to live with? We've talked
corgis, JRTs, Papillons *and* beagles. And about ten other breeds. Our
life includes many trips to visit friends who may be dogless so it's
important that we have dogs that are easy to travel with and cause a minimum
of disruption (and shedding) as guests. Our first choice is to get a
miniature schnauzer from Spenser's breeder but that doesn't look like it
will happen on our timetable. It's not a definite "no" yet but it's iffy
enough that we're considering other options. We do need to stay
AKC-eligible because of available trials in a reasonable driving distance.
And if we're going to be running a second dog on even a limited just-for-fun
basis next summer, it needs to be already born by now.

Ahh - after all the comments I'm getting here, I can see we're going to have
a lively discussion over dinner tonight!

~~Judy

queenmother said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

This is kind of what I see in them. I suspect most would
do it but I don't see the level of animation that I see in
Spenser. And I really feed off Spenser's excitement.
That's one of my concerns with a Border.

I started instructing a new beginners agility class last night,
I had the small dogs: a couple of Westies, a JRT, a Spenser Dog,
and a Boston Terrier. The Boston was by far the most driven,
with the mini Schnauzer and JRT lagging somewhat behind.

I'm going to do some further checking with some Border
people around here.

You might want to check in rpd.breeds with Jo Wolf. IIRC, she's
involved with Border Terrier rescue.

--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.